This week in trans: NZ plans for sex self-ID on birth certificates

[Metaphor]

Something must be in the air of my antipodean neighbour New Zealand, as her government moves to allow alteration of birth certificate sex based on the gender of the applicant.

Rampant incoherence is certainly no barrier to this proposed law. The fact sheet explains:

People can choose to amend the sex shown on their birth certificate if they want it to reflect the gender they identify with. The Government is proposing an easier way for people to do this. People would apply to amend their sex
by submitting a statutory declaration. Applicants would submit a statutory declaration saying they want to amend the sex shown on their birth certificate and they intend to live as a person of this gender.

Now, it was my understanding that sex and gender were separate, but apparently, they are interchangeable.

I was worried that 'living as a person of this gender' might be an unfair barrier to people who want to wish away their sex, but since there are no definitions of what on earth it would mean to live as a particular gender, nor any evidence or tests required, we can safely say it's like agreeing to the statement 'I intend to eat food in the future'.

A statutory declaration is a written statement to confirm something is true and is completed in front of an authorised witness, like a Justice of the Peace. People would no longer be required to show evidence of medical treatment or go to the Family Court. Currently, people who want to amend the sex recorded on their birth certificate must go through the Family Court. People must also prove they’ve had medical treatment to physically conform with the sex they want on their birth certificate. The new process removes these requirements.

It's a wonder NZ had the requirements in the first place. If publically declaring your gender is sufficient to change your sex, NZ ought have recognised this in the first place.

The NZ Parliament may have blundered, however, when they held a call for public submissions into the changes, as it seems nearly three quarters of submissions were against the changes--as tabulated by transphobic, knuckle dragging hate group Speak Up For Women NZ. Listening to the vox populi was exhausting and frustrating and beneath the dignity, apparently, of MP Deborah Russell. Her parliamentary under-secretary salary of a mere NZ$194,374 is barely adequate compensation to listen to the hoi polloi prattle.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Nah, NZ is too slow. In Argentina, it's been legal to do that since 2012.

(sources in Spanish I'm afraid, but Google Translate might help).

http://servicios.infoleg.gob.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/195000-199999/197860/norma.htm
https://www.argentina.gob.ar/justicia/derechofacil/leysimple/identidad-de-genero

It's a wonder NZ had the requirements in the first place. If publically declaring your gender is sufficient to change your sex, NZ ought have recognised this in the first place.

Yeah, what's up with that? In Argentina, a declaration is enough. It does not need to be public, though, in the sense the records are confidential (it's also free of charge, no need for a lawyer, etc.)
Again, NZ is too slow.

 

[Metaphor]

Nah, NZ is too slow. In Argentina, it's been legal to do that since 2012.

(sources in Spanish I'm afraid, but Google Translate might help).

http://servicios.infoleg.gob.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/195000-199999/197860/norma.htm
https://www.argentina.gob.ar/justicia/derechofacil/leysimple/identidad-de-genero

It's a wonder NZ had the requirements in the first place. If publically declaring your gender is sufficient to change your sex, NZ ought have recognised this in the first place.

Yeah, what's up with that? In Argentina, a declaration is enough. It does not need to be public, though, in the sense the records are confidential (it's also free of charge, no need for a lawyer, etc.)
Again, NZ is too slow.

Actually, I may have misspoken. A statutory declaration needs to be signed and witnessed, but a stat dec isn't necessarily a 'public' declaration - more an 'official' declaration.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Metaphor]

Thank you for your thoughtful and substantive contribution.

 

[Jarhyn]

Can you fill me in here where they are insisting that the ability of other people to deprive them of awareness of what is in those people's pants somehow disrupts some other aspect of the original complainer's own lives beyond the need after the second or third date to ask, somewhere between "I have a thing for feet" and "come in for coffee", "so, what would I be working with?"

 

[ZiprHead]

Thank you for your thoughtful and substantive contribution.

Should I have used an old man yelling at clouds meme instead?

 

[thebeave]

Lots of people here have their pet issues and interests. I don't think I need to associate a name with them, as I'm sure they're obvious. Things like:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Police Bad
Orange Man Bad and Trumpsuckers
Capitalism Bad, Socialism Good
White People (in particular White Men) Bad
Right Wing Authoritarian Followers

Those don't seem to get called out. Why do you single out Metaphor's "hobby horse"?

 

[Jarhyn]

Lots of people here have their pet issues and interests. Things like:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Police Bad
Orange Man Bad and Trumpsuckers
Capitalism Bad, Socialism Good
White People (in particular White Men) Bad
Right Wing Authoritarian Followers

Those don't seem to get called out. Why do you single out Metaphor's "hobby horse"?

Because the majority of those other treatments of other issues aren't "people do reasonable thing, let's be unreasonable in response" or "unreasonable fringe does unreasonable thing, core must also be unreasonable" or occasionally "one side of a two sided story, spun so as to relieve the side acting inappropriately of responsibility for the outcome."

This is the first of those: "people do reasonable thing, let's be unreasonable in response".

Ostensibly metaphor and I have high intersection in our sets of topics upon which we post but as you might notice, I'm not here posting frequent threads about it; I merely respond in threads where people are being fucking stupid about gender issues, and occasionally discuss philosophy.

