The three types of masculinism

[ruby sparks]

Next time I see it posted elsewhere, I will be able to put the poster - and people who also read it - straight about the Dworkin and the Solanas quote, the background to which I was unaware of until now. It's like countering fake news with actual truth - all good.

With respect, I could have posted that set of quotes. The reason I didn't, and wouldn't, is because (a) they could do with being put in context and (b) they're not representative of feminism as a whole, they (well perhaps not that exact set, but a similar set) arguably just represent extreme feminism...

Same here.

As for (b), I would not even call them feminists as such. Many of those who are labelled "extreme feminists" are misandrists sailing under a false flag.

Oh they are feminists all right. Unless you want to deploy a no true scotsman thingy. They self-identify (or self-identified in the case of most of those quoted by derec, since most of them have a layer of dust on them) as feminists and are generally regarded as feminists by other feminists.

But I know what you mean.

 

[ruby sparks]

Fwiw, I personally generally avoid using the words misandry and misogyny. They can mean prejudice but they can also mean hatred, and I'm not sure the latter is warranted or accurate as often as is attributed. In Andrea Dworkin's specific case, she apparently confirmed that she was very hostile to men. Even that could be partially justified and understood. Imo we shouldn't dismiss Dworkin (or radical feminism) just as we shouldn't dismiss its (mostly) male counterpart.

 

[Hermit]

Same here.

As for (b), I would not even call them feminists as such. Many of those who are labelled "extreme feminists" are misandrists sailing under a false flag.

Oh they are femninists all right. Unless you want to deploy a no true scotsman thingy.

They are not "femninists" for precisely that reason.

I would not call most MRAs "defenders of equal men's rights" on the same grounds. In reality they are nothing but misogynists sailing under a false flag.

 

[ruby sparks]

MRA's. Yes. More in the direction of back on topic. We should maybe try to avoid making this thread too much about feminism. Apart from anything else, I'm allegedly a man and only experience second-hand what women (and people of genders and/or orientations other than mine) experience first-hand. There again, I also only experience second-hand what other men experience first-hand.

Consider me still unsure as to whether 'masculinism' should or does necessarily imply anything to do with patriarchy. But hey, since that's the paradigm being preferred by the OP, I won't quibble endlessly.

The problem(s) of patriarchy. Don't get me started. Lol.

My tuppenceworth in a nutshell: Yes, patriarchy is a problem, even if possibly often overstated by feminism (and possibly often understated outside feminism).

 

[Hermit]

Fwiw, I personally generally avoid using the words misandry and misogyny. They can mean prejudice but they can also mean hatred, and I'm not sure the latter is warranted or accurate as often as is attributed. In Andrea Dworkin's specific case, she apparently confirmed that she was very hostile to men. Even that could be partially justified and understood. Imo we shouldn't dismiss Dworkin (or radical feminism) just as we shouldn't dismiss its (mostly) male counterpart.

Since you edited your post: Yes, hostility can be justified. So can hatred. While hostility and hatred are not necessarily synonymous, there is no clear-cut demarcation line between the two. Dictionary.com's thesaurus does include hatred as one synonym for hostility and vice versa. Same in the OED (here and here). Feel free to argue with them.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Same here.

As for (b), I would not even call them feminists as such. Many of those who are labelled "extreme feminists" are misandrists sailing under a false flag.

Oh they are femninists all right. Unless you want to deploy a no true scotsman thingy.

They are not "femninists" for precisely that reason.

I would not call most MRAs "defenders of equal men's rights" on the same grounds. In reality they are nothing but misogynists sailing under a false flag.

Your observation on this not being Feminism here fits well into the "Two Kinds of Feminism" thread.

And I agree with you about the MRAs... except that MRA is meant to mean defenders of equal men's rights.... so we would need another label for what you see most of them as being. Misogynist and Patriarchal work for me. Maybe there's more too it though.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Same here.

As for (b), I would not even call them feminists as such. Many of those who are labelled "extreme feminists" are misandrists sailing under a false flag.

Oh they are femninists all right. Unless you want to deploy a no true scotsman thingy.

They are not "femninists" for precisely that reason.

I would not call most MRAs "defenders of equal men's rights" on the same grounds. In reality they are nothing but misogynists sailing under a false flag.

If we're going to forgive feminism its more radical claimants, should we not also forgive meninism its more radical claimants?

 

[Hermit]

They are not "femninists" for precisely that reason.

I would not call most MRAs "defenders of equal men's rights" on the same grounds. In reality they are nothing but misogynists sailing under a false flag.

If we're going to forgive feminism its more radical claimants, should we not also forgive meninism its more radical claimants?

"Forgive" has religious undertones, but ignoring that, I am not inclined to "forgive" extremists of either side.

 

[prideandfall]

If we're going to forgive feminism its more radical claimants, should we not also forgive meninism its more radical claimants?

when "feminism" is in charge of literally everything in every country and in every society and has been in charge of everything everywhere for thousands of years, then sure we can have a discussion about there being some kind of equality between the two and discuss balancing out the equation of public perception.

until then, i have to ask: don't you conservatives *ever* get tired of jacking yourselves off to this moore/coulter fallacy? or are you literally incapable of tiring of it?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If we're going to forgive feminism its more radical claimants, should we not also forgive meninism its more radical claimants?

when "feminism" is in charge of literally everything in every country and in every society and has been in charge of everything everywhere for thousands of years, then sure we can have a discussion about there being some kind of equality between the two and discuss balancing out the equation of public perception.

until then, i have to ask: don't you conservatives *ever* get tired of jacking yourselves off to this moore/coulter fallacy? or are you literally incapable of tiring of it?

Waiting for the female movement that pushes regulations and laws to prevent men from getting vasectomies.

 

[Elixir]

If we're going to forgive feminism its more radical claimants, should we not also forgive meninism its more radical claimants?

I thought meninites worshiped deodorant...