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Theories of personality

I don't see that it's any good. Personally, I'm experimental or cautious depending on circumstances. I'm conscientious or careless depending on the activity. I'm extravert or reserved depending on the situation and what people look like. I'm friendly and compassionate or analytical and detached according to my understanding of who the other person is. I'm confident or emotional depending on what the interaction and relationship is. Maybe some people, maybe most people, are more consistent but I tend to think most people can adapt their personality to some extent. I believe this is common knowledge. Most, or at least many, people compartmentalise their lives to some extent and can have several faces. Sounds like a winner to me. This would also explain why we don't pay much attention to what psychology says.
EB

Well, you're paying so little attention to what Psychology says, that you are misrepresenting what it says and then rejecting a straw man.
I was paying attention to what the OP said and I responded to that.

I also didn't represent psychology at all so I couldn't possibly have mirepresented it.

Whose straw man then?


First, the biggest critics of the Big 5 theory in the OP, or any notion of stable "personality" are Psychologists.
So why reply to my post instead of directly addressing Ipetrich's? He claimed what he presented to be "mainstream psychology". Now you are saying that psychologists are the "biggest" critics of it. Yet, you didn't comment on the OP when you had something to say to comment on my post where you had nothing to say. That's absurd.


Also, the Big 5 theory allows for the kind of contextual variance in you are describing. The idea is merely that each dimension captures variability in how different people "tend" to behave in situations. For example, almost everyone feels/acts more "shy" or "reserved" among strangers than well known others. That doesn't differentiate people much. How they differ is that some people at their most "shy" are more like how other people are when they are at their most open and extroverted, and some people tend to lose that shyness much more quickly. Basically, if you take two people and measure how "shy" they feel/act across many different observations and situations, one person will have a higher average/typical level of shyness than another. Thus, if you plot the population overall on each person's most typical level of shyness, you get a normal distribution with lots of people neither strongly shy or extroverted but some people strongly at one end of the continuum (though, even these people vary within themselves in level of shyness).

The 5 dimensions are empirically uncorrelated with each other. Thus, where you fall on the continuum for one dimension does not predict where you fall on the others. Thus, while some people are middle of the road on all 5, most people fall farther out from the mean on at least one dimension, with others falling on extremes on several. This creates numerous different patterns/profiles across the 5 dimensions that merely are claimed to reflect differences in what is most typical for a person relative to what is typical for other people.
Tell Ipetrich!


Thus, while some people are middle of the road on all 5, most people fall farther out from the mean on at least one dimension, with others falling on extremes on several.
I think these categories tend to give people a false notion that they have a deeply entrenched personality and that's a very bad trick to play on many people. I've met people throughout my life who tried to understand their lives and solve their problems. I never met one who would have been helped by a stronger belief that he or she had a deeply entrenched personality. Me I think it's better to increase the confidence the person has that he or she can change. The idea of personality is the opposite of that. Maybe it works for selling cars and life insurances but I think it's really counterproductive for improving one's life.
EB
 
Personalities vary as much as there are people. But some classifications are useful to understand people.
For example:
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/fromm.html
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/horney.html

But it's even better to try to understand what makes people tick, instead of simply classifying.

There you go.

 Field theory (psychology)

After all stereotypes (personalities, etc.) grow out of living systems basic capacity for grouping information.

... therefore what is grouped and how it is grouped is very cultural, even personal, and really useless unless connected to power.

In fact my view is that grouping in society is one of our four primary diseases, along with addiction, heart disease, and cancer.
 
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Personalities vary as much as there are people. But some classifications are useful to understand people.
For example:
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/fromm.html
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/horney.html

But it's even better to try to understand what makes people tick, instead of simply classifying.

There you go.

 Field theory (psychology)

After all stereotypes (personalities, etc.) grow out of living systems basic capacity for grouping information.

... therefore what is grouped and how it is grouped is very cultural, even personal, and really useless unless connected to power.

In fact my view is that grouping in society is one of our four primary diseases, along with addiction, heart disease, and cancer.

Exactly. The act of the set A of psycolomgists to grouping people from set B by psychological traits justs shows how set A perceive psychological traits, not how set B really functions psychologically.
 
Personalities vary as much as there are people. But some classifications are useful to understand people.
For example:
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/fromm.html
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/horney.html

But it's even better to try to understand what makes people tick, instead of simply classifying.

There you go.

 Field theory (psychology)

After all stereotypes (personalities, etc.) grow out of living systems basic capacity for grouping information.

... therefore what is grouped and how it is grouped is very cultural, even personal, and really useless unless connected to power.

