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The Testimony of Nathan Son of Isaac Concerning Jesus of Nazareth

Oecolampadius

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Although this isn't a religious text per se, I nonetheless thought this the best place to discuss it. The Testimony of Nathan Son of Isaac Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, translated from the Greek by Ben Armhardt, has been dated to the eleventh century on the basis of paleography but appears to be a copy of an exemplar dating to the first century. The translator states that it could be a modern forgery (tests still have to be done on the manuscript), an eleventh century forgery, and most remotely, an eleventh century copy of a first century exemplar. Nathan purports to be a contemporary of Jesus, and he debunks the miracles and resurrection of Jesus. A friend at work showed me his copy and lent it to me, asking what I thought of it. I really don't know what to make of it; it appears to be written in a very academic format and well documented, but the possibility of its actually having first century roots seems far-fetched. Just for grins, though, I bought a copy and passed it on to an impressionable Christian acquaintance to see if it will shake his faith ;-)
 
More likely this book is a hoax or practical joke perpetrated by the pseudonymous "translator". On another forum, it was pointed out that "Ben Armhardt" is an anagram for "Bart D. Ehrman", a well-known New Testament scholar. I'll bet that the supposed Greek codex (forged or not) doesn't even exist.
 
I'm surprised there's not more debunking counter-Gospel documents around since, according to skeptics, Jesus never did the things claimed. Where is all the contemporary Roman or Jewish propaganda against the fact claims of Christianity?

Imagine how many fewer Christian martyrs there would have been if the biblical accounts of Jesus' miracles could have been properly debunked by the authorities - who had all the money and power.
 
There were many accounts and 'gospels'. Not all presented a supernatural Jesus. One more account more or less changes nothing.

Being asked to read and what you think is really I hope I can hook this guy.

There is no more or less proof of any accounts of JC. The canonical New Testament writhings were selected more or less by political consensus, not based on any validation of the stories.

I doubt Christians who are raised or come to believe the NT as truth have any idea of how it came to be, and all the handwritten translations which undoubtedly had embellishments added.
 
I'm surprised there's not more debunking counter-Gospel documents around since, according to skeptics, Jesus never did the things claimed. Where is all the contemporary Roman or Jewish propaganda against the fact claims of Christianity?

Imagine how many fewer Christian martyrs there would have been if the biblical accounts of Jesus' miracles could have been properly debunked by the authorities - who had all the money and power.

Well, let's not forget that starting with the 4th century, it was Christians who had money and power. Very easy for them to destroy any debunking works under the name of "eliminating heresy".

Also, in the time of the Gospels and Epistles, Christianity was a minor splinter of a small movement. Why would those with money and power bother debunking Christianity when none of them could have known that in three centuries it would become a world power?

It would be comparable to the Heaven's Gate cult. If, say, in three hundred years, Heaven's Gate becomes strong, then its apologists will ask, "Why didn't NASA launch a probe to inspect the tail of the Hale-Bopp comet?? They could have proved there wasn't an alien spacecraft there and decisively DEBUNKED the early claims." Of course, we know why NASA didn't do that--they have better things to do with their time and money.

And suppose someone did uncover that the miracles of Jesus (written down decades after they supposedly happened) likely didn't happen? How would they let the world at large know? Hold a press conference? Write a blog? Film a documentary? No, other than bother their friends into annoyance, about all they can do is write a book.

And what does that mean? In first-century Palestine, writing a book was expensive, costing hundreds or thousands of today's dollars. First you have to find someone who knows how to write (literacy was abysmally low), you have to find suitable materials to write on (they didn't have reams of college-ruled paper for sale,) then you have to dictate your ideas to them while they slowly write it down word by word. But assuming you get the book written, now you need to publish it for a mass audience.

And what does that mean? Millions of copies sold in all major bookstores? Getting the New York Times to review it? Author tours around the country? Of course not. Spreading books far and wide wasn't easy as it is today. "Write a book" and you might hold the only copy in existence for years, until you can go through the expensive process of making a single copy.

