Calling it disgusting doesn't make it disappear.
Dude, you know what else doesn't make it disappear? Pointing out how illogical it is. The reasons women's restrooms aren't equivalent to whites-only restrooms have already been posted six ways to Sunday, but the people making the analogy can never be bothered to address those reasons -- instead they just keep on repeating their stupid canard. Pointing out how illogical the analogy is doesn't make it disappear, but it should.
At least you're addressing the issue.
The problem with this is that trans in bathrooms isn't a new issue--
"Trans"? "Trans" what? Transsexual or transgendered? Transsexual men in women's bathrooms isn't a new issue; transgendered men who aren't transsexuals in women's bathrooms is very much a new issue. It became an issue when activists agreed among themselves that non-ops were entitled by right to all the privileges women collectively had customarily been allowing to pre-ops and post-ops, and then convinced progressives collectively to leapfrog non-op transgendered men above women on the progressive stack, with the unintended consequence of de facto leapfrogging cis-male predators above women too.
You seem to be reading way too deep into 'they didn't want to hide any more.'
Thus this looks very much like discrimination.
"Discrimination"?
Of course it's discrimination! And? It's
sex discrimination.
It is something to watch two sides that are wrong, trying to enhance their side of the argument with labels.
It is not discrimination to allow transgenders into women's bathrooms. Discrimination is an actual word, with actual meaning. Just because something is "wrong" doesn't make it "discrimination". There is no prejudicial treatment here.
Women's rooms are an affirmative action program we males have collectively chosen to impose on ourselves as a way to partly ameliorate some of the effects of thirty million years of collectively taking advantage of our greater physical strength to lord it over females. Sex-based AA-programs in no way are equivalent to a dominant race treating another race as second-class citizens. (And as AA programs go, women's rooms are about the mildest instance imaginable. As Tom says, the men's room is right there.)
So we go from the Loren side of antiseptic moral argument that people that don't do wrong shouldn't have to be excluded to the Jarhyn side that is more laissez faire side of people should be allowed to be where they belong and we flip to the other side who are trying to wedge as much politics, jumbled up history, and denial into the argument they possibly can.
It is all very uncompelling.
Our courts have consistently held racial discrimination to a higher level of scrutiny than sex discrimination because sex is not race and we all bloody well know it.
*Looks around to see if there are any black women in the chatroom to respond to that nonsense*
The reason people make the "It's like whites-only bathrooms" argument is the same as the reason people make the "You're racist against Muslims" argument -- not because it makes any logical sense, but because it's an escalation. They know damn well that most people judge racial discrimination as worse than other forms of discrimination, so they're trying to take advantage of that judgement to gain unearned rhetorical mileage out of guilt-by-association.
They make the argument because it is emotional and they think that if they associate it with transgender access, it'll make their argument stronger. The argument would be wrong, just as all appeals to emotion fallacies are.
Or just like people who are against transgender people in women's spaces because transgender is just a choice and this is all a liberal conspiracy.
We have two sides as part of this argument that don't give a rat's ass or even acknowledge the existence of the other side. And neither of them are right.
Can everyone please knock of the analogies to race here?
But if you must then please be honest here—
Can we just please —especially all of you men here—acknowledge that treating any group of people as less than is simply wrong and immoral. We have a deep, very ugly history of treating persons of color as being sub human, and for some of them, as property who could be bought or sold, beaten as one would an animal and raped as well. Or even killed. Denied their full humanity, their right to self determination, to education, equality.
Echoes of that still ring through our society today. Different levels, different groups, perhaps different levels of severity, all over the world.
Women have also been treated as property who could be bought or sold, beaten, raped, forced to bear children, forced to abort children regardless of their own wants and needs. This is very much still going on in this country and all over the world.
There is only one reason that any girl or woman has to be afraid of a male appearing body in a female only space when any or all parties might be undressed:
Men rape women.
Men sexually abuse women.
Men beat and murder women.
It is impossible to know by looking who is likely to be dangerous and who is probably
safe.
We are sexually and physically and emotionally and economically abused by our fathers, brothers, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, teachers, coaches, doctors, neighbors: all people we should be able to trust. All people we are taught to trust.
The reason so any rape victims and murder are raped and murdered by people they know and trust is those are the people who have access.
They have easy access. To vulnerable victims.
Quit blaming women for being reluctant to give easy access to naked strangers with male appearing bodies who are probably safe, just as for most of us, our fathers and brothers are safe—but not all of them are—but who may not be safe.
Different families have different levels of nudity that are normal in their homes. It is often normal for young children to see their parents in some stage of undress and for parents to change diapers, help dress and bathe young children. This is an accepted context.
All of us would raise eyebrows at any parent still entering a bathroom when their own 12 year old was showering or changing clothes, unless an emergency or disability on the set of the child was involved. No matter how safe the parent was, how healthy, well adjusted, 100% not pedo—we’d all se it as weird.
Much weirder if it were a neighbor. Extremely alarming if it were a stranger. Most of us would be even more alarmed if the stranger were male. Police would likely be called. And if that stranger, male or female, were naked? Definitely serious charges. How many of us would expect our child, 12 or 16 yo to tolerate this and not react with fear and alarm? How many of us would ourselves refrain from physical violence in this situation? Even if there was no actual physical contact on the part of the stranger and our child.
What if it was our sister? Our mother ? Our Aunt? Our cousin? Our grandmother? Or the male versions of these?
Why is it different to be concerned about girls and women in locker rooms? Because they are public? They are public in the sense that any girl or woman ( with a membership) can access them. You know: people who are known to belong there They are absolutely places where a naked male body is unexpected, just as it’s unexpected to see a stranger’s naked male body in your home bathroom with your child, sister, spouse, mother, etc.
These are places where everyone would be alarmed to see someone who might pose a danger to their personal safety.
Yes, women can and sometimes are violent and can and sometimes do rape or otherwise assault other women, children, men. But statistically, men commit almost all sexual assaults and the vast majority of murders.
Why is it ok for all of us to be alarmed at a naked stranger in our homes, particularly in intimate spaces , where they are unexpected, but not ok for women to be alarmed at naked strangers who appear male to be in an intimate space when women are also likely to be in some stage of undress?
Btw, as always, when I wrote woman or girl, I mean cis and trans.
Why are cis women in this thread being castigated for pointing this out, told we are as bad as racists?
I assure you that if I were to appear in your gym locker room, naked, standing next to you as you showered, you’d be quite alarmed. You wouldn’t think yourselves akin to a segregationist, either. You’d wonder what the fuck I was doing there. You might not be afraid I’d assault you but most of you would grab a towel for yourselves and beg for one for me. You’d think I was crazy and possibly dangerous ( we all think crazy people are dangerous, right?) because I had so violated the social norms that separate sexes in intimate areas—private and public. At the very least, there would be some shouting and someone would call the authorities.
Now, could a mod please move these posts about trans people in bathrooms to their own thread and let’s let Roe V Wade have its own thread.
