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The Thought of, Critiques, Sources on Marx

rousseau

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Before I get into this thread just a quick preface:

Let's not make this thread an argument over socialism, because that's not what it's about.

I heard it said at this forum a little while ago that Marx is one of the most oft-quoted philosophers, and yet one of the least understood. That got me to thinking that it may be worthwhile to at least understand what his thought was, given how influential it's been in the past century.

I have a bit of an idea of the big stuff from indirect sources, but I also wonder what important ideas he had that might not be as public. Critiques from major thinkers would be welcome as well.

As an aside from that, if anyone has recommendations for sources to read they'd be more than welcome. I did a bit of searching there and found a recommendation for a Marx-Engels reader that I can link to later, but I haven't read it yet.
 
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“In reality, the laborer belongs to capital before he has sold himself to capital. His economic bondage is both brought about and concealed by the periodic sale of himself, by his change of masters, and by the oscillation in the market price of labor power. Capitalist production, therefore, under its aspect of a continuous connected process, of a process of reproduction, produces not only commodities, not only surplus value, but it also produces and reproduces the capitalist relation; on the one side the capitalist, on the other the wage-laborer.”
― Karl Marx, Das Kapital

His criticisms of capitalism are as true today as when he wrote them. Some more so.

The master/servant aspect of capitalism has not changed.

It is a small baby step removed from actual slavery.

But it is cheaper than actual slavery.
 
The professor in a political science class I took said regardless of what you think of him Marx is considered the greatest social scientist of all time. In his time his social analysis and commentary was correct.

There was a dramatic social change as he predicted, not in the way he predicted. He thought workers around the world would spontaneously revolt. The change happened through the rise of democracy and two world wars. From what I remember from Mark the USA and the west is far closer to what he envisioned than any of the communist experiments. The idea of the individual. Upward mobility. Jobs and Wozniak starting Apple in a garage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_needs

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs![1][3][4]
 
A book I read quite a while ago, which was actually written in 1940 but which still holds up, I believe, is Edmund Wilson's  To_the_Finland_Station. It has an emphasis on Marx/Engels, but is a survey of socialism from the French Revolution through to Lenin, so it puts Marx in his historical/philosophical context. I remember being surprised that a lot Marx's insights into the relationship of labor and capital were derived from pro-capitalist writers, who thought for example that driving the costs of labor down was a good thing. Marx took their formulations and added a proscriptive element.
 
A book I read quite a while ago, which was actually written in 1940 but which still holds up, I believe, is Edmund Wilson's  To_the_Finland_Station. It has an emphasis on Marx/Engels, but is a survey of socialism from the French Revolution through to Lenin, so it puts Marx in his historical/philosophical context. I remember being surprised that a lot Marx's insights into the relationship of labor and capital were derived from pro-capitalist writers, who thought for example that driving the costs of labor down was a good thing. Marx took their formulations and added a proscriptive element.

I never really saw what became communism was what Marx was predicting.
 
A book I read quite a while ago, which was actually written in 1940 but which still holds up, I believe, is Edmund Wilson's  To_the_Finland_Station. It has an emphasis on Marx/Engels, but is a survey of socialism from the French Revolution through to Lenin, so it puts Marx in his historical/philosophical context. I remember being surprised that a lot Marx's insights into the relationship of labor and capital were derived from pro-capitalist writers, who thought for example that driving the costs of labor down was a good thing. Marx took their formulations and added a proscriptive element.

I never really saw what became communism was what Marx was predicting.
Maybe that's because none of the nations that we called communistic were ever actually communistic. Marx outlined a stepwise process of getting to communism. Those nations we called communistic had only gotten to the first step, national socialism, where there is a strong central government necessary to forcibly eliminate private ownership through state confiscation of all wealth and means of production. This wealth was then to be distributed to the people. The final step, communism, is the dissolution of the government leaving the population to commonly (and freely, without government control) share the means of production, labor, and wealth it produced.

It seems that Marx's error was in a misunderstanding of human nature. The tremendous power wielded by those in government positions of those national socialist nations has been something they have been unwilling to surrender. Or as E. O. Wilson, a biologist specializing in ants, said about communism, "Good idea, wrong species".
 
