The Senate Torture Report

[Valjean]

The world already knows the US was committing these crimes. This is news only to Americans.

I disagree - it's not news to many if not most Americans.

Exactly - that's my point. This was not covered on network news or in the mainstream press, but readers of The Nation or Mother Jones, listeners to progressive radio, watchers of Moyers and Company or Democracy Now, googlers (is that a word?) of the Huffington Post or Slate and readers of the foreign press saw endless reports and interviews about this.

 

[funinspace]

We still talk about those witch hunts.

We'll be talking about some celebrities ass soon, and will not talk about this ugly torture thing again.

For one thing, Obama stopped it. All he does now is use drones to fire on foreign citizens that may be suspected of wanting to support a crime against an American interest... so completely legit!

Yeah, you can't torture a dead "terrorist"...

Did you say something about a celebrity's ass?

Everybody wants some

 

[Mageth]

I disagree - it's not news to many if not most Americans.

Exactly - that's my point. This was not covered on network news or in the mainstream press, but readers of The Nation or Mother Jones, listeners to progressive radio, watchers of Moyers and Company or Democracy Now, googlers (is that a word?) of the Huffington Post or Slate and readers of the foreign press saw endless reports and interviews about this.

You seem to have misinterpreted what I said, whether intentionally or unintentionally I'm not sure.. My point was not that "American mainstream news hasn't been covering this story." My point is that I think many if not most Americans already knew the US was using torture, and many have been opposed to the practice. It's certainly not news to me that this has been going on...and I've always been opposed to it.

 

[NobleSavage]

Can Obama give a pardon without the party being accused of a crime? What if they don't accept the pardon?

They do not need one. At least to live in the US they do not need one.

And even with a US pardon they are not absolved from crimes committed in other countries by their order.

Yeah, I get that. But the ACLU's idea is to give a pardon as a symbolic act demonstrating crimes were committed. My question is procedurally can they do that?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think so. For instance, Nixon was never charged with anything, but Ford pardoned him. The constitution gives the President power to pardon for offences, not just convictions or charges. It's clear they the people involved in the tortures committed offences against the United States.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think so. For instance, Nixon was never charged with anything, but Ford pardoned him. The constitution gives the President power to pardon for offences, not just convictions or charges. It's clear they the people involved in the tortures committed offences against the United States.

They committed crimes, but they are the working guys, not the Al Capones. Charging them without going after the people that put forth the authorization of this would be a serious crime. Also help to drive another wedge between the CIA and the White House. I'm stunned the CIA does anything the White House asks.

 

[Valjean]

Isn't part of the controversy the fact that the CIA often operates as a rogue agency, doing whatever it wants, without bothering to co-ordinate with the White House, Congress or other agencies?

 

[Nexus]

I heard on NPR last night that they paid these two psychologists 80 Million dollars to design and implement the torture protocols. And these guys didn't even have a background in interrogation.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Of course they never bothered to read the results of CIA and other enhanced interrogations of the past that would have told them:

1) Torture information is notoriously unreliable
2) If the prisoner can survive two weeks of torture, they will never give in
3) Good cop / good cop is the most effective form of interrogation.

 

[maxparrish]

The Democratic Senator Torture Report should be viewed for what it is: a prosecutoral and partisan attack, dropping all pretense at objectivity. I have seen similar tones in a few management audits, and the tip-off to the reader of a scape-goating is when the tone is over the top, and the finger pointing is limited to a select target within a much larger controversy. And when the audit author(s) were actually part of the original management screwup, you know it is a frame job.

Note that:

- The report danced around the fact that both the administration and Congress endorsed enhanced interrogations, and pushed the CIA to be less risk averse. In fact the CIA obtained legal review and approval from the Justice department, and informed Congress on all the basic aspects of the program.

- The numbers have not changed. 39 terrorists were subjected to the program. Of them, three were water-boarded, including the two most vicious and high ranking terrorists. The others were subjected to other treatment, like the dreaded "belly slap" and "attention grasp". Others were doused with water, required be naked, or threatened. Nothing that US inmates and fraternity pledges don't already suffer. (Yawn)

- The CIA "torture" was almost exclusively the approved tactics, which the DOJ found not to be torture.

- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

 

[Bronzeage]

Can Obama give a pardon without the party being accused of a crime? What if they don't accept the pardon?

Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon before he was charged with a crime. Some wanted to see him tried and convicted, then Ford could pardon all day long.

Whether one accepts a pardon or not is irrelevant. A pardon affects the actions of officials, not the accused. The accused is free to claim they did nothing to need pardoning, but it means a prosecutor will not waste time on the matter.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

The Democratic Senator Torture Report should be viewed for what it is: a prosecutoral and partisan attack

According to you, Max, what isn't a partisan attack when the democrats are involved?

 

[fromderinside]

Can Obama give a pardon without the party being accused of a crime? What if they don't accept the pardon?

Not many of those people dodging the draft in Canada or by hiding were't charged. All who ducked were pardoned by Carter. Nixon was charged in a political court. Ford pardoned him and all his associates in the WH so they wouldn't be charged and prosecuted in a criminal court.

They have no choice. Their pardoned sins are no longer substance for the courts.

 

[KeepTalking]

The Democratic Senator Torture Report should be viewed for what it is: a prosecutoral and partisan attack, dropping all pretense at objectivity.

Prosecutorial? When no one has been, or will be prosecuted over it? Hardly. On the other hand you are font of knowledge when it comes to the partisan, as every post you pen simply reeks of partisanship.

I have seen similar tones in a few management audits, and the tip-off to the reader of a scape-goating is when the tone is over the top, and the finger pointing is limited to a select target within a much larger controversy. And when the audit author(s) were actually part of the original management screwup, you know it is a frame job.

Who was the "select target"?

- The report danced around the fact that both the administration and Congress endorsed enhanced interrogations, and pushed the CIA to be less risk averse. In fact the CIA obtained legal review and approval from the Justice department, and informed Congress on all the basic aspects of the program.

No dancing needed, it drives home the fact that that the W administration endorsed torture. Only a few select members of Congress were informed on any aspects of the torture program.

- The numbers have not changed. 39 terrorists were subjected to the program. Of them, three were water-boarded, including the two most vicious and high ranking terrorists. The others were subjected to other treatment, like the dreaded "belly slap" and "attention grasp". Others were doused with water, required be naked, or threatened. Nothing that US inmates and fraternity pledges don't already suffer. (Yawn)

The numbers don't matter, who it was that we tortured does not matter. If the administration condoned the torture of only one person, who was the most vile human on earth, and the CIA enacted that torture, both are guilty of violating human rights.

- The CIA "torture" was almost exclusively the approved tactics, which the DOJ found not to be torture.

And which any objective person can clearly see falls under the definition of torture.

- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Torture is well defined, and although most of the things you mention are torture, there are many other things that are torture as well. The administration and the CIA condoned and carried out torture under the world wide definition of torture. I will note, however, that beheading is not torture, it is either murder or execution.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

Every time, in the real world, that you compromise your values by stooping to the level of your enemies who use reprehensible tactics like torture, you become more like those enemies, and you lose the right to call yourself the good guy.

 

[fromderinside]

The Democratic Senator Torture Report should be viewed for what it is: a prosecutoral and partisan attack, dropping all pretense at objectivity. I have seen similar tones in a few management audits, and the tip-off to the reader of a scape-goating is when the tone is over the top, and the finger pointing is limited to a select target within a much larger controversy. And when the audit author(s) were actually part of the original management screwup, you know it is a frame job.

Note that:

- The report danced around the fact that both the administration and Congress endorsed enhanced interrogations, and pushed the CIA to be less risk averse. In fact the CIA obtained legal review and approval from the Justice department, and informed Congress on all the basic aspects of the program.

- The numbers have not changed. 39 terrorists were subjected to the program. Of them, three were water-boarded, including the two most vicious and high ranking terrorists. The others were subjected to other treatment, like the dreaded "belly slap" and "attention grasp". Others were doused with water, required be naked, or threatened. Nothing that US inmates and fraternity pledges don't already suffer. (Yawn)

- The CIA "torture" was almost exclusively the approved tactics, which the DOJ found not to be torture.

- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

It matters not that congress danced, they and the american people were being systematically lied to. Crimes were being committed and assertions were being made both that crimes weren't being committed and that the procedures used in those crimes were effective.

The report lays out the crimes and debunks the assertions with documented histories and data points secured from documentation recovered from CIA, FBI, the Bush administration, and the Military. If that is a political gesture then maybe we'd better make logic and reason optional human investigative tactics.