And to what end? Do people who hold beliefs about the fantastic enjoy having their beliefs debunked? Do they love learning that what they've been raised to believe is an exaggerated lie? Do people appreciate it when all the amazing stories they've told and retold each other probably never happened? A quick check of my Twitter feed suggest the opposite.

Debunking the miraculous is rarely a crowd pleaser. Just look at the vitriol thrown at the kind folks behind Snopes.com. All they do is get to the bottom of the nonsense that people enjoy--that people LOVE--to share with each other. And for their efforts, they are accused of being paid corporate shills, of being anti-American, of being Communists. It's no wonder to me that when one person promises eternal life accompanied by amazing magic tricks, and another person says "Can you prove that?", it's usually the first person that gains the most market share.
 
Where is all the contemporary Roman or Jewish propaganda against the fact claims of Christianity?

image.jpg

"All heretics we pronounce mad and foolish ... these are to be visited first by the divine vengeance, and secondly by the stroke of our own authority, which we have received in accordance with the will of Heaven."


Thus spoke Theodosius in 380 (Norwich, p118).

A new and darker culture emerged. In 397, at the 4th Church Council of Carthage, the synod drew up a list of approved books of the Catholic canon and at the same time instituted a prohibition on anyone, including Christian bishops, from studying pagan literature. Non-Christian teachers, army officers, public employees and judges were dismissed from office. Early in the 5th century John Chrysostom (erstwhile patriarch in Constantinople) recorded with delight:

"And as for the writings of the Greeks, they are all put out and vanished"

– On John, Homily 2, Trinity, Sophists, Philosophers, 5.


He goes on to describe Pythagoras as a sorcerer and barbarian!

Within half a century, imperial edicts required the burning of non-Christian books. Many libraries of antiquity had been attached to temples, academies, and public baths and therefore suffered in the general attack by Christians on these vulgar pagan edifices. Plato's Academy, and the last of the pagan schools, were closed by Justinian in 529.
...
Some classic writers – Homer (in whose work Christians saw allegories), Plato and Aristotle (philosophies which 'anticipated' Christianity'), and some poetic and rhetorical works (Juvenal, Ovid and Horace) useful as teaching aids – were preserved; most were destroyed.

Such was Christian hostility to general learning and practical knowledge that access to scripture itself was forbidden to any lay-person who might still be literate. Preoccupied with ceremonial and holy pageants, within a few generations most members of the priesthood could not even read their own Bible. Ritual had replaced reading, iconography had replaced words.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/science.html
 
Hey...I read The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. Better known as 'Lamb'. A fun read.
 
Or, more likely IMO, Prof. Ehrman is merely the butt of a lame practical joke.

Lame? I think it's funny as hell, given some of the X-rated material in the Testimony. That's what those eggheads on TextKit were arguing about, wasn't it?
 
Although this isn't a religious text per se, I nonetheless thought this the best place to discuss it. The Testimony of Nathan Son of Isaac Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, translated from the Greek by Ben Armhardt, has been dated to the eleventh century on the basis of paleography but appears to be a copy of an exemplar dating to the first century. The translator states that it could be a modern forgery (tests still have to be done on the manuscript), an eleventh century forgery, and most remotely, an eleventh century copy of a first century exemplar. Nathan purports to be a contemporary of Jesus, and he debunks the miracles and resurrection of Jesus. A friend at work showed me his copy and lent it to me, asking what I thought of it. I really don't know what to make of it; it appears to be written in a very academic format and well documented, but the possibility of its actually having first century roots seems far-fetched. Just for grins, though, I bought a copy and passed it on to an impressionable Christian acquaintance to see if it will shake his faith ;-)

This is sounding more and more like a spoof of the Secret gospel of Mark in Morton Smith's find of a purported Letter of Clement of Alexandria to Theodore.

Similarity #1: The Letter to Theodore was supposed to be a response by Clement of Alex. to a question posed by Theodore in a previous letter. In it, Theodore had reported that certain Gnostics in his area were saying that a secret version of Mark existed in which Jesus initiates a disciple into the "mystery of the kingdom of God" where there was sex involving "naked man (Jesus) with naked man (a young disciple)." Clement responded that this was not true. He admits that his church did have a secret version of Mark, and gave the except to show that in it there was noting about "naked man with naked man" (as in having sex).