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A book I read quite a while ago, which was actually written in 1940 but which still holds up, I believe, is Edmund Wilson's  To_the_Finland_Station. It has an emphasis on Marx/Engels, but is a survey of socialism from the French Revolution through to Lenin, so it puts Marx in his historical/philosophical context. I remember being surprised that a lot Marx's insights into the relationship of labor and capital were derived from pro-capitalist writers, who thought for example that driving the costs of labor down was a good thing. Marx took their formulations and added a proscriptive element.
And that in a nutshell is the central problem with Marx's thought. The pro-capitalist writers he got his understanding of capitalism from, Ricardo chief among them, didn't understand capitalism. Hardly anyone did at that time -- the "marginal revolution" hadn't happened yet. Gossen had published but nobody paid him any attention; Jevons, Menger and Walras were independently rediscovering marginalism at the same time Marx was writing; Marshall didn't broadcast the theory to a wider audience until after Marx was dead. So we have, as it were, the anomalous situation of half the population of the modern world being under the sway of a 19th-century creationist whose claim to fame was proving Lamarck's Theory of Evolution couldn't work without Divine Intervention.
 
A book I read quite a while ago, which was actually written in 1940 but which still holds up, I believe, is Edmund Wilson's  To_the_Finland_Station. It has an emphasis on Marx/Engels, but is a survey of socialism from the French Revolution through to Lenin, so it puts Marx in his historical/philosophical context. I remember being surprised that a lot Marx's insights into the relationship of labor and capital were derived from pro-capitalist writers, who thought for example that driving the costs of labor down was a good thing. Marx took their formulations and added a proscriptive element.

I never really saw what became communism was what Marx was predicting.
Maybe that's because none of the nations that we called communistic were ever actually communistic. Marx outlined a stepwise process of getting to communism. Those nations we called communistic had only gotten to the first step, national socialism, where there is a strong central government necessary to forcibly eliminate private ownership through state confiscation of all wealth and means of production. This wealth was then to be distributed to the people. The final step, communism, is the dissolution of the government leaving the population to commonly (and freely, without government control) share the means of production, labor, and wealth it produced.

It seems that Marx's error was in a misunderstanding of human nature. The tremendous power wielded by those in government positions of those national socialist nations has been something they have been unwilling to surrender. Or as E. O. Wilson, a biologist specializing in ants, said about communism, "Good idea, wrong species".

The rationale of the far left is Soviet and Chinese systems were not really communism. My question yet to be answered on the forum, under true communism how are decisions made on national level and how are rules set? How are labor and resources allocated to research and production, who sets what gets produced and how much? Under a national communism you would still have an some form of representation and hierarchy. It would be inescapable. Marx view was from his time. not the large scale populations and economies of today. Capitalism then is not capitalism today. Maybe we need a new name. The dialectic? Opposing forces grind out a new system thesis over time. Capitalism in the day was harsh.

Communism is ill defined at best.J read Mark in the 70s. For me it means common ownership of the means of production and profit not part of the economy. Tribal in a sense. A Native American tribe but on a national scale. Even at that they had trade and forms of currency between tribes.
 
Before I get into this thread just a quick preface:

Let's not make this thread an argument over socialism, because that's not what it's about.

I heard it said at this forum a little while ago that Marx is one of the most oft-quoted philosophers, and yet one of the least understood. That got me to thinking that it may be worthwhile to at least understand what his thought was, given how influential it's been in the past century.

I have a bit of an idea of the big stuff from indirect sources, but I also wonder what important ideas he had that might not be as public. Critiques from major thinkers would be welcome as well.

As an aside from that, if anyone has recommendations for sources to read they'd be more than welcome. I did a bit of searching there and found a recommendation for a Marx-Engels reader that I can link to later, but I haven't read it yet.

Marx is an interesting figure. Overtly political to the point of being under-read for political reasons, which should be a lesson to all academics in a way. But he was and is one of the finest social theorists of his day, and his works remain the benchmark for analyses of capitalism as a full system. Das Kapital was unprecedented, and I would challenge any claim to have outdone it as a full scale analysis of the system. I think it is quite telling that even his most bitter detractors nevertheless borrow his terminology and often many of his assumptions as well! His influence on political theory is impossible to erase as well, and my own field is profoundly shaped by his portrayal of power relations in society generally. During the cold war, this had to be on the down low in the US, so people would cite sources in such a way as to keep them at a few degrees of remove from Marx himself; it is a guessing game I find amusing when reviewing 60's and 70's era literature.

I am not a Marxist, but I think his theories are worth extended study, and his insistence on reasonable empirical support for most statements was a rare dedication for a social scientist of his generation. His economics have become outdated by the prevalence of stock and other imaginary products; he did not believe that material goods and their production would ever become as thoroughly eclipsed by speculation as they have now become (though he may well be correct about the ultimate fate of such speculations) as well as by the rise of robotics in material production -- our materials produce materials, something he could not have predicted but which throw his theory into disarray.