In all honesty, if people stopped posting stupid threads trying to marginalize or direct harm towards trans persons my post count per day average would plummet.

 

[Trausti]

If a person changes the sex on their birth certificate, goes missing, and the found bones don’t match the revised birth certificate, what then? Still missing?

 

[Jarhyn]

If a person changes the sex on their birth certificate, goes missing, and the found bones don’t match the revised birth certificate, what then? Still missing?

What happens then is that idiots implode from the fact that "hip bone shape" is not generally the sum total of how bones found are identified. These days we have such things as implant serial numbers, jewelry/personal possessions/dental records, and forensic analysis, and the fact that friends are generally going to know what specifics need "looking for", you're just at this point "why can't I hold all these limes"-ing

 

[Trausti]

If a person changes the sex on their birth certificate, goes missing, and the found bones don’t match the revised birth certificate, what then? Still missing?

What happens then is that idiots implode from the fact that "hip bone shape" is not generally the sum total of how bones found are identified. These days we have such things as implant serial numbers, jewelry/personal possessions/dental records, and forensic analysis, and the fact that friends are generally going to know what specifics need "looking for", you're just at this point "why can't I hold all these limes"-ing

But if the remains were found in Dahmer’s freezer, what to do? I guess they could do a DNA test? Oh, whoops.

 

[Elixir]

Can you fill me in here where they are insisting that the ability of other people to deprive them of awareness of what is in those people's pants somehow disrupts some other aspect of the original complainer's own lives beyond the need after the second or third date to ask, somewhere between "I have a thing for feet" and "come in for coffee", "so, what would I be working with?"

I could see being interested in what's in a person's pants. But not everyone's pants, for chrissakes.
But maybe there's nothing really wrong with that - just a primal thing.
It's like dogs: "glad to meet you, love how your butt smells!" or "hey buddy I don't like how your butt smells and GRRRoowl %*&$#@!"

 

[Keith&Co.]

I could see being interested in what's in a person's pants. But not everyone's pants, for chrissakes.

It's a very human trait, i think. And maybe one subject to fads? Or heightened awareness, for various reasons?

There was a survey, years back, that i took.
It asked about when you see people in public, do you try to figure out if they're straight or gay?
Or how much of the time you try to guess or interpret people's gender pref.

Frankly, I'm only ever going to have sex with one person. So the sexuality of anyone else i see isn't important to me. If they're attractive, i notice, but it doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't a chance they'd return the interest.

Right after we had kids, i did look at people and try to figure out their ethnicity. or at least wondered about it. Because it certainly seemed to be bigly important to people trying to figure out which of my kids were ours and which were mine by a previous marriage.

Nowadays, my gut reaction to seeing strangers is to try to figure out if they voted for Trump.

 

[Jarhyn]

I could see being interested in what's in a person's pants. But not everyone's pants, for chrissakes.

It's a very human trait, i think. And maybe one subject to fads? Or heightened awareness, for various reasons?

There was a survey, years back, that i took.
It asked about when you see people in public, do you try to figure out if they're straight or gay?
Or how much of the time you try to guess or interpret people's gender pref.

Frankly, I'm only ever going to have sex with one person. So the sexuality of anyone else i see isn't important to me. If they're attractive, i notice, but it doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't a chance they'd return the interest.

Right after we had kids, i did look at people and try to figure out their ethnicity. or at least wondered about it. Because it certainly seemed to be bigly important to people trying to figure out which of my kids were ours and which were mine by a previous marriage.

Nowadays, my gut reaction to seeing strangers is to try to figure out if they voted for Trump.

Part of the joy of those kinds of things is the truth of the mystery though, the thrill of finding truth while doing ones best not to make a Tinkerbell effect (observer bias) happen and/or cause pain in playing the game.

Such thought is best left as a pique to curiousity and an internal invitation to engage. To turn it against people using surety rather than doubt is a fool's errand.

 

[Metaphor]

Can you fill me in here where they are insisting that the ability of other people to deprive them of awareness of what is in those people's pants somehow disrupts some other aspect of the original complainer's own lives beyond the need after the second or third date to ask, somewhere between "I have a thing for feet" and "come in for coffee", "so, what would I be working with?"

Jarhyn asking other people to do the work, as he does relentlessly in all these threads.

 

[Metaphor]

Thank you for your thoughtful and substantive contribution.

Should I have used an old man yelling at clouds meme instead?

No, I'd prefer if somebody had nothing valuable to contribute that they don't contribute at all.

But then, there's a power differential here, isn't there? You own the site, so what I prefer probably does not matter.

 

[ZiprHead]

Should I have used an old man yelling at clouds meme instead?

No, I'd prefer if somebody had nothing valuable to contribute that they don't contribute at all.

But then, there's a power differential here, isn't there? You own the site, so what I prefer probably does not matter.

Well, you finally got one thing right.

 

[none]

Should I have used an old man yelling at clouds meme instead?

No, I'd prefer if somebody had nothing valuable to contribute that they don't contribute at all.

But then, there's a power differential here, isn't there? You own the site, so what I prefer probably does not matter.

Well, you finally got one thing right.

He is confused by men sticking fingers where they don't belong

 

[none]

Maybe that one was too inflammatory eeck