Thread of the Temple of the Search for Truth

[Cheerful Charlie]

What is your position on the age of the earth and evolution?

Sorry Pood, Temple's closed down. Ill just say somewhere between 6000 years and 6000 Billion - whatever the science tells us.

So, if the science tells us the earth is about 4.6 billion years old and that humans are products of evolution that link us to common ancestry, your interpretation of Christianity accepts that? Bear in mind that evolution shows there never was a Garden of Eden, that life has always been a struggle for survival, and that there was no Adam and Eve, no first man and woman. Rather, there were seminal populations of humans, but not a first man and woman. So the age of the earth and evolution wholly discredit a literalist reading of Genesis, and it undermines the Bible’s stated reason for Christ being on earth, to somehow redeem Adam’s original sin (science shows there was no Adam). You’re OK, with this? If so, what’s left of Christianity?

Hi Pood. Thank you for our question. For myself, when it comes to Genesis, I have not taken it literally, but more as symbolic. So maybe there was no exact Adam or Eve or Eden, but what is the meaning behind these stories? So there's no real Adam, I don't think we need to throw the entire Bible out. What's left? The rest. The promise of a Messiah. The arrival of that Messiah who fit that promise to a T.

This was an ancient myth that was repurposed by the ancient Jewish writers.The whole reason for this myth in any form was to explain why life is hard. Why the Gods do not like us and make life easier. This is so obvious, it is embaressing so many don't get it.

 

[steve_bank]

The beauty of the liberal western democracies is we can all choose our own bullshit. Aint it great?

Still don't know how 1C figures out what is bullshit in the bible.

I get the mystical experince. One reads the bible contemplating Jesus and god, and gets a warm fuzzy good feeling. All due to thioe feel good endorphins in the brain.

That is what rituals do for us, including our daily routine rituals.

A Tibetan Buddhist story.

A guru puts two students in nearby huts. To one he gives a trditionaly correct mantra, to the other he gives a mantra he makes up on the spot. He tells them to spend a few monts mediting on the words.

When he cones back the one with the traditionaly correct mantra got nothing. The one with the made up mantra was aglow with happiness and trasquility.

It is not what you believe it is how you believe it. The placebo effect has been well demonstrated.

The bible and Christianity is the ultimate placebo effect.

 

[1ICrying]

The beauty of the liberal western democracies is we can all choose our own bullshit. Aint it great?

Still don't know how 1C figures out what is bullshit in the bible.

I get the mystical experince. One reads the bible contemplating Jesus and god, and gets a warm fuzzy good feeling. All due to thioe feel good endorphins in the brain.

That is what rituals do for us, including our daily routine rituals.

A Tibetan Buddhist story.

A guru puts two students in nearby huts. To one he gives a trditionaly correct mantra, to the other he gives a mantra he makes up on the spot. He tells them to spend a few monts mediting on the words.

When he cones back the one with the traditionaly correct mantra got nothing. The one with the made up mantra was aglow with happiness and trasquility.

It is not what you believe it is how you believe it. The placebo effect has been well demonstrated.

The bible and Christianity is the ultimate placebo effect.

How do i know what is bullshit in the Bible? Firstly, I believe it is important to know that there could be bullshit in the Bible. Many Christians might claim its 100% true, but even God himself said, basically, at the end of Revelations, "he who adds or subtracts to the words in this Bible will be in a whole trouble." So right there, from God, is an admission that things may get added or subtracted over time. So we need to be wary of that.

So what may have been added or subtracted. Maybe some of the homophobic rhetoric in the New Testament. In fact, nearly all of the new 'rules' that get listed in the New Testament do not make much sense, since God had already declared just one new rule: Love. Love God and love your neighbour. For me that is the heart of the whole thing, so whatever goes contrary to that is off course. So just because some so called 'Christian' red necks somewhere are beating up on gays etc., does not make the Bible wrong, it makes them wrong. While we're on the subject, I don't think God put together humans the way he did and then said "whoops, I never thought they would do THAT!" No, God is cool with it all. He basically made a world full of zany creatures who all have one thing in common - they are all fucking each other in all variety of ways. That's God's doing. He put us here in this crazy 'perverted' world. Now if we would just learn to relax and enjoy it.

