• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

They/Them She/Her He/Him - as you will

But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
Perception is almost always based on sex. And it is ALWAYS based on the person doing the perceiving, not on the internal concepts of the person being perceived.
Of course perception is based on the one who is perceiving. No one is claiming otherwise.

Perception is not based on sex (which, according to Metaphor, is what someone IS) but on the perceived sex (which correlates more to gender).
I respectfully disagree. I think the perception correlates much more to actual sex than to gender. Case in point: I perceive the majority of transgender people as their actual sex when I see them. I don't perceive them as their gender. I respect that they are attempting to portray a sex different to their body's... but I still perceive them as their actual sex. The ones that I perceive as their gender are those who have had significant surgery done in order to alter their secondary and tertiary sex characteristics.

No matter how they self-identify, no matter how they feel inside... I perceive Eddie Izzard and Alex Drummond to be males. If I ever run into either of them in real life, I will engage in the polite fiction of using their preferred feminine pronouns. But inside my head they are both unquestionably men.
Which is the way most people in the world operate.
That would be perceiving people based on their sex, rather than their gender.
 
But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
Perception is almost always based on sex. And it is ALWAYS based on the person doing the perceiving, not on the internal concepts of the person being perceived.
Of course perception is based on the one who is perceiving. No one is claiming otherwise.

Perception is not based on sex (which, according to Metaphor, is what someone IS) but on the perceived sex (which correlates more to gender).
I respectfully disagree. I think the perception correlates much more to actual sex than to gender. Case in point: I perceive the majority of transgender people as their actual sex when I see them. I don't perceive them as their gender. I respect that they are attempting to portray a sex different to their body's... but I still perceive them as their actual sex. The ones that I perceive as their gender are those who have had significant surgery done in order to alter their secondary and tertiary sex characteristics.
Well, I perceive them as their gender most of the time, unless I knew them before their transformation.
No matter how they self-identify, no matter how they feel inside... I perceive Eddie Izzard and Alex Drummond to be males. If I ever run into either of them in real life, I will engage in the polite fiction of using their preferred feminine pronouns. But inside my head they are both unquestionably men.
Which is the way most people in the world operate.
That would be perceiving people based on their sex, rather than their gender.
Nope.
 
Is it? My tomboy / firecracker daughter is mistaken for a boy at times (she doesn't like that), and it is based almost exclusively on her behavior, very energetic and not quiet / refined. Heck, she's been decked out in pink and a skirt and gets called a boy!

In one case at the zoo, we got to the lions and she was roaring and bouncy. The guy next to her says to their own smaller child, 'look at that boy...' She replied, "I'm a girl". The father was taken aback, "But you were roaring..." His entire estimation of my daughter's gender was based on her behavior.
His entire perception of your daughter was based on regressive sex-based stereotypes. Ones that overwhelmingly limit girls and reduce their freedom and agency.

Roar away, girl, roar away. Do it louder, with more energy. Don't be quiet and refined and placid and accommodating.
Thanks for ignoring the point about perception and how pronouns are used based on perception not the Chromosomes.
I betcha that once your daughter hits puberty, she will no longer be perceived as a boy because she wears pants and like lions. Why do you think I might be willing to make that bet?

Also, once again, it's not chromosomes that define sex. It's the reproductive strategy around which one's body is formed. Chromosomes are the ingredients for the cake, not the cake itself.

New thing I learned today: It's one specific gene that guides sex during gestation, the SRY gene. In 99.999% of people, that SRY gene is located on the Y chromosome. In some people, that SRY gene is non-functional, so you end up with and CY chromosome but a person with CAIS, which is female because their body is organized around the production of eggs rather than sperm. It's organized around eggs because the SRY gene cannot be activated during development. Similarly, there are a very, very few people with XX chromosomes, where the SRY gene has been inadvertently transcribed to one of the legs on the one of the X chromosomes. Those people are male, because they SRY gets activated during gestation and they develop a body organized around the production of sperm. In both of those cases, the vast majority of those people are sterile, but that doesn't alter their sex. Because sex is defined based on the reproductive strategy around which your body is organized.
 
Your insistence that what is in your head matters more than what is in their head is absurd!

That you term is "polite fiction" is flat out arrogance. It makes it sound like they are playing D&D and it is just a game or a phase or an act.

This is their identity, who they know they are, who they had to struggle in our world to be openly. But it is so nice of you to pretend that you give a fuck how they feel.

