The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[untermensche]

Can you lift your arm with your mind? With nothing but your desire?

If so your mind is a mechanism that can make the brain do certain things.

And one day possibly we will understand how.

No, you cannot lift your arm with your mind. Your physical brain generates a signal that you (only sometimes experience as a desire to lift your arm). That brain state set off a chain of physical reactions that lead to the muscles contracting and flexing in a way that lifts your arm. Your "mind" isn't causing anything. It is an effect of some of the brain states involved in causing your arm to move.

The mind, a desire, starts the process.

And the mind uses its slave, the brain, to do it.

Try it. Just "tell" your arm to move with your mind and it will.

 

[fromderinside]

Fair enough. My robot operates by taking sunlight converting it to 'lectricity using a mechanism presumed to run about fifty years. There are measures that can extend it's life, processes that can enhance it's performance, and aspects of where routine maintenance is required. It is designed to use information gained about the world around itself adaptively including being able to produce replicates given proper equipment exists.

Bet yours can't do what mine can do.

It does not make decisions, many times bad decisions, with a mind.

BS. You didn't design or build it so you don't what it's going to do next. If, to an observer, there is uncertainty there is a decision to be made.

 

[untermensche]

It does not make decisions, many times bad decisions, with a mind.

BS. You didn't design or build it so you don't what it's going to do next. If, to an observer, there is uncertainty there is a decision to be made.

The making of decisions is not evidence of a mind. Not by a million miles.

Using one's mind to make decisions is evidence however.

 

[DBT]

You don't see the irony of your remark?

Not when the clear evidence is that I can move my arm with my mind.

There would have to be extraordinary evidence to demonstrate this was not the case.

It is not the mind that moves your arm. It is the overall system that produces both the action and 'your' desire or impulse to move 'your' arm.

The irony of your remark lies in your claim that with 'no understanding of what mind' is (''But with no understanding of what a mind is it is absurd to make claims about what it can and cannot do''), you yourself are making a positive claim of what you claim the mind does.

You are claiming the very thing you claim that cannot be claimed.

Hence the irony.

 

[untermensche]

Not when the clear evidence is that I can move my arm with my mind.

There would have to be extraordinary evidence to demonstrate this was not the case.

It is not the mind that moves your arm. It is the overall system that produces both the action and 'your' desire or impulse to move 'your' arm.

The irony of your remark lies in your claim that with 'no understanding of what mind' is (''But with no understanding of what a mind is it is absurd to make claims about what it can and cannot do''), you yourself are making a positive claim of what you claim the mind does.

You are claiming the very thing you claim that cannot be claimed.

Hence the irony.

I have said this over and over.

Yes all the mind does is control some switch.

It can make the arm go fast or slow. Try it.

But of course the brain and the muscles do the moving once the master gives the command. For there to be coordinated movement the cerebellum must be very active and all that activity is below the level of consciousness.

 

[DBT]

It is not the mind that moves your arm. It is the overall system that produces both the action and 'your' desire or impulse to move 'your' arm.

The irony of your remark lies in your claim that with 'no understanding of what mind' is (''But with no understanding of what a mind is it is absurd to make claims about what it can and cannot do''), you yourself are making a positive claim of what you claim the mind does.

You are claiming the very thing you claim that cannot be claimed.

Hence the irony.

I have said this over and over.

Yes all the mind does is control some switch.

It can make the arm go fast or slow. Try it.

But of course the brain and the muscles do the moving once the master gives the command. For there to be coordinated movement the cerebellum must be very active and all that activity is below the level of consciousness.

So there we have it, regardless of your claim that nothing is known about the mind and what it can or cannot do, you yourself claim to know what the mind is (master controller of the brain/body) and what it does......

 

[untermensche]

I have said this over and over.

Yes all the mind does is control some switch.

It can make the arm go fast or slow. Try it.

But of course the brain and the muscles do the moving once the master gives the command. For there to be coordinated movement the cerebellum must be very active and all that activity is below the level of consciousness.

So there we have it, regardless of your claim that nothing is known about the mind and what it can or cannot do, you yourself claim to know what the mind is (master controller of the brain/body) and what it does......

I know this through direct evidence.

The best evidence possible.

If I want my arm to move I just "will" it with my mind.

Not necessarily the total master of the brain, but the master in this task. A mechanism of action.

 

[Juma]

BS. You didn't design or build it so you don't what it's going to do next. If, to an observer, there is uncertainty there is a decision to be made.

The making of decisions is not evidence of a mind. Not by a million miles.

Using one's mind to make decisions is evidence however.

Remember: when you lift your arm the body knew that it is going to do thst before you do
.

 

[DBT]

So there we have it, regardless of your claim that nothing is known about the mind and what it can or cannot do, you yourself claim to know what the mind is (master controller of the brain/body) and what it does......

I know this through direct evidence.

The best evidence possible.

If I want my arm to move I just "will" it with my mind.

Not necessarily the total master of the brain, but the master in this task. A mechanism of action.

You still disregard your own claim: that because 'nothing is known about the mind' and consequently 'what it can or cannot do' and just proceed make your claim that the mind is the master of brain and body regardless of this flaw in logic.

Not necessarily the total master of the brain, but the master in this task. A mechanism of action

How do you know? Considering you have said that nothing is known about mind and what it can or cannot do?

How do you know what you feel is happening is not an illusion of mind, seeing that you know nothing about mind?

 

[untermensche]

The making of decisions is not evidence of a mind. Not by a million miles.