 

[1ICrying]

The beauty of the liberal western democracies is we can all choose our own bullshit. Aint it great?

Still don't know how 1C figures out what is bullshit in the bible.

I get the mystical experince. One reads the bible contemplating Jesus and god, and gets a warm fuzzy good feeling. All due to thioe feel good endorphins in the brain.

That is what rituals do for us, including our daily routine rituals.

A Tibetan Buddhist story.

A guru puts two students in nearby huts. To one he gives a trditionaly correct mantra, to the other he gives a mantra he makes up on the spot. He tells them to spend a few monts mediting on the words.

When he cones back the one with the traditionaly correct mantra got nothing. The one with the made up mantra was aglow with happiness and trasquility.

It is not what you believe it is how you believe it. The placebo effect has been well demonstrated.

The bible and Christianity is the ultimate placebo effect.

Yes, it is the ultimate placebo effect Mr. Banks. You will be happy for the rest of your life if you'd just swallow the little Jesus pill. I know, its not that easy...l.if you don't believe, you don't believe. But if you are foolish enough to get there, like me, then you'll have a sweet hallucination from here on out. Maybe even an actual heaven, ta boot. That's what we sincerely believe anyway. Makes life sweet. Thats all we drive by Christians want for ya all. So, If ya need help believen, just keep hangin out here in the Temple of the Search for Truth, like ya have been. I know you're a hard nut to crack, but I'm just keep loving you with the truth. There is a God, he loves you and is offering you heaven forever. But he can't force you. You gotta say yes. Psychologically, that means bowing down to God, which maybe you have trouble with. But as he says, his load is a light one, and I can testify to that. Amen

 

[steve_bank]

You are preaching and proselytizing. An observation not an attack. It is what Chrtians do.

In western liberal systems we have a right to self determination. We do not have a right to impose it on others.

A modern worse case scenario is Muslim states where it is illegal to change from Islam to atheist or another religion. The death penalty.

Religion is good for an individual. Collective action by religion tends to be harmful to those who disagree.

The problem is always when people think god says different things. The problem is interpreting what one thinks god wants.

Christians, Muslims, and Jews all supposedly believe in the same biblial hod. Yet think god wants difernt things leading to conflict.

You are welcome to your belie, categoricaly I want nothing to do with religion.

 

[Learner]

You are preaching and proselytizing. An observation not an attack. It is what Chrtians do.

That's what Christian's 'should' do - be preaching the Gospel (the good news).

In western liberal systems we have a right to self determination. We do not have a right to impose it on others.

Although I agree with you, we shouldn't be forcing onto others our ideals etc... but If you think this can never happen, or has never happened, imposing ideals (not necessarily religion) onto others in the Western world, you are quite mistaken.

A modern worse case scenario is Muslim states where it is illegal to change from Islam to atheist or another religion. The death penalty.

Religion is good for an individual. Collective action by religion tends to be harmful to those who disagree.

What is the modern worse case scenario as according to the Gospel? As according to Jesus? (assuming you're not going to give us an interpretation,that contradicts the Gospel reading, as I see it)

The problem is always when people think god says different things. The problem is interpreting what one thinks god wants.

Indeed, you would understand naturally, I would be expected to disagree with the (mis)interpretations from atheists.

Christians, Muslims, and Jews all supposedly believe in the same biblial hod. Yet think god wants difernt things leading to conflict.

Simply put, the conflict between the three, is the acceptance... or not... that Jesus is the Son of God.

You are welcome to your belie, categoricaly I want nothing to do with religion.

I'm sure this goes for 1|crying, I welcome the conversation on religion, as we've had quite a few times on the forum showing you have an interest at least to engage in these discussions giving us your pov.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When Revelation was written, there was no Bible. The New Testament was not finally defined until the early 5th century. The command not to add or subtract to this book meant Revelation only.

 

[steve_bank]

Going by the gospels Jesus was a Jewish refered to as a rabbi knowledgeable in Jewish history, scripture, and prophets.