Males are not females; females are not males. A male person who feels like a female is still a male. That I politely refer to them as if they are female is a polite fiction; they are not female. A female person who feels like a male is still a female. That I politely refer to them as if they are male is a polite fiction; they are not male.

It's not "what's going on in my head" here. It's what reality is. It need not be a phase or a game at all, but their dysphoria also does not alter the nature of the objective world and the reality of sex.

And despite your condescension, yes, it *is* nice for people to care about how other people feel about themselves. If it weren't nice to use peoples preferred pronouns, I wouldn't bother doing it. I do it only and specifically because it is nice to do so.

It's certainly not because I somehow think that belief alters reality.
 
But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
Then there cannot be any misgendering. If I perceive somebody to be of the sex 'male', I use 'he'.

This is the problem. You find your own perception more important than another, autonomous, human. You can do that, but you're being rude.

Up thread, I mentioned Andrea. Very tall, big shoulders, wearing a dress and lipstick. I introduced myself as Tom, she introduced herself as Andrea. Her physique was male, her attire female. A female gendered name was the tie breaker, this person I'd never met before preferred female references. It just wasn't that difficult to navigate the cues towards a civil conversation. Because Andrea's sex is utterly unimportant to me. Her gender only mattered out of politeness. All I wanted was to get along with a stranger. We were early to an event and sat around in the lobby for awhile, having a pleasant conversation. That's how I know she was born Andrew.

Bottom line is simple. Play nice. You needn't be honest or precise about everything. Better if you're not.
Tom

I remember laughing at a cartoon. A guy is in a hospital bed, bandaged and splinted from head to toe, talking to another guy. He says to the guy, "But that dress really did make her ass look fat." ;)
 
But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
Then there cannot be any misgendering. If I perceive somebody to be of the sex 'male', I use 'he'.
Nope. Perceptions can be wrong.
If I perceive Eddie Izzard to be male, and refer to Izzard using "he"... am I wrong?

I agree that perceptions can be incorrect. What I'm unsure of is what you think constitutes a wrong perception in this context.
 
Animals don't have 'genders', at least they don't in the way I understand other people to use the term 'gender'.

Non-human animals have sexes, and sometimes those sexes are very different from sex in humans (mammals). Some animals (but not mammals) can change sex. Some animals don't reproduce sexually (so in one sense they are all-female). Who knows what the fuck's going on with bees. Most humans don't freely recognise the sex of animals they are not familiar with. I couldn't tell you the sex of most birds except adult peacocks. (Those peahens must be fucking wild in bed for the cocks to go to that much effort).
To the extent that animals have sex-based functional roles within their groups, I'll give them gender as a term for sex-differentiated behaviors and roles. Male lions guard the pride and keep other males away (also preventing their kittens from being killed or eaten). Female lions do the majority of the hunting. I would be willing to accept "gender" as the term for those functional roles.

If that's not what gender is being used to mean, however, then I would challenge whether humans have gender either. We have socially-enforced sex stereotypes.
 
Nor have you actually understood the universe doesn't revolve around you. It seems somehow you think what is in your mind supercedes what is in their's. And that you think the dangling bits are more important than the part of a person that makes them sentient, and that the universe has purposed you to remind people what junk they've got stored away.

This is cherry picking. You're essentially arguing that someone else's feelings about their soul in contradiction to their sex is more important than my (or Met's) objective observation of reality.

How do you determine whose mind gets to win? The one whose mind agrees with objective observations or the one whose mind does not? I happen to go with courtesy because it's nice to do so, but certainly not because I think the mind that disagrees with objective observation is *right*.
 
I forgot I was not in this world but Wonderland. In this world, people have gender and sex. Babies have gender identities even if they are not aware of them.
Bullshit. I don't have a gender. I have a sex, and I have a set of regressive and harmful sex-based stereotypes that society tries really hard to force onto me. But I do NOT have a gender, nor do I have a gender identity.

This is analogous to a theist insisting that atheists have religion because all people have religion, the atheist just doesn't understand or acknowledge their faith. I know you've run across that argument, and I know you view that as a fallacious argument.

The pattern of the argument is no different from yours.
 
Well, I perceive them as their gender most of the time, unless I knew them before their transformation.
I don't really understand this. What, in your view, are the markers of gender by which you perceive them?

Do you perceive Eddie Izzard as a female? Did you perceive Eddie Izzard as a female in 1999?
 