In fact my view is that grouping in society is one of our four primary diseases, along with addiction, heart disease, and cancer.


Grouping things is the basis of all knowledge and of all science. In fact, addiction, heart disease, and cancer are categories that "stereotype" various instances of illness, and then you created a supra-category of categories of things that are "diseases".
There is nothing magical about people. They, like everything in reality have properties that make them both more similar and more dissimilar to various other people and things in the world, and personalities are just one of the useful ways in which humans can be categorized based upon those features.
 
Well, you're paying so little attention to what Psychology says, that you are misrepresenting what it says and then rejecting a straw man.
I was paying attention to what the OP said and I responded to that.

The OP linked to information that you paid no attention to, plus your response misrepresented what was quoted in the OP itself.

I also didn't represent psychology at all so I couldn't possibly have mirepresented it.

You most certainly did represent psychology. You said that "this is why we don't pay much attention to what psychology says." , which refers to psychology in general, not limited to the OP, nor even the personality theory it refers to. You contrasted your view against "what Psychology says" implying they are opposed, when in fact, Psychology "says" everything you said regarding variability from situation to situation.


First, the biggest critics of the Big 5 theory in the OP, or any notion of stable "personality" are Psychologists.
So why reply to my post instead of directly addressing Ipetrich's? He claimed what he presented to be "mainstream psychology". Now you are saying that psychologists are the "biggest" critics of it. Yet, you didn't comment on the OP when you had something to say to comment on my post where you had nothing to say. That's absurd.

You are the one who mischaracterized both what the OP said and what Psychology more generally says about personality. So, it made sense to reply to your mischaracterization, and in doing so, provide some added information to what was in the OP, which wasn't incorrect, simply incomplete.


Also, the Big 5 theory allows for the kind of contextual variance in you are describing. The idea is merely that each dimension captures variability in how different people "tend" to behave in situations. For example, almost everyone feels/acts more "shy" or "reserved" among strangers than well known others. That doesn't differentiate people much. How they differ is that some people at their most "shy" are more like how other people are when they are at their most open and extroverted, and some people tend to lose that shyness much more quickly. Basically, if you take two people and measure how "shy" they feel/act across many different observations and situations, one person will have a higher average/typical level of shyness than another. Thus, if you plot the population overall on each person's most typical level of shyness, you get a normal distribution with lots of people neither strongly shy or extroverted but some people strongly at one end of the continuum (though, even these people vary within themselves in level of shyness).

The 5 dimensions are empirically uncorrelated with each other. Thus, where you fall on the continuum for one dimension does not predict where you fall on the others. Thus, while some people are middle of the road on all 5, most people fall farther out from the mean on at least one dimension, with others falling on extremes on several. This creates numerous different patterns/profiles across the 5 dimensions that merely are claimed to reflect differences in what is most typical for a person relative to what is typical for other people.
Tell Ipetrich!

I am telling you, because your reply shows you don't understand this regarding personality theories in psychology. Ipetrich's post did not demonstrate such a lack of understanding. He/she never implied that personalities are rigid and invariable. It was you that leapt to the unfounded conclusion that personalities refer to rigid invariable ways of being rather than relative tendencies.


Thus, while some people are middle of the road on all 5, most people fall farther out from the mean on at least one dimension, with others falling on extremes on several.
I think these categories tend to give people a false notion that they have a deeply entrenched personality and that's a very bad trick to play on many people. I've met people throughout my life who tried to understand their lives and solve their problems. I never met one who would have been helped by a stronger belief that he or she had a deeply entrenched personality. Me I think it's better to increase the confidence the person has that he or she can change. The idea of personality is the opposite of that. Maybe it works for selling cars and life insurances but I think it's really counterproductive for improving one's life.

How people might be impacted by information about themselves is irrelevant to whether that information is valid and true. Being told you have a degenerative disease might have positive or negative impacts on that person, but all those are irrelevant to the whether it is true that they have a degenerative disease.
However, it seems that the field of psychology must face this source of anti-science moreso than other fields. Many people are willing to blindly dismiss psychology as a field "they shouldn't listen to", not because it doesn't have valid information to give but because they don't like that information or don't like how some people might react to that information. It is like conservatives who reject biological explanations for homosexual or criminal behavior, simply because they think this people an excuse to do things that they thinks it is wrong to do.

Also, such information about one's personality can easily be beneficial. Happiness is greatly impacted by whether one's circumstances match those that one prefers. Knowing oneself and one's emotional and behavioral tendencies are neccessary to optimizing the match between one's circumstances and one's preferences.
 