The bibliography of Marxism is absurd in its size and breadth, very hard to wade through and I cannot claim to be expert in it. There's a new biography of Marx out this year, which has inspired a fair amount of comment. I have been meaning to check it out, but haven't had the time yet. Royce's "Classical Social Theory and Modern Society" is another recent entry, which I like a great deal. It covers Durkheim and Weber as well as Marx, but I think this actually ends up explaining his role in sociology and economics better than if it were just focused on the man himself - provides critical context in terms of what was and was not filtered from his writing into scholarly consensus. Looking back into the original Western revival of Marx, Hal Draper of the Berkeley FSM produced a whole multivolume series on Marx under the title "Theory of Revolution" and actually covering a host of topics very thoroughly over several books through the 70's. Influenced how a lot of people felt about Marx during an era of renewed social activism, very biased in his approach, but informative in an "emic perspective" sort of way.

The Oxford Very Short Introduction to Marx is what I hand to interested students, it is a surprisingly effective summary. But then, I teach freshpersons, so...
 
I am not a Marxist, but I think his theories are worth extended study, and his insistence on reasonable empirical support for most statements was a rare dedication for a social scientist of his generation.
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. ... What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money… Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man — and turns them into commodities. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general." - On the Jewish Question
 
I am not a Marxist, but I think his theories are worth extended study, and his insistence on reasonable empirical support for most statements was a rare dedication for a social scientist of his generation.
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. ... What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money… Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man — and turns them into commodities. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general." - On the Jewish Question

Hence, "most". I put no one on a pedestal, I assure you.
 
I am not a Marxist, but I think his theories are worth extended study, and his insistence on reasonable empirical support for most statements was a rare dedication for a social scientist of his generation.
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. ... What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money… Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man — and turns them into commodities. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general." - On the Jewish Question

Hence, "most". I put no one on a pedestal, I assure you.
But what's your evidence for "most"? Marx's writings are loaded with empirically unsupported statements.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_Marxism

Marx had predicted that capitalism as practised in his day would lead to a dystopian world where most people would soon be living lives of squalor and misery while a few people would be immensely rich. By the late 1800's it was obvious this gloomy prospect (and Marx's solution to the problem) were wrong. From there the whole Marxism enterprise was picked up by the loonies and lead to Marxism becoming a distorted set of theories that lead to Lenin and the Bolsheviks. The paranoid madness of Stalin had nothing much to do with Marxism as expounded by Marx. Marx would have been heart broken had he lived to see it all.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_Marxism

Marx had predicted that capitalism as practised in his day would lead to a dystopian world where most people would soon be living lives of squalor and misery while a few people would be immensely rich. By the late 1800's it was obvious this gloomy prospect (and Marx's solution to the problem) were wrong.
By this, do you mean that you are you actually unaware of the existence of the majority of the mostly-desperately-poor global population? The global median income is about $4,000/yr, and that's only counting those who have incomes and a regular address to be polled at. Wealth inequality is at its steepest point in known history.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_Marxism

Marx had predicted that capitalism as practised in his day would lead to a dystopian world where most people would soon be living lives of squalor and misery while a few people would be immensely rich. By the late 1800's it was obvious this gloomy prospect (and Marx's solution to the problem) were wrong.
By this, do you mean that you are you actually unaware of the existence of the majority of the mostly-desperately-poor global population? The global median income is about $4,000/yr, and that's only counting those who have incomes and a regular address to be polled at. Wealth inequality is at its steepest point in known history.

I am quite aware of that. But that has little to do with Marxism as such. In Africa, after the collapse of colonialism, a number of newly freed states adopted Marxist socialism programs based on theories taught to the leaders of these nations by Russian and Chinese advisers, many who as young men had attended Chinese and Russian universities. None of these nations prospered under such programs. These nations drifted into authoritarian kleptocracies as their Marxist based economies failed to work the advertised miracles.

While Marx did some solid work, his overall program did not in fact turn out to predict the immanent future collapse of capitalism. To paraphrase Huxley, The tragedy of economics, a beautiful theory slain by an ugly little fact. A problem with bad economic theories. Such as Supply Side economics, or Neoliberalism. Witness Kansas. But bad economic programs often refuse to die quickly and cleanly.

And this is a problem, economic theories grow up to be ideologies. Often bad ideologies that will not die even as they prove futile. Good models that more or less work well, such as in Scandinavia, tend to get ignored.

