This week in Woke: Actresses justly cancelled for committing atrocities

[krypton iodine sulfur]

If Halle Berry backing out of a transgender role was the only thing the Woke had ever done, I wouldn't be afraid of them.

Might be a more believable statement if Halle Berry backing out of the role was actually one thing the "Woke" had done.

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes, it can. You can stop parading your fallacy of division as if it were a legitimate argument. If Halle Berry backing out of a transgender role was the only thing the Woke had ever done, I wouldn't be afraid of them.

So, if the Halle Berry thing was nothing to fear, and your OP was based on fear of the thing that happened to Halle Berry, I think it is safe to conclude that the OP is simply a case of fear mongering.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Metaphor, is this thread over yet?

BTW - Next time can you start off with the fact that your thread is just going to be a bit of fear mongering, so we don't have to spend 15 pages getting you to admit it.

 

[Bomb#20]

Seems like a relevant story, but I don't speak Drunken Rant, and don't have enough beer in the house to learn it tonight. You wouldn't happen to have a source that details the main storyline in regular English (or German, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian; hell, even Slovenian, Spanish, Russian, Italian or Dutch might be easier to process than this).

Sorry about that. Here's a less inebriated source:

Očitno je nespametna uporaba homonimov lahko pot, ki je v veliki meri nevarna, kot je bilo zagotovo v tem primeru.
Zato ne bi smelo biti presenečenje, da je današnja analiza Adlerja in (retrospektivno) nesrečna izbira besed hitro postala virusna.
Zdi se, da je tvit, ki je nosil identifikacijsko številko reporterja New York Timesa, trdil, da je Adler na ESPN - iz nobenega drugega razloga, kot da je rasizem razgrel - pravkar imenoval Venus Williams "gorilo."
Phil Mushnick, ugledni kolumnist New York Postave, je odigral vlogo samotnega volka v podporo Adlerju in poznejšo obsodbo ESPN.
Opazil je, da je "igra v gverilstvu - nenadne zasede na mreži - postala pogost izraz v tenisu, tako da sta Andre Agassi in Pete Sampras v (fenomenalno uspešni) reklami Nike iz leta 1995 [reklamno kampanjo med ameriškim letom ZDA igrala zvezda Odpri] igranje "gverilskega tenisa."
Tako je polepšal: "Toda ena oseba, za katero je ESPN domneval, da ima New York Times, se je odločila, da je Adler Williamsa poimenovala" gorilla ", [in s tem] v svoji vlogi svobodnega teniškega pisatelja Timesa, je Adlerja obtožila, da je nepomemben rasist . Ben Rothenberg, še vedno teniški teniški svobodnjak, je nepremišljeno tvitnil obrekovanje Adlerja, obtožujoč, da je njegov rasizem 'grozljiv' in da je grozljivo, da se morajo Williamsove sestre temu letu 2017 podrediti. "
To je bil začetek konca za Adlerja.
ESPN si je prizadeval, da bi zakril svoje "vodilne na svetu" za kupljenimi, odkimaval in vljudil zadrego, ko je omrežje predpogočno brcnilo Adlerja na rob močne nesmiselne trditve Rothenberga.​

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you feel that casting, in general, should be gender-blind? Since, as you say, there shouldn't be anything stopping a man from portraying a woman effectively, or vice versa?

My take:

Scriptwriters should aim for the minimum constraints on a character. Casting should respect the constraints that do exist on a character, although in most situations a trans person could fill a role of the gender they present as. Same for things like race--especially with historical stuff it will look wrong if you don't respect the limits and sometimes you simply need consistency--those with genetic ties should look it.

Developed characters should respect the character even if that's politically incorrect at this point. James Bond is a cultured, womanizing white man and should not be cast in any other way--but note that the controversy was with casting someone else as 007, not someone else as James Bond. 007 is a position, the torch can be passed.

And how is casting a woman as a trans man, let alone deadnaming and misgendering said character, "respecting the character" in any sense of that word?

And how is it disrespecting?

 

[Politesse]

And how is casting a woman as a trans man, let alone deadnaming and misgendering said character, "respecting the character" in any sense of that word?

And how is it disrespecting?

I'm baffled as to how it could be perceived as anything else. If I tell you, "My name is Ryan, and I am male", and you say, "No it isn't and no you are not, my opinion about your genitals matters more than your self-worth", you may think you are justified but you are definitely not being respectful.

 

[Metaphor]

So, if the Halle Berry thing was nothing to fear, and your OP was based on fear of the thing that happened to Halle Berry, I think it is safe to conclude that the OP is simply a case of fear mongering.

No, the above is fractally wrong. The whole thing is wrong and when you look closer at smaller parts, they are wrong also.

The incident with Halle Berry would be nothing to "fear" if it were an isolated incident.

My OP was based on what happened to Halle Berry as well as other people, and I have also made several OPs about the activities of the Woke before. The Woke come after celebrities as well as ordinary people. Now, perhaps it doesn't matter to you, because you are already one of the Faithful. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't matter to others.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Metaphor, is this thread over yet?