Similarity #2: Clement explained that the reason it was secret was because it had esoteric doctrines that need to be hidden as if by seven veils. It was Stephen Carlson who connected his talk of veiled doctrines *had* to be a rip off of the modern "Dance of the Seven Veils" by Salome before king Herod Philip, written by Oscar Wilde in 1891, "proving" that the whole thing was a modern forgery. Smith dated the hand of the copy of this letter to the 17th or 18th century, which would predate the play's publication and performances. My own sleuthing found examples of seven veils in use among medieval "magicians" as well as by Theosophists But there was a provocative dance scene in which Salome is naked under veils and sexually titillates king Herod Philip.

Similarity #3: There are other similarities. Robert Eisler had proposed (The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist, 1933) that the Slavonic paraphrase of Josephus' Judean War, with manuscripts going back to the 10th-11th century CE, had readings from an early Aramaic Capture of Jerusalem by Titus. This hypothesis was not supported by the modern edition of Slavonic Josephus by Leeming & Leeming, but why should that stop elements of this story being used in a parody? At one point, one biblical scholar proposed that the Slavonic Josephus was a medieval forgery.

Similarity #4: I almost forgot about the Essene Gospel of Peace, supposedly transcribed by someone who saw a manuscript of this work, in Aramaic, in the "Secret Vatican Archives," and published in English with commentary by Edmond Bordeux Szekely. The Vatican denies that any such Aramaic mss is in their archives (which are not "secret" but "private" and as such are not publically circulated.) At any event, he had already established a New Age Community in Mexico and lived off book donations and gifts from rich members, but this book gave him a lot of publicity.

This is a spoof, and may well have been written by Ehrman, who is a little kooky himself if you ask me. I believe he agrees with Carlson that Smith set up the whole Secret Mark thing as a hoax on modern scholars. That he got US Evangelicals to bite is amusing. Tee hee! "Woes will certainly come, but woe to the man through whom they come."

DCH
 
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This is a spoof, and may well have been written by Ehrman, who is a little kooky himself if you ask me. That he got US Evangelicals to bite is amusing. Tee hee! "Woes will certainly come, but woe to the man through whom they come."

DCH

Hmmm....Possibly. That he got Evangelicals to bite is no real surpise. His background, with his intellectual roots in Moody Bible Institute, prepares him well to speak to the Evangelicals.
 
wrong thread
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The Testimony Of Tidus Bogus son of Ignoramicus reveals all the truths of Jesus. It proves everything.

I'll have it finished in a few weeks .Believable fiction is hard work.
 
Ah, the trials of the modern internet atheist apologist; accept it as genuine, because it contradicts Christianity, or reject it, because it would provide additional proof of Jesus' existence? Sore decisions...
 
Er- Poli, I trust you're aware that Ehrman himself is an historicist; his book Did Jesus Exist? concludes that he did exist as an individual man. (Unlike G.A. Wells' older work by the same title, which concludes he didn't.)

If it is a spoof by Ehrman, I am quite curious what his point is.
 
Yes, it was just a joke.

I quite like Ehrman, met him briefly some several years ago while attending a panel on which he was a guest. Very shrewd, well-read scholar. I have a hard time believing that he would perpetuate such a hoax, though I suppose it must be someone well-informed. If one thing is to be learned from past Scriptural hoaxes, it is that sometimes the hoaxer IS who you would least expect. I have trouble imagining his motivations though. I never thought Ehrman bore any special enmity toward the "miracle gospel" itself, only the way it and its canonical antecedents get interpreted in the present.
 
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Ah, the trials of the modern internet atheist apologist; accept it as genuine, because it contradicts Christianity, or reject it, because it would provide additional proof of Jesus' existence? Sore decisions...

Well, it doesn't need to be a decision. We can take whichever position is more useful in any given discussion. The end goal of luring the faithful away from salvation and have them join us in being tortured for eternity in the pits of Hell is worth any means we employ to reach it.

That's our secret motivation which we hide behind the lies of "searching for the truth" or "honest questioning" or whatever bullshit we come up with that day, so don't tell anyone that we've admitted to it.
 
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