Using one's mind to make decisions is evidence however.

Remember: when you lift your arm the body knew that it is going to do thst before you do
.

That is a wild claim with no evidence supporting it.

 

[untermensche]

I know this through direct evidence.

The best evidence possible.

If I want my arm to move I just "will" it with my mind.

Not necessarily the total master of the brain, but the master in this task. A mechanism of action.

You still disregard your own claim: that because 'nothing is known about the mind' and consequently 'what it can or cannot do' and just proceed make your claim that the mind is the master of brain and body regardless of this flaw in logic.

You are asking me to disregard clear evidence for some fantasy.

The clear evidence, and I can do this at will whenever I want to, is that I move my body with my mind.

That is the clear evidence of the ball falling to the ground.

You are claiming the ball isn't actually falling to the ground despite the clear evidence.

That would take extraordinary evidence to demonstrate, and you have no evidence of something besides the mind moving the arm when I "will" the arm to move.

Not necessarily the total master of the brain, but the master in this task. A mechanism of action

How do you know? Considering you have said that nothing is known about mind and what it can or cannot do?

How do you know what you feel is happening is not an illusion of mind, seeing that you know nothing about mind?

How do you not know?

Are you paralyzed?

And this illusion theory would take a whole lot of evidence to support and it makes no sense.

There is no reason for anything in the brain to compel me to randomly lift my arm. It serves no purpose.

 

[Juma]

Remember: when you lift your arm the body knew that it is going to do thst before you do
.

That is a wild claim with no evidence supporting it.

Proved a long time ago by Libet.

 

[untermensche]

That is a wild claim with no evidence supporting it.

Proved a long time ago by Libet.

Nonsense.

Bad conclusions made by others desperate for something to say about the mind, derived from next to no data, and Libet did not agree with the conclusions.

 

[DBT]

Remember: when you lift your arm the body knew that it is going to do thst before you do
.

That is a wild claim with no evidence supporting it.

I provided you with the evidence for a distinction between motor action initiation and conscious report of that action, but like everything else the evidence was casually brushed aside without consideration.

 

[DBT]

You still disregard your own claim: that because 'nothing is known about the mind' and consequently 'what it can or cannot do' and just proceed make your claim that the mind is the master of brain and body regardless of this flaw in logic.

You are asking me to disregard clear evidence for some fantasy.

No, I am pointing out that you disregard your own claim ('nothing is known about the mind' and consequently 'what it can or cannot do') and continue to claim the opposite, that you do know what the mind is and what the mind does.....that the mind is the master controller of both brain and body, and in the process, ignore the means of mind/consciousness formation: brain activity.

The clear evidence, and I can do this at will whenever I want to, is that I move my body with my mind.

A fine example of what I said above.

 

[untermensche]

That is a wild claim with no evidence supporting it.

I provided you with the evidence for a distinction between motor action initiation and conscious report of that action, but like everything else the evidence was casually brushed aside without consideration.

You simply label some activity you don't understand as "motor action initiation" and then pretend you understand something about what is going on.

You have no study showing what happens in the brain when a person "willfully" moves their arm.

It is a million miles away from any explanation.

I have no idea why all this pretense to knowledge.

But it is what science has been riddled with for a long time and in the long run this stuff works itself out.

 

[untermensche]

You are asking me to disregard clear evidence for some fantasy.

No, I am pointing out that you disregard your own claim ('nothing is known about the mind' and consequently 'what it can or cannot do') and continue to claim the opposite, that you do know what the mind is and what the mind does.....that the mind is the master controller of both brain and body, and in the process, ignore the means of mind/consciousness formation: brain activity.

The clear evidence, and I can do this at will whenever I want to, is that I move my body with my mind.

A fine example of what I said above.

If you can't move your body by simply "willing" it then you have a point.

If you can then your objection is amazing.

 

[fromderinside]

I have said this over and over.

Yes all the mind does is control some switch.

.....

Yes its amazing how the mind does this all right after it has been done.

Perhaps when one considers things one might be moved to decide something. Usually, though, what is decided is already known by those around one.

No mind is needed though. Just a working brain in a body that is pretty much tuned in to it's surroundings.

Try to separate yourself from your surroundings if you believe one has a mind. Of course you can't.

 

[untermensche]

I have said this over and over.

Yes all the mind does is control some switch.

Yes its amazing how the mind does this all right after it has been done.

You have pulled this information from your backside.

It is some religious belief you have.

Perhaps when one considers things one might be moved to decide something.

It can happen.

But nothing compels me to lift my arm right now and I can just use my mind to do it.

You can too.

Try to separate yourself from your surroundings if you believe one has a mind. Of course you can't.

This is idiotic.

The only reason I know I have surroundings is because of my mind.

My mind is that which is aware of my surroundings.

And that which moves my arm at "will".

 

[DBT]

I provided you with the evidence for a distinction between motor action initiation and conscious report of that action, but like everything else the evidence was casually brushed aside without consideration.

You simply label some activity you don't understand as "motor action initiation" and then pretend you understand something about what is going on.

Nothing to do with me. The experiments and the researchers tell their own story. It's been replicated by numerous studies, Planck institute, Hallett, Haynes, Haggard, Gazzaniga and the list goes on.

All of which you ignore in favour of surface experience with no regard for how 'your' experience is being formed.

You have no study showing what happens in the brain when a person "willfully" moves their arm.

I been providing studies on movement initiation and conscious report regularly for last several months. All of it is typically ignored.