BTW - Next time can you start off with the fact that your thread is just going to be a bit of fear mongering, so we don't have to spend 15 pages getting you to admit it.

Given your limited ability to process arguments, coupled with your insufferable penchant for attempting gotchas, it's only a shame that your responses took up any space at all.

 

[KeepTalking]

Given your limited ability to process arguments, coupled with your insufferable penchant for attempting gotchas, it's only a shame that your responses took up any space at all.

If you think trying to get you to apply reason and logic while examining your viewpoint is attempting a gotcha, I guess we really have nothing to discuss. Your inability to entertain the notion that your fear might be misplaced means that starting threads like this is just a masturbatory exercise for you. Enjoy the fapping.

 

[Metaphor]

Given your limited ability to process arguments, coupled with your insufferable penchant for attempting gotchas, it's only a shame that your responses took up any space at all.

If you think trying to get you to apply reason and logic while examining your viewpoint is attempting a gotcha, I guess we really have nothing to discuss. Your inability to entertain the notion that your fear might be misplaced means that starting threads like this is just a masturbatory exercise for you. Enjoy the fapping.

Hearing about "logic" and "reason" from you, somebody who confidently trumpets his own inability to recognise the multiple informal fallacies he's made, is laughable.

 

[KeepTalking]

Given your limited ability to process arguments, coupled with your insufferable penchant for attempting gotchas, it's only a shame that your responses took up any space at all.

If you think trying to get you to apply reason and logic while examining your viewpoint is attempting a gotcha, I guess we really have nothing to discuss. Your inability to entertain the notion that your fear might be misplaced means that starting threads like this is just a masturbatory exercise for you. Enjoy the fapping.

Hearing about "logic" and "reason" from you, somebody who confidently trumpets his own inability to recognise the multiple informal fallacies he's made, is laughable.

Now that is laughable. Only one of us in this thread is attempting to spread fear using an issue that they have admitted does not lend legitimacy to the fear being spread. I don't believe I have committed any fallacies, I certainly have not trumpeted them if I have made them, and I don't believe any fallacies have been pointed out. Oh, but you said "Informal fallacies", so you just get to make shit up, and call it a fallacy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And how is casting a woman as a trans man, let alone deadnaming and misgendering said character, "respecting the character" in any sense of that word?

And how is it disrespecting?

I'm baffled as to how it could be perceived as anything else. If I tell you, "My name is Ryan, and I am male", and you say, "No it isn't and no you are not, my opinion about your genitals matters more than your self-worth", you may think you are justified but you are definitely not being respectful.

We are talking about Hollywood--people are always portraying characters that aren't them. How is this case any different?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I'm baffled as to how it could be perceived as anything else. If I tell you, "My name is Ryan, and I am male", and you say, "No it isn't and no you are not, my opinion about your genitals matters more than your self-worth", you may think you are justified but you are definitely not being respectful.

We are talking about Hollywood--people are always portraying characters that aren't them. How is this case any different?

And of course, no one is saying anything about self-worth, but about the meaning of the words. Saying something like 'you are mistaken about the meaning of the words' or even 'on the basis of the evidence available, I reckon that your brain is likely more female-like than male-like', or things like that, is not remotely a claim about the other person's self-worth.

That's for the claim about being male. As for the name, what do you mean?

 

[Politesse]

I'm baffled as to how it could be perceived as anything else. If I tell you, "My name is Ryan, and I am male", and you say, "No it isn't and no you are not, my opinion about your genitals matters more than your self-worth", you may think you are justified but you are definitely not being respectful.

We are talking about Hollywood--people are always portraying characters that aren't them. How is this case any different?

Casting couches in Hollywood aren't talent shows; you're always sending a message. So what message is being sent if you intentionally misgender a character through your casting decisions, which belongs to a minority group that is constantly misgendered in real life?

 

[Politesse]

I'm baffled as to how it could be perceived as anything else. If I tell you, "My name is Ryan, and I am male", and you say, "No it isn't and no you are not, my opinion about your genitals matters more than your self-worth", you may think you are justified but you are definitely not being respectful.

We are talking about Hollywood--people are always portraying characters that aren't them. How is this case any different?

And of course, no one is saying anything about self-worth, but about the meaning of the words. Saying something like 'you are mistaken about the meaning of the words' or even 'on the basis of the evidence available, I reckon that your brain is likely more female-like than male-like', or things like that, is not remotely a claim about the other person's self-worth.

That's for the claim about being male. As for the name, what do you mean?

Well, you're being consistent at least; you don't see bigoted comments as being wrong when you say them in real life, so of course you don't see a problem with making them about a fictional character. That's fine as far as it goes, but I'm glad that society is moving beyond you. I spent enough damn years in the closet to never want to see it done to anyone else, ever again.

 

[Metaphor]

Now that is laughable. Only one of us in this thread is attempting to spread fear using an issue that they have admitted does not lend legitimacy to the fear being spread.

I didn't say that and I explained why your interpretation is wrong.

I don't believe I have committed any fallacies, I certainly have not trumpeted them if I have made them, and I don't believe any fallacies have been pointed out. Oh, but you said "Informal fallacies", so you just get to make shit up, and call it a fallacy.

