The value of Bible literature for atheism and the value of atheism for Bible literature

[No Robots]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching, then on that, I would understand this to be merely a personal preference, a Jesus to suit, creating a false image, if you will.

Feed the hungry, give to the poor, heal the sick, forgive and love your enemies, just some of the things preached which imo sounds quite moral to me, and quite beneficially, of practical use.

Four gospels, and all you have off the top of your head is feed the hungry, give to the poor, heal the sick, forgive and love your enemies? Sure, it is nice thinking, but it isn't particularly broad.

That bit alone created socialism, the most significant political movement in human history. Socialism is the means by which the Bible is universalized and operationalized.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching, then on that, I would understand this to be merely a personal preference, a Jesus to suit, creating a false image, if you will.

Feed the hungry, give to the poor, heal the sick, forgive and love your enemies, just some of the things preached which imo sounds quite moral to me, and quite beneficially, of practical use.

Four gospels, and all you have off the top of your head is feed the hungry, give to the poor, heal the sick, forgive and love your enemies? Sure, it is nice thinking, but it isn't particularly broad.

That bit alone created socialism, the most significant political movement in human history.

Funny that it would take 1800+ years to allegedly do that.

Socialism is the means by which the Bible is universalized and operationalized.

You mean the reason it has multiple translations and several different understandings depending on whom you talk to? Capitalists love the Prosperity lesson.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I caught a bit of local Faux Noise AM radio host Michael Berry on the radio a few months ago, bloviating about Matthew 25. Michael Dingleberry angrily denounced the idea that Matthew 25 in any way mandated the U.S., a Christian nation to actually help the poor, the sick, the oppressed. No to Medicare For All! No to making sure not a single child in America went hungry. No to socialism. No to big government. Dingleberry was loud and strident. Dingleberry obviously does not know Acts 4 and 2. God via the Holy Ghost mandates socialism.

 

[TomC]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching, then on that, I would understand this to be merely a personal preference, a Jesus to suit, creating a false image, if you will.

Feed the hungry, give to the poor, heal the sick, forgive and love your enemies, just some of the things preached which imo sounds quite moral to me, and quite beneficially, of practical use.

Long ago(mid80s) I spent a pleasant hour or two chatting with a young man from Russia. He was an exchange student.

One of the things he mentioned that stuck with me was his attitude towards Jesus. Even among the strong atheists where he is from Jesus is greatly respected. Jesus is considered a strong, but primitive, Communist. One who preached an ethical code much more resembling strong socialism than western capitalism. And one who paid the ultimate price for bucking the wealthy militaristic elite of His day. He was viciously executed.
Tom

 

[Learner]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching...

But you reject his second coming heralded by the Trump toilet paper apocalypse...

I wouldn't reject the 'second coming' but I could reject Trump.

 

[No Robots]

Funny that it would take 1800+ years to allegedly do that.

The slaver empires had to be broken before it could even start, and it will not be complete until every human has learned to love the Lord and to love his fellow humans. Only this will bring about the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

You mean the reason it has multiple translations and several different understandings depending on whom you talk to? Capitalists love the Prosperity lesson.

Reactionaries, whether atheist or religious, have been trying to keep the Bible out of the hands of those who would use it to bring justice and freedom to the whole of mankind. Both the religious Right and atheist Right claim that only initiates can see the true meaning of the Bible, that it is closed to the rabble, whereas in actuality, the Bible is of, by and for the rabble.

 

[dbz]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching...

But you reject his second coming heralded by the Trump toilet paper apocalypse...

I wouldn't reject the 'second coming' but I could reject Trump.

Why? Do you not know, "Move Over Jesus: Trump Says He's Done More for 'Religion' Than Anyone, Ever". The Daily Beast. 4 May 2022.

You know, nobody has done more for Christianity, nobody has done more for religion of all types, than me. And they’re really doing things now, to—and I’ve always said it, they are against organized religion, they’re against Christianity

 

[Learner]

I suppose if it's down to pick and choose only the bits of what Jesus was teaching...

But you reject his second coming heralded by the Trump toilet paper apocalypse...

I wouldn't reject the 'second coming' but I could reject Trump.

Why? Do you not know, "Move Over Jesus: Trump Says He's Done More for 'Religion' Than Anyone, Ever". The Daily Beast. 4 May 2022.