Science refutes your faith.

The personality scores based on the tests empirically predict observable behaviors that the test themselves do not measure.

Eh. Not really. Most of these dimensions are bull. There is one that get all the attention though since it seems to do what you say: extro/introvertedness. Problem is that the overwhelming majority is at the middle of that scale and that the score isnt stable. To the test some weeks later and you may get another result.

Actually, only a tiny % are at the actual middle of the scale, which is only a single exact value in a wide range of values. Most people fall above or below the middle to varying degrees.

As for stability/reliability, you are wrong there too.

[P]"The test-retest reliability of the NEO PI-R is also been found to be satisfactory. The test-retest reliability of an early version of the NEO after 3 months was: N = .87, E = .91, O = .86.[13] The test-retest reliability for over 6 years, as reported in the NEO PI-R manual, was the following: N = .83, E = .82, O = .83, A = .63, C = .79. Costa and McCrae pointed out that these findings not only demonstrate good reliability of the domain scores, but also their stability (among individuals over the age of 30). Scores measured six years apart varied only marginally more than scores measured a few months apart."[/P]

IOW, take a large sample of people and measure them on the Big 5 dimensions once, then again 6 years later and their scores will. correlated between the two time points at an extremely high level, r = .82 for the Extraversion dimension.
 
I was paying attention to what the OP said and I responded to that.

The OP linked to information that you paid no attention to, plus your response misrepresented what was quoted in the OP itself.

I also didn't represent psychology at all so I couldn't possibly have mirepresented it.

You most certainly did represent psychology. You said that "this is why we don't pay much attention to what psychology says." , which refers to psychology in general, not limited to the OP, nor even the personality theory it refers to.
Again I didn't represent psychology. The bit you quote here is not about psychology but about the attitude of the non-psychologists towards what psychology says.

You contrasted your view against "what Psychology says" implying they are opposed, when in fact, Psychology "says" everything you said regarding variability from situation to situation.
If for most people there's the variability I say there is in my case then the purported personality traits presented in the OP are not personality traits at all. So either I'm from a different galaxy, or the Big Five model can at best be used to sell cars and make-up.

First, the biggest critics of the Big 5 theory in the OP, or any notion of stable "personality" are Psychologists.
So why reply to my post instead of directly addressing Ipetrich's? He claimed what he presented to be "mainstream psychology". Now you are saying that psychologists are the "biggest" critics of it. Yet, you didn't comment on the OP when you had something to say to comment on my post where you had nothing to say. That's absurd.

You are the one who mischaracterized both what the OP said and what Psychology more generally says about personality. So, it made sense to reply to your mischaracterization, and in doing so, provide some added information to what was in the OP, which wasn't incorrect, simply incomplete.
You haven't explained how I miscaracterised the OP or psychology. You haven't even show I represented psychology.

Still, maybe I misread the OP's "best-supported personality model" as "well-supported model that is used in current psychological practice". My bad.


I am telling you, because your reply shows you don't understand this regarding personality theories in psychology. Ipetrich's post did not demonstrate such a lack of understanding. He/she never implied that personalities are rigid and invariable. It was you that leapt to the unfounded conclusion that personalities refer to rigid invariable ways of being rather than relative tendencies.
Oh alright, so the personality traits used in best-supported personality model are not personality traits. Ok, I did misundertood that bit. Sorry.
EB
 
There you go.

 Field theory (psychology)

After all stereotypes (personalities, etc.) grow out of living systems basic capacity for grouping information.

... therefore what is grouped and how it is grouped is very cultural, even personal, and really useless unless connected to power.

In fact my view is that grouping in society is one of our four primary diseases, along with addiction, heart disease, and cancer.

Exactly. The act of the set A of psycolomgists to grouping people from set B by psychological traits justs shows how set A perceive psychological traits, not how set B really functions psychologically.

LOL. I'm an empiricist. I prefer lots of research to... lack of research.

Some classifications have a lot of science behind them.
For example WHO and APA's personality disorder classifications; or Theodore Millon's system; or Otto Kernberg's psychodynamic (current psychoanalytic) system, have a lot of research behind them. And controversy... science comes with controversy inherently, as the work in progress it is.
 
Another research effort, and this one is both new (very incomplete, it's a project) and promising, is being done by NIMH (National Institutes of Mental Health) is the Research Domain Criteria or RDoC.
 
Exactly. The act of the set A of psycolomgists to grouping people from set B by psychological traits justs shows how set A perceive psychological traits, not how set B really functions psychologically.