In the context of the times as a Jew he was preaching to fellow Jews about the looming doom of the Jewish state at the hands of Rome, unless they got their act together. He was calling Jews of Isreal back to the discipline of Mosaic Law.

The looming destruction of Israel would have been obvious to most in Israel. The apocalypse came and went, the destruction of Israel and its temple.

If you want a modern loose analogy, look at the Israeli occupation of Palestine for Jewish expansion. Pestininan nationalism, ethnicity, and religion versus the Mid East military and economic power of modern Israel.

A wandering Jewish prophet form 2000 yeras ago would not have been addressing the greater world inlcusive of gentiles, he would have been talking excusively to fellow Jews.

The narrative of a Jewish prophet coming to save the entire world of humanity is an early gentile-Christian invention.

The cataclysmic apocalyptic battle between good and evil, aka Israel vs Rome, came and went. Israel lost. Satan as a nataphor for opposition to Israel.

 

[1ICrying]

All these litte probs with the Bible. Christians are supposed to:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I know what' you'll say - that's a good intro from any cult, but in this case (if it's the Cult you believe in) that's what God has instructed. So we don't have to know exactly how the magical sauce is made to enjoy it. As humans, we never really could understand it all anyway, but the Bible is a good little intro. Maybe God's working on a new little mini-series to keep up with the times, but I doubt it.

Anyhow, just because you don't grasp every word of the Bible, or have unanswered questions, it doesn't need to take away from the simple core message - How to get out of here alive. We are to believe. That's it. But I can't believe because ___, ___,____. Well just remember, you are to believe despite those things. You know....Blind faith. Give it a whirl. I know you can't right. Because you're just too damn smart and you read too many books and you know too much. Well, that's called pride folks, and that is your stumbling block...keeping you miserable. You have to enter like a child. Counter intuitive to all we know perhaps - becoming child-like was never supposed to be on the to-do list, but it is. And isn't that exactly what God did when he came down to Earth as Jesus...became a literal baby. Amen

 

[pood]

All these litte probs with the Bible. Christians are supposed to:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I know what' you'll say - that's a good intro from any cult, but in this case (if it's the Cult you believe in) that's what God has instructed.

How do you know that God instructed it? It IS a good intro from any cult — what makes your cult different? The bible is true because the bible says that it’s true? Erm? Every cult uses the same circular reasoning.

So we don't have to know exactly how the magical sauce is made to enjoy it. As humans, we never really could understand it all anyway, but the Bible is a good little intro. Maybe God's working on a new little mini-series to keep up with the times, but I doubt it.

Anyhow, just because you don't grasp every word of the Bible, or have unanswered questions, it doesn't need to take away from the simple core message - How to get out of here alive. We are to believe. That's it. But I can't believe because ___, ___,____. Well just remember, you are to believe despite those things. You know....Blind faith.

Exactly. Just like any cult. What makes your recipe of Kool Aid any different?

Give it a whirl. I know you can't right. Because you're just too damn smart and you read too many books and you know too much. Well, that's called pride folks, and that is your stumbling block...keeping you miserable.

Calling nonbelievers miserable is a non sequitur. Also, the world is full of hateful and miserable Christians. Just look at the evangelical Trump supporters.

You have to enter like a child. Counter intuitive to all we know perhaps - becoming child-like was never supposed to be on the to-do list, but it is. And isn't that exactly what God did when he came down to Earth as Jesus...became a literal baby. Amen

I think he was supposed to have supernaturally raped a woman who then birthed Jesus. Amen.

 

[1ICrying]

All these litte probs with the Bible. Christians are supposed to:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I know what' you'll say - that's a good intro from any cult, but in this case (if it's the Cult you believe in) that's what God has instructed.

How do you know that God instructed it? It IS a good intro from any cult — what makes your cult different? The bible is true because the bible says that it’s true? Erm? Every cult uses the same circular reasoning.

So we don't have to know exactly how the magical sauce is made to enjoy it. As humans, we never really could understand it all anyway, but the Bible is a good little intro. Maybe God's working on a new little mini-series to keep up with the times, but I doubt it.

