Trans activists: Trans women should not be required to suppress testosterone to play on women's teams

[Metaphor]

I have a problem with it and I'm a man.

Are you even interested in sports?

Not really; I'm most interested in fairness.

I have a young niece who plays soccer (football). She isn't anywhere near old enough for it to be serious, but if she is still playing when she becomes high school age, I'd be outraged if transwomen (biological males) started playing on her team or against her team. Elite women's soccer teams routinely lose to 13 and 14 year old boys--the difference between men and women is that stark. Trans activists are pushing for high school sports to be "ID only" - any biological male can play on the girl's team as long as he identifies as a transwoman. No social, legal or medical transition required (not that any of those would make it fair anyway).

I think sports, even though I don't care for them myself, should be encouraged in children, especially given the obesity epidemic in the West. And I think transwomen who insist on playing on women's teams and claim they have no special advantage are fucking deluded and monstrously entitled cunts, and the trans activists who enable them are the co-architects and co-conspirators of this brazen and craven cruelty.

Does that clear it up?

 

[bigfield]

I have a problem with it and I'm a man.

Are you even interested in sports?

Not really; I'm most interested in fairness.

I have a young niece who plays soccer (football). She isn't anywhere near old enough for it to be serious, but if she is still playing when she becomes high school age, I'd be outraged if transwomen (biological males) started playing on her team or against her team. Elite women's soccer teams routinely lose to 13 and 14 year old boys--the difference between men and women is that stark. Trans activists are pushing for high school sports to be "ID only" - any biological male can play on the girl's team as long as he identifies as a transwoman. No social, legal or medical transition required (not that any of those would make it fair anyway).

I think sports, even though I don't care for them myself, should be encouraged in children, especially given the obesity epidemic in the West. And I think transwomen who insist on playing on women's teams and claim they have no special advantage are fucking deluded and monstrously entitled cunts, and the trans activists who enable them are the co-architects and co-conspirators of this brazen and craven cruelty.

Does that clear it up?

Yes it does, and you make a fair point.

 

[ZiprHead]

No one thinks that.

I do think it is very interesting that men have no real problem with transwomen with greater than average testosterone participating in women's sports. They aren't being expected to make room.

I have a problem with it and I'm a man.

[Conservative]No, you're not. Men don't have sex with other men[/Conservative]

 

[Metaphor]

No one thinks that.

I do think it is very interesting that men have no real problem with transwomen with greater than average testosterone participating in women's sports. They aren't being expected to make room.

I have a problem with it and I'm a man.

[Conservative]No, you're not. Men don't have sex with other men[/Conservative]

Um, okay. What would a "conservative" say that I am?

 

[ZiprHead]

[Conservative]No, you're not. Men don't have sex with other men[/Conservative]

Um, okay. What would a "conservative" say that I am?

A faggot, of course.

 

[Toni]

I do think it is very interesting that men have no real problem with transwomen with greater than average testosterone participating in women's sports. They aren't being expected to make room.

I think the word you are looking for is "liberals" or "woke people", not "men". There are men in this very thread who aren't OK with it, and various prominent men who have been excoriated by said activists over it. It's the woke people who have no reservations about it.

No, I'm using men as a general term, not ALL men. We all know that not ALL men were born with a penis, right? Or with two testicles?

And some men are just extremely uncomfortable with trans individuals period. I'm not. I'm not concerned with transwomen as teachers or preschool teachers or in health care or therapists or in women's locker rooms, or dressing rooms at department stores, or women's bathrooms, etc. Not at all.

My only concern is that there are men who have no problem eliminating women's sports altogether. At least in this thread. My perception is that men are for something if it means they don't have to give up something that they value and that at least some men in this thread are not much in favor of transwomen or trans individuals.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

At least in this thread. My perception is that men are for something if it means they don't have to give up something that they value and that at least some men in this thread are not much in favor of transwomen or trans individuals.

I don't think that's what is being proposed. The idea being tossed around is probably more akin to weight classes, only instead of weight, other variables would be considered such as hormone exposure, or (where relevant) bone density, lung capacity etc. In effect, you'd still end up with divisions which are 99% cisgender female and 99% cisgender male.

Whether this approach is practical is another question, I suppose. But I'm pretty sure the core proposal has nothing to do with pushing cisgender women out of sports.

 

[Toni]

At least in this thread. My perception is that men are for something if it means they don't have to give up something that they value and that at least some men in this thread are not much in favor of transwomen or trans individuals.

I don't think that's what is being proposed. The idea being tossed around is probably more akin to weight classes, only instead of weight, other variables would be considered such as hormone exposure, or (where relevant) bone density, lung capacity etc. In effect, you'd still end up with divisions which are 99% cisgender female and 99% cisgender male.

Whether this approach is practical is another question, I suppose. But I'm pretty sure the core proposal has nothing to do with pushing cisgender women out of sports.

I am not that sure at all. At best, it's simply overlooking female desire to compete in sports as women, not as pseudo men. It's a pretty powerful message that is sent when women such as Serena Williams plays tennis at world class level AND gives birth to a child. And still plays tennis competitively. It's pretty powerful to see women soccer players take on the league's pay scale and demand equity. I have never had any ambitions or fantasies about playing sports beyond an occasional pick up game as a kid/teen but even I am moved by this and proud of it. I don't want that message to get lost for today's girls and young women.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

I am not that sure at all. At best, it's simply overlooking female desire to compete in sports as women, not as pseudo men.

Why would they not be competing as women? Does a category literally need the title 'women' for the participants to be women athletes.

It's a pretty powerful message that is sent when women such as Serena Williams plays tennis at world class level AND gives birth to a child. And still plays tennis competitively.