Your challenge is toppled by the evidence provided. We appreciate your hand waving for the accused. Your argument has already been debunked and published (see the report based on 6.2 million documents).

BTW what is your rationale for excluding rectal feeding, harsh take down, humiliation, multi-day forced wakefulness and the like form your list of techniques used on the 39, or the fact that all 39 we treated in ways deemed illegal by international agreement signed by presidents Truman and Reagan.

 

[Bronzeage]

....
- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

If it's recommended by Nazis and Communists, what could possibly be wrong with it?

If waterboarding really works, why should that be a limit? Why not knock out a few teeth, break bones, and gouge eyes? I can't see what kind of answers you're going to get by chopping off a head, but maybe the next guy in line will be impressed. Then they'd know what real torture is.

Torture is analogous to faith healing. The torturer has faith in his craft because it produces the results he wants to see. The more he believes, the stronger his faith, the better the results. Anyone who disagrees, simply doesn't have enough faith.

 

[funinspace]

....
- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

If it's recommended by Nazis and Communists, what could possibly be wrong with it?

If waterboarding really works, why should that be a limit? Why not knock out a few teeth, break bones, and gouge eyes? I can't see what kind of answers you're going to get by chopping off a head, but maybe the next guy in line will be impressed. Then they'd know what real torture is.

Torture is analogous to faith healing. The torturer has faith in his craft because it produces the results he wants to see. The more he believes, the stronger his faith, the better the results. Anyone who disagrees, simply doesn't have enough faith.

Yup!

Beyond (fantasy) Thunderdome…Repug Sen John McCain speaks eloquently:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-Senate-Republican-CIA-Torture-Report/383589/

In a nearly 15-minute speech from the Senate floor, McCain offered what is arguably the most robust defense so far of the report's release, referencing his own experience as a prisoner of war in Vietnam and rebuking his Republican colleagues by endorsing the study's findings.
<snip>
"I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering."

McCain added (emphatically) that "the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights."

 

[fromderinside]

....
- The ready conflation of abuse with true torture seems to be pervasive- its also an insult to those who have suffered real torture. When teeth are knocked out, bones broken, bodies bruised by beatings, eyes scooped out, testicles crushed heads chopped off THAT is torture - you know, the stuff routinely and delightfully done in the axis of evil nations and by Islamo terrorists. Any reader familiar with interrogation in the Soviet Gulag, in Nazi Germany and its occupied nations, in N. Korea or N. Vietnam POW camps should know what real torture is.

Sometimes, in the real world, even civilized nations must do a little dirty work - its not a 'tea and cakes if you please' world. Too bad the former Senate adult, Feinstein, is regressing back into puberty.

If it's recommended by Nazis and Communists, what could possibly be wrong with it?

If waterboarding really works, why should that be a limit? Why not knock out a few teeth, break bones, and gouge eyes? I can't see what kind of answers you're going to get by chopping off a head, but maybe the next guy in line will be impressed. Then they'd know what real torture is.

Torture is analogous to faith healing. The torturer has faith in his craft because it produces the results he wants to see. The more he believes, the stronger his faith, the better the results. Anyone who disagrees, simply doesn't have enough faith.

You can find documentation that either the harsh treatments didn't worked or that the weren't need since the information had already been secured by legal FBI and military non-torture techniques.

The day someone comes forth and shows that such methods are useful, that they do get data other methods accomplish, don't get data in a timely manner, is the day I'm going to quit being a psychologist. In eight hours, a single day, the FBI guy got all the stuff claimed as achieved by the methods used by CIA before the CIA used them one the subject.

 

[maxparrish]

The Democratic Senator Torture Report should be viewed for what it is: a prosecutoral and partisan attack

According to you, Max, what isn't a partisan attack when the democrats are involved?

You mean like when the GOP led House Intelligence Committee Report on Benghazi is joined by Democrats and is touted as "more than fair" to the State Department?

 

[fromderinside]

You mean like when the GOP led House Intelligence Committee Report on Benghazi is joined by Democrats and is touted as "more than fair" to the State Department?

Yeah. In that one, politically motivated and lead by republicans, they found there were no State department or administration lapses or misdeeds or cover ups even though the republicans reopened the inquiry three times to find the truth about administration wrong doing.

How charitable of you to admit republicans were forced to report they had gone on a fruitless witch hunt.