Anyhow, just because you don't grasp every word of the Bible, or have unanswered questions, it doesn't need to take away from the simple core message - How to get out of here alive. We are to believe. That's it. But I can't believe because ___, ___,____. Well just remember, you are to believe despite those things. You know....Blind faith.

Exactly. Just like any cult. What makes your recipe of Kool Aid any different?

Give it a whirl. I know you can't right. Because you're just too damn smart and you read too many books and you know too much. Well, that's called pride folks, and that is your stumbling block...keeping you miserable.

Calling nonbelievers miserable is a non sequitur. Also, the world is full of hateful and miserable Christians. Just look at the evangelical Trump supporters.

You have to enter like a child. Counter intuitive to all we know perhaps - becoming child-like was never supposed to be on the to-do list, but it is. And isn't that exactly what God did when he came down to Earth as Jesus...became a literal baby. Amen

I think he was supposed to have supernaturally raped a woman who then birthed Jesus. Amen.

As I mentioned, what makes this Kool Aid different, for me, is that the sum of it all, discerned by me, adds up to TRUE - from what I have read in the Bible and about the Bible - it always comes out TRUE. For you of course, you have come to a different conclusion. So, getting past that (as I conceded in the beginning - it is a great line for any cult - JUST SHUTUP and BELIEVE) but getting past that, we believe and consequently have what I would believe, in general, would likely be a less miserable life than to believe otherwise.

But please, prove me wrong. As I've asked before, where do you see yourself in 80 years and why, but no one wants to answer. I believe Ill be in heaven....so that keeps me smiling,,,and you believe _____? And that makes you feel how?

I'm not trying to make anyone here feel poorly, but if anyone does feel a little down because of their future outlook, then might I suggest that you take another look at that book that its in every hotel room drawer and online even, and know that you can believe in it - by just choosing to. Just as we can choose to be happy, we can choose to believe in the mysterious salvation that the Bible provides.

The Trump supporters are not real followers of Christ. They are not loving their neighbour - they are violent etc.

Did God rape Mary? Either way, I'm guessing he was fairly gentle.

1IC

 

[bilby]

Meh. In eighty years I will be dead.

I was dead for forever. I was dead for forever before I was born, and I will be dead forever once I die.

It's not a hardship; And there will be no gods or TRUTH that will change that.

 

[pood]

As I mentioned, what makes this Kool Aid different, for me, is that the sum of it all, discerned by me, adds up to TRUE - from what I have read in the Bible and about the Bible - it always comes out TRUE.

On the contrary, it always comes out FALSE. For example, Christ said he would return before the people listening to him had died. Two thousand years later … zippo. So that was false. The bible said there was a first man and woman. Evolution shows that was false. The bible says there was once paradise — that was false. Life has always been red in tooth and claw. Of couse you could claim that Adam and Eve and Eden were some kind of metaphors, but then metahors for what? The bible can’t be literally true — but since it’s not, what, exactly, is true about it?

For you of course, you have come to a different conclusion. So, getting past that (as I conceded in the beginning - it is a great line for any cult - JUST SHUTUP and BELIEVE) but getting past that, we believe and consequently have what I would believe, in general, would likely be a less miserable life than to believe otherwise.

It’s really astonishingly presumptuous of you to believe that non-believers are miserable. In any case, it’s obvious that you believe because it makes you happy. It’s called wishful thinking. I, otoh, base my believes on evidence. Since there is zero evidence for any god, I have zero belief in any god.

But please, prove me wrong. As I've asked before, where do you see yourself in 80 years and why, but no one wants to answer. I believe Ill be in heaven....so that keeps me smiling,,,and you believe _____?

I’ll be dead.

And that makes you feel how?

Just fine, thanks.

I'm not trying to make anyone here feel poorly, but if anyone does feel a little down because of their future outlook, then might I suggest that you take another look at that book that its in every hotel room drawer and online even, and know that you can believe in it - by just choosing to. Just as we can choose to be happy, we can choose to believe in the mysterious salvation that the Bible provides.