Bullshit. I don't have a gender. I have a sex, and I have a set of regressive and harmful sex-based stereotypes that society tries really hard to force onto me. But I do NOT have a gender, nor do I have a gender identity.
Really?
Are you being sarcastic or something? Pardon my ignorance, what?

I had never considered your gender in question. (I assumed it matched your sex, but I don't care enough to think about it)

Did I miss something somehow?
Tom
 
This is the problem. You find your own perception more important than another, autonomous, human. You can do that, but you're being rude.

I'm going to attempt to take a middle ground on this. I might fail, but that's life.

What is the dividing line between courtesy and mandated conformity? In you example, you perceived Andrea to be male. Your eyeballs and your brain work just fine, and you're probably just as good at visually identifying sex as the rest of us. Andrea was in actuality male. You also behaved politely and treated Andrea as if you did NOT know that they were male, as if you THOUGHT that they were female. You engaged in polite fiction for their benefit and their peace of mind. And I'm guessing that Andrea knows you were engaging in polite fiction as well, and probably appreciate it.

Now lets add a hypothetical. Let's assume that Andrea is the broad shouldered person you encountered, wearing men's cut button-fly jeans, men's style cowboy boots, a men's cut button-up shirt, and sporting an impressive beard. Let's assume that Andrea is also loud, pushy, and is sexually aggressive toward the women who are present. Andrea *demands* that you treat them as a woman, and act like they're a woman.

How far does courtesy extend? Do you use female pronouns for Andrea, do you refer to them as a woman? Do you support them when they demand to use the ladies restroom? Do you take their side when they get pushy and handsy with the lesbian in the corner, because you accept that Andrea is a woman and is therefore a lesbian?

Now, let's add to that. What if the venue you were at *required* that you use people's pronouns, and rather than Andrea being a stranger that you just met... You've known them as Andrew for over a decade and they've never seemed at all transgender. What if you're pretty sure that "Andrea" is something that Andrew is doing for laughs or to get into the ladies room because he's a known creeper?

Does courtesy still apply?

My point here is NOT to imply that transgender people are bad in any way, or pretending, or anything of the sort. My point is to push the boundaries of how far courtesy and politeness should extend, and at what point objective reality steps in.

Scotland recently passed some regulation or whatnot (statute? rule?) so that police record the declared gender identity of a person being charged with a crime in all cases, and that they treat that person throughout the legal process on the basis of that declared gender identity. Scotland also defines rape as forcible nonconsensual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth with a penis. Forcible penetration with something other than a penis carries the same sentencing guidelines, but is not called 'rape'. So now, Scotland has taken the position that a male-bodied person who rapes another person but who declares themselves to be a woman must be recorded as a woman and referred to as a woman throughout their interactions with the justice system.

This means that the victim of a bepenised rapist is obligated to refer to their assailant as "she", regardless of how they perceive that person.

Do you think that it is right and appropriate for all parties that courtesy be given primacy in that situation?
 
Bullshit. I don't have a gender. I have a sex, and I have a set of regressive and harmful sex-based stereotypes that society tries really hard to force onto me. But I do NOT have a gender, nor do I have a gender identity.
Really?
Are you being sarcastic or something? Pardon my ignorance, what?

I had never considered your gender in question. (I assumed it matched your sex, but I don't care enough to think about it)

Did I miss something somehow?
Tom
I reject gender. I've never conformed to society's standards of gender. When I was young, and gender was just another word for sex, I was fine with that. It was just a synonym. When the term began to be used to represent social stereotypes and sex-based roles I was okay with that usage, and I was also okay with the fact that I didn't fit those stereotypes. In fact, I considered it a great example of progress that I and other people could be "gender-benders" and reject those stereotypes for the smelly tripe that they are.

Now, however, we've entered a point in time where the term "gender" is being used to define an "identity", and that "identity" is rather strongly based on those stereotypes that I have rejected since I was a child.

I reject that meaning of the term, and I reject the ideology behind it. My SEX is female. And I have never hidden that. But I absolutely reject the attribution of any sort of gender to my person. I reject it in exactly the same way that I reject the attribution of any sort of faith or religion to my person. I do not believe in this conceptualization of gender. I find this conceptualization of gender to be harmful, regressive, and confining.

What you've missed is that the meaning of the term has changed, and that I reject the new meaning being foisted upon me.

I am female. I'm an adult female human. But if you are going to use the term "woman" to refer to the behaviors, characteristics, and social roles dropped on females, then I sir, am no woman. Nor am I a man. Nor am I non-binary. I'm agenderist.
 