You know, nobody has done more for Christianity, nobody has done more for religion of all types, than me. And they’re really doing things now, to—and I’ve always said it, they are against organized religion, they’re against Christianity

Oh my, I didn't know. The daily beast lol. Nice one!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Funny that it would take 1800+ years to allegedly do that.

The slaver empires had to be broken before it could even start, and it will not be complete until every human has learned to love the Lord and to love his fellow humans. Only this will bring about the kingdom of heaven on Earth.

Such a perfect message, it has been 1/4 the length of the generalized human civilization, and it still hasn't taken yet.

You mean the reason it has multiple translations and several different understandings depending on whom you talk to? Capitalists love the Prosperity lesson.

Reactionaries, whether atheist or religious, have been trying to keep the Bible out of the hands of those who would use it to bring justice and freedom to the whole of mankind.

You really give atheists way too much credit. The damage to the Bible has been done primarily by Christians.

Both the religious Right and atheist Right claim that only initiates can see the true meaning of the Bible, that it is closed to the rabble, whereas in actuality, the Bible is of, by and for the rabble.

The Bible is more hollow than a chocolate Easter bunny. Much better, much shorter texts came out much earlier in Asia.

 

[No Robots]

The reason that socialism has stalled is that it has become anti-Christian. Without continually asserting its basis in the Bible, socialism quickly degenerates into absolute materialism and thereby becomes reactionary. In the ultimate irony, this reactionary pseudo-socialism plays directly into the hands of the pseudo-Christian conservatives.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reason that socialism has stalled is that it has become anti-Christian.

You misspelled "big business in the 1930s to 1950s were afraid of socialism make the cost of business go up, so they created this false dichotomy between socialism and nationalism/religion (particularly in the US, Christianity)". You should turn on your spell checker.

Without continually asserting its basis in the Bible, socialism quickly degenerates into absolute materialism and thereby becomes reactionary. In the ultimate irony, this reactionary pseudo-socialism plays directly into the hands of the pseudo-Christian conservatives.

This reads like Harold Camping trying to explain why his latest end of the world date was wrong.

 

[skepticalbip]

The reason that socialism has stalled is that it has become anti-Christian. Without continually asserting its basis in the Bible, socialism quickly degenerates into absolute materialism and thereby becomes reactionary. In the ultimate irony, this reactionary pseudo-socialism plays directly into the hands of the pseudo-Christian conservatives.

Socialism and Christian teachings are polar opposites. Christians supposedly believe in the individual personally loving and helping others, not leaving the care of others to the government. Socialism is a teaching that all means of production belongs to the government and only the government can see to the well being of people.

You are perhaps confusing socialism with communism. Communism is the ideal espoused by Marx that there will be no government or private property and everyone works together for their common good... sorta like an ant colony. Marx saw socialism as a "necessary evil" to confiscate all private property to set up the conditions for communism as the final and ideal system.

 

[Politesse]

Christians supposedly believe in the individual personally loving and helping others not leaving the care of others to the government.

In a democratic nation, we supposedly are the government. How do you use that power over others? If you use that power to support cruel politicians and turn a blind eye to corporate greed, it is you, not your government, that will answer for it on the day of reckoning.

 

[rousseau]

Here is Harry Waton on the superiority of a Bible-based biology:

But in the realm of life, modern science accomplished nothing. Biology—this is the science of life. What shall be said about a biology that does not know what life is? And this is the biology of the Aryans? Study the thousands of books that were written on biology by the Aryans, and in all of them you will not find a single statement as to what life itself is. For instance, Spencer defines life to be a continuous adjustment of inner relations to outer relations. Is this a definition of life? This only tells us of a function of life, but what is life itself that makes this adjustment? Spencer himself admits that he does not know. And in all cases in which the Aryans come to the ultimate aspects of existence, they draw down the curtain on which is written: The Thing in Itself, Nihil Ulterius, The Unknowable. And ask no further questions. Now, the basis of the nazi philosophy is the blood theory, and we already saw that the nazis do not know what blood is, and they know absolutely nothing about life itself. What is life? We already saw that the Bible knew what life is. Life is what the Bible calls nephesh, it is the soul in its implicit state. Life is the Absolute, it is the cause of itself, it is the substance of all realities, and all infinite existence is a living reality.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?

On the other thread I thought you wanted to discuss the bible without a myth derail.

