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The Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ is a "Bizarre Claim"?

 
 
 
Ah, yes. I too was a virgin birth. Insofar as my conception, however it occurred, occurred on a weekend in Las Vegas, and I have been reliably informed that "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" so I am basically an scientifically impossible occurrence.
 
I find it interesting that Serene Jones finds the notion of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ demeaning and a rejection of female sexuality. Sort of like Thomas Paine in "Age of Reason" saying that the virgin-birth story is that Mary was raped by a ghost.

That strikes me as a poor argument against historicity, because lots of bad things happen, though it is a good argument against its moral value, which is what SJ likely had in mind.

TP does have a much stronger argument against its historicity, that it is like the Greek god Zeus's amorous adventures. If one rejects those as pure fiction along with Zeus himself, why reject those and not the virgin birth of JC?
 
If you're steeped in catholic tradition like myself you realize early on in your indoctrination that when it comes to gods that are loving, that personify kindness, the christian virgin is the real deal. She could teach her alleged god a lot. I see lots of people with a statue in her honor in their yards, but none to their king of woo. Makes sense.
 
I was talking to a Sikh and asked about Sikhism and women.

He said the saying is 'Women give birth to princes', so how could there be something inferior about women.

In Catholicism Mary was put on a pedestal but women were treated like property. Your basic cognitive dissonance disconnect.
 
Dr. Serene Jones, President Of Union Theological Seminary Use of "Bizarre" in Discussing the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection of Christ - Parkchester Times | Parkchester News and Marketplace by Rev. Raymond Rivera
Dr. Serene Jones, President Of Union Theological Seminary, in discussing the historic Christian belief in the virgin birth and the resurrection of Christ, has chosen unwisely to refer to these beliefs as "bizarre." Dr. Jones' reasoning leaves a lot to be desired, and frankly is surprising to me as an ordained Pentecostal minister who has taught at Union, and whose ministry has received support from her during her leadership at the seminary. Once more, the position she has taken says a great deal more about her own viewpoint than it does about historic Christian belief in the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ.
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Like claiming that she has a "white Eurocentric mindset", and otherwise not addressing any of her arguments.


Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? – Discerning History
Was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. a Christian?

They grumbled that MLK considered Jesus Christ's Virgin Birth and Resurrection very unconvincing. Also that he described Jesus Christ on the level with Socrates -- 100% human with 100% human parentage. I wouldn't be surprised if that was very common among very (theologically) liberal Xians. If nothing else, that would fit in very well with how we describe just about *every* hero of the last few centuries. That's because recent heroes are often well-documented enough to reveal details of their parents and early childhood. One finds that there is no hint that these heroes are coming, that their parents are almost always undistinguished, and that there is rarely anything unusual about their conception, birth, or early childhood. No miraculous conception, no annunciation, nobody trying to kill them in their infancy, nothing of that sort.
 
Ahh, yes! Episcopalians! Or as one fundy pastor put it: Whiskeypalians!

I was baptized and raised in the Episcopal Church. I went to an Episcopal University. We didn’t have to attend chapel, but we did have to take a course in religion and one in philosophy. My religion professor was an ex-seminarian. He dropped out because he couldn’t buy into it any more. But he never forced his beliefs on us, but simply asked us to question everything. But few of us gave up our faith then. And what made me cling to the church were ideas like Dr. Jones. I didn’t have to give up my beliefs in physics or evolution to be a member of the church. It wasn’t an irrational approach to religion. I could live a rational life and still be a church member. At one church, there was a poster that said: “He came to take away your sins, not your mind.” I liked that. I was actually proud to be a member!

It wasn’t until a fundy really challenged me to read and understand the Bible that I really began to explore the roots of my faith and to realize that it was all just myth. But it was hard to leave the church because it’s message was never one of exclusion or demanding a particular belief. I never heard messages like Dr. Jones, but there were plenty of liberal voices. Our pastor said he believed In The virgin birth, but he never said we had to.

But eventually I just couldn’t buy any of it anymore. So other than for funerals, weddings and other occasions, I haven’t been back. Maybe I could for her though. I went through a phase where I was angry at the church for lying to me. Now I realize there’s actually little difference between us. In some sense we’re all just worshiping our creator in our own way. Some of us just spell it n a t u r e, and try to understand it’s history and laws. Others sing songs and compare hats. Others like to listen to hate and bask in their exclusivity.

Well, more power to her. The world would be a much better place with her voice than Pat fucking Robertson.

SLD
 
9 out of 10 actuarial analysts will tell you: houses with bathtub Madonnas in the front yard NEVER get hit by lightning. If the Madonna's in the side yard, 80% coverage. In the back yard or obscured by forsythia, well, all bets are off. If it's an image of Madonna from Michigan, the house will at some point take a lightning strike. Incidentally, the remaining actuarial analyst is goin' to hell.
 
steve_bank said:
I was talking to a Sikh and asked about Sikhism and women.

He said the saying is 'Women give birth to princes', so how could there be something inferior about women.

In Catholicism Mary was put on a pedestal but women were treated like property. Your basic cognitive dissonance disconnect.
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I think relative to the cultures at the time, both early Christianity and Islam gave women a lot more power, and indeed, I think this was instrumental in their spread.

Don't forget, Christianity may not have come to dominate Europe if it hadn't been for a woman, Helena, mother of Constantine the Great.


Islam, in particular, cannot be looked at without the context of a deeply patriarchal pre-Islamic Arabic society. Islam vastly improved the lot of women in the Arabic peninsula. Instead of "allowing for 4 wives", it restricted the number of wives to 4, and allowed women to inherit property etc. Indeed, the first Muslim was Khadija, Mohammed's wife, to who he was married monogamously for her lifetime, and she was 40 at the time of their marriage (he was 25). She herself was a very powerful merchant, and it is unlikely Mohammed could have become as powerful without her support.
 
Yesterday, we had a tour guide in Hue who wanted to give us a history of Buddhism. So he started telling tales about the life of Buddha. It turns out that the Buddha himself was the product of a virgin birth. He was pulled out of the side of his mother's body, whatever that means. The basic idea was that his birth was miraculous, not ordinary. So he deserves all the awe and worship.
 
Copernicus said:
Yesterday, we had a tour guide in Hue who wanted to give us a history of Buddhism. So he started telling tales about the life of Buddha. It turns out that the Buddha himself was the product of a virgin birth. He was pulled out of the side of his mother's body, whatever that means. The basic idea was that his birth was miraculous, not ordinary. So he deserves all the awe and worship.
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The whole virginity thing is goofy. A woman who never "lost" her virginity must somehow be special, though not as special as the mythical person born of a virgin. Historically, all a virgin birth was good for was the right to say the offspring didn't come from anything human but had a clear connection to a god. Therefore it was a political statement, hardly a biological one.

So it's not really such a bizarre claim as it first appears to be, it's just another use of myth for political gain. The two Jesus stories that mention his virgin birth therefore make sense even if they are as impossible as flying sleighs and flying reindeer.
 
Copernicus said:
Yesterday, we had a tour guide in Hue who wanted to give us a history of Buddhism. So he started telling tales about the life of Buddha. It turns out that the Buddha himself was the product of a virgin birth. He was pulled out of the side of his mother's body, whatever that means. The basic idea was that his birth was miraculous, not ordinary. So he deserves all the awe and worship.
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Cesarean birth?

Plus the whole biology thing.
Sperm can swim. The ejaculation does not have to be so deep inside the woman's body that it breaks the hymen....

Myths are weird.
 
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