Someone once suggested putting Henry Miller’s Tropic of Cancer in every hotel room drawer. I believe that would be a distinct improvement.

The Trump supporters are not real followers of Christ. They are not loving their neighbour - they are violent etc.

I see, No True Scotsman, etc. Yawn.

Did God rape Mary? Either way, I'm guessing he was fairly gentle.

1IC

So there’s gentle rape?

 

[Rhea]

As I mentioned, what makes this Kool Aid different, for me, is that the sum of it all, discerned by me, adds up to TRUE - from what I have read in the Bible and about the Bible - it always comes out TRUE.

What does that mean, “it comes out true”?
What comes out true?

we believe and consequently have what I would believe, in general, would likely be a less miserable life than to believe otherwise.

But that is demonstrably false, as all the etheists here have told you. None of us is more miserable than you.
Are you sure you’re comfortable making a statement that is not true?

Perhaps YOU are less miserable thinking that you’re going to get a lollipop after your shot, but the rest of us are not miserable for knowing there are no lollipops.

But please, prove me wrong. As I've asked before, where do you see yourself in 80 years and why, but no one wants to answer.

People on ths site have answered this a thousand times. You’re not the first, or even the 100th, to ask the same question. Did you think this was a new question?

We’ll be in the same place that we were before we were born.

I believe Ill be in heaven....so that keeps me smiling,,,

This seems like an appropriate place for a nice quote, even though you have not demonstrated that a believer actually *is* happier:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life." ― George Bernard Shaw, Androcles and the Lion

and you believe _____? And that makes you feel how?

I believe that I have ENORMOUS enjoyment of life - the life that you hate and fear and can’t wait to get out of, and dream of a different life that you’ll like better.

I feel like I have support for the idea that the skeptic is, indeed happier in this life than you are. You can’t stop talk about leaving it behind.

I'm not trying to make anyone here feel poorly,

You don’t make anyone here feel poorly, dear. Bless your heart.

but if anyone does feel a little down because of their future outlook,

They don’t, thanks for asking.

then might I suggest that you take another look at that book that its in every hotel room drawer and online even, and know that you can believe in it - by just choosing to.

Now this is a most curious thing. You can believe things just because you want to? They don’t need to be believable? Do you fear that you might be believing false things, when it’s so easy?

Just as we can choose to be happy, we can choose to believe in the mysterious salvation that the Bible provides.

But… why?

The Trump supporters are not real followers of Christ.
They are not loving their neighbour - they are violent etc.

Ahhhh, and when did you become able to see intto the hearts of men?
tsk tsk. Love your neighbor, as yourself. Love the sinner, don’t condemn them to hell. Tsk.
It doesn’t matter if they are followers of Christ today, though, does it? All they have to do is choose to believe a second before they die. It’s “as easy as choosing to be happy,” amirite?

Did God rape Mary? Either way, I'm guessing he was fairly gentle.

Holy fuck, that’s sick.

 

[IIDB Staff]

This thread has been moved from Religion vs. Science forum to General Religion forum due to lack of science.

Moreover; it has begun leaning into preaching, which is against the TOU. It needs to return to honest debate with posters on issues, not mere extolling to read a religious book

 

[dbz]

So, let's search for the truth shall we.
I'm, as mentioned, still under the magical spell of the Bible, and all it's blissful promises,
And you? What is your

TRUTH?

Christians now falsely believe they are the righteous; when they are now, in fact, the damned. And this is by their own Book’s description; by the words of their own supposed Christ—whose teachings they have abandoned, for exactly their opposite. Christ they have repudiated and spat upon; the Antichrist now they serve.

So here we are.