But nothing you wrote dispels the basic notion that pronoun use is most often based on perception not actual body identification.
Then there cannot be any misgendering. If I perceive somebody to be of the sex 'male', I use 'he'.

This is the problem. You find your own perception more important than another, autonomous, human. You can do that, but you're being rude.

It is not a problem that my perception aligns with reality. In fact, it is perceptions that do not align with reality that are the problem.

Are people being rude to Rachel Dolezal when they do not perceive her to be black, and refuse to accept her as black?
Up thread, I mentioned Andrea. Very tall, big shoulders, wearing a dress and lipstick. I introduced myself as Tom, she introduced herself as Andrea. Her physique was male, her attire female. A female gendered name was the tie breaker, this person I'd never met before preferred female references.
'Andrea' means 'manly'. I don't know if that is ironic or not.

It just wasn't that difficult to navigate the cues towards a civil conversation. Because Andrea's sex is utterly unimportant to me. Her gender only mattered out of politeness. All I wanted was to get along with a stranger. We were early to an event and sat around in the lobby for awhile, having a pleasant conversation. That's how I know she was born Andrew.

Bottom line is simple. Play nice. You needn't be honest or precise about everything. Better if you're not.
Tom
"Play nice"? Do you think people should accept Rachel Dolezal as black? That they should 'play nice' with her race identity?
 
Objective reality is this:

1) I am a transgender person that is not easily offended, and

2) transgender people that actually are easily offended are just like anybody else that is easily offended.

It ain't my fault, but I told ya so.
 
I forgot I was not in this world but Wonderland. In this world, people have gender and sex. Babies have gender identities even if they are not aware of them.
Bullshit. I don't have a gender. I have a sex, and I have a set of regressive and harmful sex-based stereotypes that society tries really hard to force onto me. But I do NOT have a gender, nor do I have a gender identity.

This is analogous to a theist insisting that atheists have religion because all people have religion, the atheist just doesn't understand or acknowledge their faith. I know you've run across that argument, and I know you view that as a fallacious argument.

The pattern of the argument is no different from yours.
In a previous post, laughing dog said that 'gender' was how somebody perceived somebody else's sex. So, according to laughing dog's definition, you do have a gender--the sum total of how other people regard your sex, I guess?

If somebody's gender is my (society's) perception of their sex, then I am not 'misgendering' anybody by using pronouns that correspond to my perception of their sex. And if somebody's gender is their own perception of their own sex, then they can be wrong about their own sex, and why ought their misperception (where there gender and sex are not the same) be respected?

I don't have a gender, either. I am a man, not because 'man' is my self-identity, not because I have 'man-thoughts', but I am a man because I am an adult human male. If somebody took the brain out of my head, my dead body would be male, no matter what I thought about it.

I am also 6'8" with a size 15 shoe. No self-identity otherwise can make me shorter. Asking people to believe I was 5'2", just because I really wanted to be, would be the kind of nerve I wouldn't want in my tooth.

I also ethnically a Slav. No amount of pretending otherwise can change my ethnicity.

I was also born in a certain year, making me a certain age (I won't doxx myself here, though). No amount of pretending otherwise can change that, either.
 
All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

This is misleading. It repeats the falsehood that the only way to distinguish between a male and a female human is through genital inspection. And that's simply untrue. Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics are pretty goddamned obvious, almost all the time. If a person puts a huge amount of effort into hiding or masking those characteristics, they can trick people into being uncertain or into thinking they're the opposite sex.


So, you are talking to someone who was misgendered CONSTANTLY throughout chilldhood.
You call my childhood - through my early 20s, “simply untrue.”

Your arrogance is astonishing to behold. As is your monumentally wrong claim.
Is there any point in reading any more of your post after you make such a blatantly unfactual claim?
 
All through history, the use we have used most often is based on how someone presents because we are not privvy to their genitals.

This is misleading. It repeats the falsehood that the only way to distinguish between a male and a female human is through genital inspection. And that's simply untrue. Secondary and tertiary sex characteristics are pretty goddamned obvious, almost all the time. If a person puts a huge amount of effort into hiding or masking those characteristics, they can trick people into being uncertain or into thinking they're the opposite sex.


So, you are talking to someone who was misgendered CONSTANTLY throughout chilldhood.

You mean, you were mis-sexed. People used a word for you that did not match the reality of your sex?
 
Back
Top Bottom