The purpose of this thread is to examine the meaning and value that Bible literature and atheism have for each other. I intend to provide quotations from and links to pertinent literature.

Waton is arguing that the dominant paradigm (what he calls Aryan biology) provides no understanding of the nature of life itself. He argues that the essence of life is given in the Bible as nephesh, and that this is foundation of the whole of reality. In short, the Bible provides a way to understand biology that is superior to the current dominant paradigm. This may be of some importance to those atheists who find the dominant paradigm in biology deficient. I point, for example, to this thread.

My argument in that thread wasn't that the current biological paradigm is deficient, it was that it's not psychologically appealing for everyone. Those are two very different arguments. Evolution is a powerful heuristic with wide, accurate explanatory power. I don't find the framework deficient at all in terms of it's veracity.

But when you look to explain reality with hard material concepts, obviously many would prefer a lighter, more generous framework. This is why religious ideas are so popular, they're a little prettier.

 

[No Robots]

The primary task for those who wish to revitalize socialism is to root out the anti-Bible elements that have contaminated it. This shouldn't be too hard. Just show these reactionaries that their doctrines actually align with conservatism. Pushing the atheist Right into overt unity with the religious Right will allow Leftists, whether Christian or atheist, to unite.

 

[skepticalbip]

If Christianity wee

Christians supposedly believe in the individual personally loving and helping others not leaving the care of others to the government.

In a democratic nation, we supposedly are the government. How do you use that power?

No. In a democracy, individuals have a say in what the government does but not control of the government. A democracy is a system of majority rule and if the majority vote to stomp on some minority then that is just the way it is.

Thankfully the U.S. is not a democracy but is a constitutional republic where the power of the government is limited and the rights of minorities are protected by that constitution. Unfortunately, there is no system where everything works exactly as it was designed.

 

[Politesse]

No. In a democracy, individuals have a say in what the government does but not control of the government. A democracy is a system of majority rule and if the majority vote to stomp on some minority then that is just the way it is.

Yes, but you are not responsible for your neighbor's vote. You are responsible for yours. Or are you now arguing against your own point that Christianity advocates strong personal responsibility? If you are voting in the interests of a corporation over the wellbeing of your fellow citizens, you are not using the power you have in a loving way. Whether you have complete autocratic power or just a tiny portion of a democratic franchise, it is your actions that you will eventually answer for. King or peasant, if what you're doing is supporting pro-capitalist interests, you're using your power in service of Mammon, not God. Remember parable of the widow's mite? It's not how big and powerful you are that makes you important, but what you choose to do with the agency you possess.

 

[skepticalbip]

No. In a democracy, individuals have a say in what the government does but not control of the government. A democracy is a system of majority rule and if the majority vote to stomp on some minority then that is just the way it is.

Yes, but you are not responsible for your neighbor's vote. You are responsible for yours. Or are you now arguing against your own point that Christianity advocates strong personal responsibility? If you are voting in the interests of a corporation over the wellbeing of your fellow citizens, you are not using the power you have in a loving way. Whether you have complete autocratic power or just a tiny portion of a democratic franchise, it is your actions that you will eventually answer for. King or peasant, if what you're doing is supporting pro-capitalist interests, you're using your power in service of Mammon, not God. Remember parable of the widow's mite? It's not how big and powerful you are that makes you important, but what you choose to do with the agency you possess.

I don't follow that at all. You seem to be confusing an individual with a group. Christianity teaches that it is the actions of the individual toward others personally that should be the concern not what some group does. An individual 'voting' for some group to care for the poor ain't the Christian teaching; the individual personally sacrificing to help others is.

 

[No Robots]

Christianity teaches that it is the actions of the individual toward others personally that should be the concern not what some group does. An individual 'voting' for some group to care for the poor ain't the Christian teaching; the individual personally sacrificing to help others is.

Rightist claptrap. Christianity is group effort to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

 

[skepticalbip]

Christianity teaches that it is the actions of the individual toward others personally that should be the concern not what some group does. An individual 'voting' for some group to care for the poor ain't the Christian teaching; the individual personally sacrificing to help others is.

Rightist claptrap. Christianity is group effort to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

You need to read your Bible. Of course you are welcome to write you own, people do it all the time. I can understand if you think personal sacrifice to help others is too much of a burden and that it is easier to just demand that others really should sacrifice. Doing it yourself is the Christian teaching, demanding others do it isn't.