I have abundantly shown that most conservative Christians are actually behaving in accord with the ideals of the Antichrist. Christians are warned that even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; the Antichrist, likewise. It’s simple math. To worship and follow Christ means to embody in your beliefs, teachings, and actions the spirit of Christ, living by those ideals. And the “Antichrist” means “the opposite of Christ.” Therefore, if you embody a spirit opposite that of Christ’s—if your beliefs, teachings and actions conform to that spirit instead, if you live by that spirit’s ideals, the ideals opposite those of Christ—then you are embodying the Antichrist. You are thus following the Antichrist. So whenever you think you are worshiping Jesus Christ as the one who endorses those values, values actually the opposite of Christ’s, you are actually worshipping the Antichrist. It is then the Antichrist that you have embraced with your soul and let govern your heart. You are thus in league with the Antichrist. You are agents of the Antichrist. You are the cogs creating his world. Because you are then realizing the Antichrist’s dreams and ideals—not Christ’s.

You might want to rethink that.

---

--Carrier (27 November 2022). "Dear Christian: You Might Be Worshiping the Antichrist". Richard Carrier Blogs.

 

[dbz]

Where are you going? What's your game, man? Food for worms? Dunno? Don't care?

Please share.

Adventure Time - Food Chain Song

Episode 07 Season 06Lyrics:Finn: Round and round as the nature flowsIt's like one big ringCaterpillars eat plantsSmall birds eat caterpillarsBig birds eat sm...

www.youtube.com

 

[dbz]

This thread has been moved from Religion vs. Science forum to General Religion forum due to lack of science.

[Christianity] has slowly, painfully come around to sort-of accepting (or at least occasionally tolerating) sounder principles of reasoning over the last two thousand years, it really only gives them lip service. It doesn’t actually preach or teach any sound methodology. This is most obvious, of course, among the still-robust anti-intellectualist versions of conservative Christianity today, where even “going to college” is condemned. And even conservative Christians have noticed this about themselves—though they never voice a correct antidote to it (see the worried hand-wringing of Alan Jacobs, Rick Nañez, Brian Chilton, Michael Austin, Mark Ward, and many others). But even liberal-minded, progressive Christians like Justin Brierley are still echoing ancient anti-empirical sentiments. Of course the reason the “response” to this observed defect in Christianity is still never to promote actually reliable methods is that that erodes faith—for reasons only obvious to atheists. Reliable methods + correct information + time = atheism.

That this is fundamental to Christianity is proved by how it infects even its liberals. As I just noted, even Justin Brierley “lets his Bible tell him to consider as ‘blessed’ those who choose to believe things without evidence,” explicitly citing John 20:2, thus demonstrating that the ancient Christian Bible’s anti-intellectualism is corrupting the minds even of its most liberal of devotees. And that’s a problem. This is why all religion is bad for us. As I wrote before, Brierley’s “religion has literally taught him to praise the rejection of evidence-based reasoning,” which is “dangerous as all hell,” a “disastrously bad effect” of his religion on his mind. And we see this across the whole of modern Christendom. It still preaches hostility to sound inductive logic, and elevates in its place completely unempirical deductive systems of logic instead, the ones most easily corrupted to sell anything as true. And even when Christians pay lip service to sound methods of inductive logic, they completely misuse them, rendering them totally unsound.

And this is yet one more reason why we can be sure Christianity is a false worldview. Its most sacred text, the Bible, the center of its faith, containing what is supposed to be the most important information humanity could ever possess, completely lacks and abandons—and often even condemns—science, critical thinking, and evidence-based reasoning. And after two thousand years, this corruption and degradation of the human mind within that text continues to corrupt and degrade all who revere it, even the most liberal-minded among them. And that is yet one more reason why it is high time for Christianity to go.

---

---

---

• Carrier (1 June 2022). "A Primer on Christian Anti-Intellectualism". Richard Carrier Blogs.

 

[dbz]

Still don't know how 1C figures ...

• Not 1C but 1IC: There is only One Iesus Christos who wept for humanity, I also cry for humanity .. the END is coming!

 

[steve_bank]

Bulklshit?
Taking snakes.
Man serving i a whale.
Blowing down walls of acity with a horn.
Parting the Red Sea.
Walking on water.
Bringing a rotting stinking dead person back to life.
Changing water into wine.
A global flood.

What is likely not entirely bullshit is the fragmented oral Hebrew history put to paper and embellished.

You can treat Proverbs as Hebrew wisdom literature as you can some of the other books books.