What was Marxism as envisioned by Marx? Understanding the "Crisis of Marxism" is a key to understanding that.
 
I don't think "Marxism" has anything directly to do with Marx, at least no more than the summer blockbuster is "inspired by" some true story. What I'm not getting is why you don't feel the current state of extreme wealth division and near-universal poverty is a demonstration of exactly the failures Marx the actual theorist predicted Capitalism would lead to. It did, and it does.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_Marxism

Marx had predicted that capitalism as practised in his day would lead to a dystopian world where most people would soon be living lives of squalor and misery while a few people would be immensely rich. By the late 1800's it was obvious this gloomy prospect (and Marx's solution to the problem) were wrong.
By this, do you mean that you are you actually unaware of the existence of the majority of the mostly-desperately-poor global population? The global median income is about $4,000/yr, and that's only counting those who have incomes and a regular address to be polled at. Wealth inequality is at its steepest point in known history.

sala%20fig%201.JPG


(1987 dollars)
 
Poverty in the USA today is not what it was whem I was born in 1951.

I do not know the metric used. The UN has reported a steady decline in global poverty.

There have been those on the forum who argue modern capial;ism is bad and communism is good. The fact that the main communist experiments that failed are explauned as not being true communism.

Collectivizarion failed catastophically in Chima and Russia. The Chinese collapse of agriculture killed millions. The saying is capitalism is the worse system, until something better comes along. Despite our ongoing problems free market capitalism has for more benfits than negatives.
 
Ah, the joy of rhetorical games! One can have failed Marxist states, failed capitalist states, failed Socialist states and of successful mixed model states. The Nordic states seem to be working quite well. In the US, the top 10% are doing well, lower down, maybe not so well, and the experiments of Louisiana, and Kansas say, demonstrate that capitalism as designed by morons like Arthur Laffer are much to be avoided.

We seem to forget the melt down under Bush and his GOP Congress. Maybe we should all banish the terms capitalism and socialism and Marxism from out vocabularies and start discussing sane economies. Trump and the GOP are setting us up for the future failures with failed ideas that did not work in Kansas.

I was actually listening to Faux radio the day they had a rare afternoon broadcast with both Sean Insanity and Lush Rimjob bloviating together.

Hannity: "Obama is a socialist!" Limbaugh: "And don't forget to add, Communist!"

Yeah, in America, there are deep and penetrating, insightful discussions of economic policies.
 
Ah, the joy of rhetorical games! One can have failed Marxist states, failed capitalist states, failed Socialist states and of successful mixed model states. The Nordic states seem to be working quite well. In the US, the top 10% are doing well, lower down, maybe not so well, and the experiments of Louisiana, and Kansas say, demonstrate that capitalism as designed by morons like Arthur Laffer are much to be avoided.

We seem to forget the melt down under Bush and his GOP Congress. Maybe we should all banish the terms capitalism and socialism and Marxism from out vocabularies and start discussing sane economies. Trump and the GOP are setting us up for the future failures with failed ideas that did not work in Kansas.

I was actually listening to Faux radio the day they had a rare afternoon broadcast with both Sean Insanity and Lush Rimjob bloviating together.

Hannity: "Obama is a socialist!" Limbaugh: "And don't forget to add, Communist!"

Yeah, in America, there are deep and penetrating, insightful discussions of economic policies.

In the Reagan era under Thather the Brits disinvested from collective state run business, as did France I believe although the govt is a shareholder in major companies and can exert influence.

China decolectivized and got rid of govt manufacturing. The Chinese leader said China is socialust, even though it is the communist party. A mix of govt ownership and free enterprise.

China made staggering progress after the Cultural Revolution by bringing in foreign investment, those dirty capitalists.

Over here the standard iof living at the bottom has risen. People complain if wage stagnation yet have an abundance of material goods. Most everybody owns a computer.

IMO the system is not sustainable. It is based on growth and consumer consumption of things they do not need. It is based on interest jat requires growth. The idea that the system left alone will provide high employment at all times is not supportable by history. At some point people will not accept cyclic economic crashes. Why should they? Betting your retirement on a 401k 50 years in the future is insane.

I was saying in the 80s China would replace the USA as the leader. Our system precludes national planning such as energy. The ideological mantra is let the markets decide. Not all things should be left to market selection. There is an irrational fear of national planning being a slippery slope to communism.

Hey Chuck, haven't heard some good old Anerica bashing for a while.

To us the socialist French and Brits are evil incarnate, a hair away from communism.
 
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