LOL. I'm an empiricist. I prefer lots of research to... lack of research.

Some classifications have a lot of science behind them.
For example WHO and APA's personality disorder classifications; or Theodore Millon's system; or Otto Kernberg's psychodynamic (current psychoanalytic) system, have a lot of research behind them. And controversy... science comes with controversy inherently, as the work in progress it is.

I agree totally. The disorder classifactions are a very different kind of beast than that of Jung and MBTI
 
LOL. I'm an empiricist. I prefer lots of research to... lack of research.

Some classifications have a lot of science behind them.
For example WHO and APA's personality disorder classifications; or Theodore Millon's system; or Otto Kernberg's psychodynamic (current psychoanalytic) system, have a lot of research behind them. And controversy... science comes with controversy inherently, as the work in progress it is.

I agree totally. The disorder classifications are a very different kind of beast than that of Jung and MBTI

So here's an article published in 2015 that, for wont of more specific theory, I see as wrongful application of Factor Analytics derived personality categories and building a divining rod suited to less than ten million people (New Zealand) being suggested as a
'true' personality type model for use where socialized health care is less prevalent (US).

Translating Personality Psychology to Help Personalize Preventive Medicine for Young-Adult Patients http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951727/

Abstract:
The rising number of newly insured young adults brought on by healthcare reform will soon increase demands on primary-care physicians. Physicians will face more young-adult patients which presents an opportunity for more prevention-oriented care. In the current study, we evaluated whether brief observer reports of young adults’ personality traits could predict which individuals would be at greater risk for poor health as they entered midlife. Following the Dunedin Study cohort of 1,000 individuals, we show that very brief measures of young adults’ personalities predicted their midlife physical health across multiple domains (metabolic abnormalities, cardiorespiratory fitness, pulmonary function, periodontal disease, and systemic inflammation). Individuals scoring low on the traits of Conscientiousness and Openness-to-Experience went on to develop poorer health even after accounting for preexisting differences in education, socioeconomic status, smoking, obesity, self-reported health, medical conditions, and family medical history. Moreover, personality ratings from peer informants who knew participants well, and from a nurse and receptionist who had just met participants for the first time, predicted health decline from young adulthood to midlife despite striking differences in level of acquaintance. Personality effect sizes were on par with other well-established health-risk factors such as socioeconomic status, smoking, and self-reported health. We discuss the potential utility of personality measurement to function as an inexpensive and accessible tool for healthcare professionals to personalize preventive medicine. Adding personality information to existing healthcare electronic infrastructures could also advance personality theory by generating opportunities to examine how personality processes influence doctor-patient communication, health service use, and patient outcomes.

Now I'm not going to take a lot of time to point out that Societies are, if not unique, very individual and characteristic, that personalities issues are observed deviations from behavioral norms in those societies, and that most of this stuff is no better than that of one divining for something with inadequate in formation and tools. Oh and Factor Analysis is a correlation not causal tool and typing is really no better than head lump identification, Just take this note.

Look I know a fair number of reputable psychiatrists doing research with some success at as such as Anna State and I've actually taken and analyzed blood, urine, and under strict control, some brain chemistry from these places by these doctors.

I just don't buy the approach research clinical psychologists as scientific.

The rest you can satisfy yourself of whether I'm being a wild eyed hater of such practices by reading, then relating what you read in this article to what you know about human brain (dualistic neuro) science, behavioral (twitch) science, and hormonal (squirt) science.

boom
 
I just don't buy the approach research clinical psychologists as scientific.

Straw man, your whole post up to that phrase. You seem to believe, or to intend your readers to believe factor analysis is the only sort of research being done.

The rest you can satisfy yourself of whether I'm being a wild eyed hater of such practices by reading, then relating what you read in this article to what you know about human brain (dualistic neuro) science, behavioral (twitch) science, and hormonal (squirt) science.

Do you even grammar?
(in other words, please rephrase.)
 
Straw man, your whole post up to that phrase. You seem to believe, or to intend your readers to believe factor analysis is the only sort of research being done.

The rest you can satisfy yourself about whether I'm being a wild eyed hater of such practices. Just read, then relate what you read in this article to what you know about human brain (neuro) science, behavioral (twitch) science, and hormonal (squirt) science.

Do you even grammar?
(in other words, please rephrase.)

Just took a shot at grammaring.

OK so I didn't point out clearly enough that, beyond the correlative nature of the 'science', new Zealand is a piss poor model for DEFINING world social behavior.