It's not clear why that would change at all in this hypothetical scenario.

It's pretty powerful to see women soccer players take on the league's pay scale and demand equity. I have never had any ambitions or fantasies about playing sports beyond an occasional pick up game as a kid/teen but even I am moved by this and proud of it. I don't want that message to get lost for today's girls and young women.

I don't want that to be taken away from anyone, but it's not like I can relate either.

 

[ruby sparks]

Not really; I'm most interested in fairness.

I have a young niece who plays soccer (football). She isn't anywhere near old enough for it to be serious, but if she is still playing when she becomes high school age, I'd be outraged if transwomen (biological males) started playing on her team or against her team. Elite women's soccer teams routinely lose to 13 and 14 year old boys--the difference between men and women is that stark. Trans activists are pushing for high school sports to be "ID only" - any biological male can play on the girl's team as long as he identifies as a transwoman. No social, legal or medical transition required (not that any of those would make it fair anyway).

I think sports, even though I don't care for them myself, should be encouraged in children, especially given the obesity epidemic in the West. And I think transwomen who insist on playing on women's teams and claim they have no special advantage are fucking deluded and monstrously entitled cunts, and the trans activists who enable them are the co-architects and co-conspirators of this brazen and craven cruelty.

Does that clear it up?

Yes it does, and you make a fair point.

I agree. I think that is a fair point.

 

[ruby sparks]

[Conservative]No, you're not. Men don't have sex with other men[/Conservative]

Um, okay. What would a "conservative" say that I am?

A faggot, of course.

Or a girlyboy. Or a Mary. Or a queen.

 

[Metaphor]

[Conservative]No, you're not. Men don't have sex with other men[/Conservative]

Um, okay. What would a "conservative" say that I am?

A faggot, of course.

I'm confused. Aren't faggots men?

 

[Metaphor]

A faggot, of course.

Or a girlyboy. Or a Mary. Or a queen.

Aren't all those descriptors descriptors of men?

Would a 'conservative' call me any of those things if I were a woman?

 

[ruby sparks]

Or a girlyboy. Or a Mary. Or a queen.

Aren't all those descriptors descriptors of men?

no.

 

[Metaphor]

Or a girlyboy. Or a Mary. Or a queen.

Aren't all those descriptors descriptors of men?

no.

I notice you clipped my second sentence.

"Faggot","girlyboy","Mary","queen" are all applied to men who are or perceived to be homosexual or effeminate. They are terms applied only to men.

A conservative would have to believe me to be a man to call me any of those things.

I don't find conservatives calling me any such thing though, though I notice you personally have said I'm a lesser man for being homosexual.

 

[ZiprHead]

no.

I notice you clipped my second sentence.

"Faggot","girlyboy","Mary","queen" are all applied to men who are or perceived to be homosexual or effeminate. They are terms applied only to men.

A conservative would have to believe me to be a man to call me any of those things.

I don't find conservatives calling me any such thing though, though I notice you personally have said I'm a lesser man for being homosexual.

But it's not man or men.

 

[Metaphor]

no.

I notice you clipped my second sentence.

"Faggot","girlyboy","Mary","queen" are all applied to men who are or perceived to be homosexual or effeminate. They are terms applied only to men.

A conservative would have to believe me to be a man to call me any of those things.

I don't find conservatives calling me any such thing though, though I notice you personally have said I'm a lesser man for being homosexual.

But it's not man or men.

First, that's empirically bollocks. I know conservatives and none of them would call me something other than a man.

Second, it might be the case that conservatives (like my friend ruby sparks) call me a lesser man, or a broken man, or a perverted man, but they nonetheless think I'm a man.

You imagine that conservatives object to two men having sex with each other, and at the same time you imagine conservatives to think neither of these people to actually be men. Then what are they objecting to?

 

[ZiprHead]

But it's not man or men.

First, that's empirically bollocks. I know conservatives and none of them would call me something other than a man.

Second, it might be the case that conservatives (like my friend ruby sparks) call me a lesser man, or a broken man, or a perverted man, but they nonetheless think I'm a man.

You imagine that conservatives object to two men having sex with each other, and at the same time you imagine conservatives to think neither of these people to actually be men. Then what are they objecting to?

But there's plenty of conservatives that would not call you a man. And that's exactly the same thing you are doing to trans people.

 

[Metaphor]

But there's plenty of conservatives that would not call you a man. And that's exactly the same thing you are doing to trans people.

There's a crucial little difference.

If a conservative says I'm not a man, they're wrong, and they mean it as an insult.

When I say transwomen are men, I'm right, and I don't mean it as an insult, because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a man.

 

[Toni]

But there's plenty of conservatives that would not call you a man. And that's exactly the same thing you are doing to trans people.

There's a crucial little difference.

If a conservative says I'm not a man, they're wrong, and they mean it as an insult.

When I say transwomen are men, I'm right, and I don't mean it as an insult, because I don't think there is anything wrong with being a man.

No, you're truly not.

If you were to say that a trans woman was male, you would probably be right in the genetic sense not in the person sense. A man who undergoes castration and has his penis removed is still a man because not only his genetics but his brain is also wired to be a man. For transgendered individuals, there's actually a difference in brain structures that makes male to female trans individuals more similar to women and female to men trans people more male than female. Of course there are intersex individuals and and unknown number of persons who have a different chromosomal array than the usual XY or XX.


But it is interesting that so many of the words that are used to insult male homosexuals are female names: Nancy, Mary (which I had never heard), Queen to imply effeminacy which is silly. Not all gay men are effeminate and not all effeminate men are gay just as not all 'butch' women are gay and not all gay women are 'butch.'