I've explained many of them in my previous responses. I'm not doing it again.

No. Informal logical fallacies is not a term I invented. It is not 'making shit up'.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, you're being consistent at least; you don't see bigoted comments as being wrong when you say them in real life, so of course you don't see a problem with making them about a fictional character.

Now you change to the "bigoted" insult, and also you make it about me. But you're stil wrong, and you have not provided any basis to believe otherwise. The "bigoted" part is your Woke insult against me. I challenge you to find any comment I have made that you claim to be bigoted, and debate whether or not it is bigoted.

That's fine as far as it goes, but I'm glad that society is moving beyond you.

Sure, when a religion/ideology spreads irrationality and falsehood throughout society, I do not follow it (though I pretend when the punishment for failing to submit is severe enough).

I spent enough damn years in the closet to never want to see it done to anyone else, ever again.

I spent years arguing against Christians who claimed that same-sex sex was immoral.

 

[Politesse]

Now you change to the "bigoted" insult, and also you make it about me. But you're stil wrong, and you have not provided any basis to believe otherwise. The "bigoted" part is your Woke insult against me. I challenge you to find any comment I have made that you claim to be bigoted, and debate whether or not it is bigoted.


Sure, when a religion/ideology spreads irrationality and falsehood throughout society, I do not follow it (though I pretend when the punishment for failing to submit is severe enough).

I spent enough damn years in the closet to never want to see it done to anyone else, ever again.

I spent years arguing against Christians who claimed that same-sex sex was immoral.

Thanks. Now grow up and realize that no one elected you to be the genital police either.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Now you change to the "bigoted" insult, and also you make it about me. But you're stil wrong, and you have not provided any basis to believe otherwise. The "bigoted" part is your Woke insult against me. I challenge you to find any comment I have made that you claim to be bigoted, and debate whether or not it is bigoted.


Sure, when a religion/ideology spreads irrationality and falsehood throughout society, I do not follow it (though I pretend when the punishment for failing to submit is severe enough).

I spent enough damn years in the closet to never want to see it done to anyone else, ever again.

I spent years arguing against Christians who claimed that same-sex sex was immoral.

Thanks. Now grow up and realize that no one elected you to be the genital police either.

What does that even mean? Yes, I know, it is an insult. The tone makes it clear that you are insulting me, I do get that part. But insults often still have a meaning, in addition to the insulting tone. Is "genital police" an insult with a meaning, or just a meaningless utterance? If the former, what is the accusation, and what is the basis for it? Evidence? Anything at all? If the latter, why do you make meaningless utterances against me?

 

[ruby sparks]

By the way, can someone clear something up for me. Is/was the trans character in the script deadnamed by another character? Personally, I haven't yet read anything about the content of the script or roles. I can't even find the name of the film in fact. And if a characrer deadnamed the trans character in the narrative, how was that (deadnaming) character and that deadnaming presented or dealt with?

To use an analogy, someone in a film, for example a gay (or black) character, could be treated disrespectfully, but it wouldn't damn the film unless the film presented it as ok to treat such characters disrespectfully. Nor would it make it wrong to play the part of the person disrespected.

 

[ruby sparks]

I see that Scarlett Johansson also dropped out of a role (playing a trans man) in similar circumstances in 2018:

Scarlett Johansson Exits Trans Film ‘Rub and Tug’ Amid Backlash
https://variety.com/2018/film/news/scarlett-johansson-exit-rub-and-tug-trans-backlash-1202872981/

As far as I know, the film project has not gone ahead.

 

[ruby sparks]

In contrast, here's an interesting example. A trans woman (Jamie Clayton) playing a trans woman, in the HBO series 'Hung'.

"When Thomas [the cis male actor playing Ray, opposite her] first got wind of Ray's new adventures, "the idea of kissing a man was not a comfortable one for him, but he did great," says creator Colette Burson, who is exploring the possibility of making Kyla Ray's full-time girlfriend in Season 4. "They had to kiss for hours. After his initial shyness, she became a woman for him." Any insecurities Thomas had disappeared when he arrived on set. "I asked, 'So where's the guy?' and was told, 'That's her!'" he told me at the 2011 Saturn Awards. "There was this beautiful girl who blew me away.""

https://www.tvguide.com/news/kecks-... transgender,was cohosting VH1's TRANSform Me.





Jamie Clayton. I'd kiss her. Can't think of any reason not to. I'd be a very lucky guy to be given the chance. Nor, for that matter, can I think of a good reason for insisting on calling her a man. If nothing else, it feels unnecessarily intolerant and inflexible. She's a trans woman.

She has also played a trans woman role in the tv series 'Sense8'.

More roles for trans persons playing trans characters would be a good thing, imo. I'm still not entirely sure there should be quite such a fuss about cis people playing them.

On the upside, at least it (the issue of trans gender roles in films and indeed trans gender in general) is now being talked about more, which I think is overall a good thing on balance.

Next potential controversy: transgender actors who do not pass as their gender identity (and/or have not physically transitioned) not getting transgender roles?