Yet this bit of 'research' is about as good as it gets for this 'science'. I'm pretty much wedded to this-causes-that approach as empirical science. I tired of rings of Saturn - If you don't know the expression you don't know correlation - stuff when I was a first year grad student way back in 1968.

As for correlation methods I mean all of them when I spout Factor Analysis, something directly applicable to typing categories, as a signal about the problem with associative style research. They are scientists doing science. Its just that their data is not really up to scientific standards for making such as theory.
 
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Phrased that way, yes, I agree. Factor analysis applied this way is awful. It's some sort of mathematical version of extreme reductionist positivism.
 
Straw man, your whole post up to that phrase. You seem to believe, or to intend your readers to believe factor analysis is the only sort of research being done.

The rest you can satisfy yourself of whether I'm being a wild eyed hater of such practices by reading, then relating what you read in this article to what you know about human brain (dualistic neuro) science, behavioral (twitch) science, and hormonal (squirt) science.

Do you even grammar?
(in other words, please rephrase.)

cavemen.png
 
Phrased that way, yes, I agree. Factor analysis applied this way is awful. It's some sort of mathematical version of extreme reductionist positivism.

Well the The APA was petitioned to admit such as science in recent years

Here is an example of what I'm speaking. Evaluating the quality of evidence from Correlational based research for Evidence Based Practice https://www.researchgate.net/profil...d_Practice/links/552556b70cf24b822b3fce27.pdf

Within the quantitative group-design genre, only true experiments offer definitive evidence for causal inferences that can inform evidence-based instructional practice. But not all educational interventions are readily amenable to experiments.In addition, experimental studies of educational interventions are compromised by cross-contamination when students participate in multiple interventions.

In such cases correlational evidence may be useful in adducing complementary evidence. Correlational studies can produce intriguing results that are then subjected to experimental study.And correlational evidence can at least tentatively inform evidence-based practice when sophisticated causal modeling (e.g., regression discontinuity analyses) or exclusion methods are employed. Correlational evidence is most informative when exemplary practices are followed with regard to(a) measurement, (b) quantifying effects, (c)avoidance of common macro-analytic errors, and(d) use of confidence intervals to portray the consistency of possible effects and the precisions of the effect estimates. Table 1 presents a list of the quality indicators suggested for research in this genre.

....


Table I
Suggested Quality Indicators for Correlational Research Measurement
1. Score reliability coefficients are reported for all measured variables, based on induction from a prior study or test manual, with explicit and reasonable justifications as regards comparabilities of(a) sample compositions and (b) score dispersions.

2. Score reliability coefficients are reported for all measured variables, based on analysis of the datain hand in the particular study.

3. Evidence is inducted, with explicit rationale, from a prior study or test manual that suggests scoresare valid for the inferences being made in thestudy.

4. Score validity is empirically evaluated based on data generated within the study.

5. The influences of score reliability and validity on study interpretations are explicitly considered inreasonable detail.Practical and Clinical Significance

6. One or more effect size statistics is reported for each study primary outcome, and the effect statistic used is clearly identified.

7. Authors interpret study effect sizes for selected practices by directly and explicitly comparing study effects with those reported in related prior studies.

8. Authors explicitly consider study design and effectsize statistic limitations as part of effect interpretation.Avoiding Some Common Macro-Analytic Mistakes9. GLM weights (e.g., beta weights) are interpretedas reflecting correlations of predictors with outcome variables only in the exceptional case thatt he weights indeed are correlation coefficients.

10. When noteworthy results are detected, and the origins of these effects are investigated, the interpretation includes examination of structure coefficients.

11. Interval data are not converted to nominal scale,unless such choices are justified on the extraordinar ybasis of distribution shapes, and the consequencesof the conversion are thoughtfully considered as part of result interpretation.

12. Univariate methods are not used in the presence of multiple outcome variables.

13. Univariate methods are not used post hoc to multivariate tests.

14. Persuasive evidence is explicitly presented that the assumptions of statistical methods are sufficiently well-met for results to be deemed credible. CIs for Reliability Coefficients, Statistics, and Effect Sizes

15. Confidence intervals are reported for the reliability coefficients derived for study data.

16. Confidence intervals are reported for the sample statistics (e.g., means, correlation coefficients) of primary interest in the study.

17. Confidence intervals are reported for study effect sizes.

18. Confidence intervals are interpreted by direct and explicit comparison with related CIs from prior studies.

Sure. taking all these precautions are going to really impact the effect of headlines reported in the press and even among reviewers. /not.

Put an impressive diaper on BS and you've got BS.
 
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