Transphobia in Miami

[ZiprHead]

What I find funny is how much Halfie cares about whether someone identifies as a gender that matches his narrow expectation of how behavior should pair to genitals.

Like boo fucking hoo.

As long as people who make sperm and people that make eggs make a decent number of babies overall, nobody should really need to care how the people who do so act, as long as they aren't shitty to one another, and raise children who similarly mix some chemicals often enough and treat each other well.

I seriously wonder if they are questioning their own gender choices, as that would explain why they resent trans people so much: they are all in on "bot straight white male" religion-wise, and hate that trans people get to be what he wishes he was.

No, it's quite simple really. I understand that there are people who want to "buck gender norms," but that's all they are doing. They are bucking gender norms. If a man wants to wear a skirt or women want to dress like lumberjacks, that's fine with me.

But, don't go around saying, "I'm actually a woman because I like wearing a skirt" or "I'm a man because I like dressing like a lumberjack." In this case, you wouldn't be bucking gender norms, but instead be conforming to them.

I think they are getting "gender roles/norms" confused with "gender." Gender norms can be changed. You can dress or act however you want. But you are NOT a different gender because of it. That is my point.

It' the equivalent of saying, "I'm a shark because I love to always be swimming," or "I'm actually a cat because I love sleeping all day doing nothing," or "I'm actually a cheetah because I love to run fast."

Why do you care?

 

[Half-Life]

What I find funny is how much Halfie cares about whether someone identifies as a gender that matches his narrow expectation of how behavior should pair to genitals.

Like boo fucking hoo.

As long as people who make sperm and people that make eggs make a decent number of babies overall, nobody should really need to care how the people who do so act, as long as they aren't shitty to one another, and raise children who similarly mix some chemicals often enough and treat each other well.

I seriously wonder if they are questioning their own gender choices, as that would explain why they resent trans people so much: they are all in on "bot straight white male" religion-wise, and hate that trans people get to be what he wishes he was.

No, it's quite simple really. I understand that there are people who want to "buck gender norms," but that's all they are doing. They are bucking gender norms. If a man wants to wear a skirt or women want to dress like lumberjacks, that's fine with me.

But, don't go around saying, "I'm actually a woman because I like wearing a skirt" or "I'm a man because I like dressing like a lumberjack." In this case, you wouldn't be bucking gender norms, but instead be conforming to them.

I think they are getting "gender roles/norms" confused with "gender." Gender norms can be changed. You can dress or act however you want. But you are NOT a different gender because of it. That is my point.

It' the equivalent of saying, "I'm a shark because I love to always be swimming," or "I'm actually a cat because I love sleeping all day doing nothing," or "I'm actually a cheetah because I love to run fast."

Why do you care?

Because words mean things.

Let's try a thought experiment. A man at work says he's a dog and demands a co-worker walks him on a leash outside every 2 hours so he can pee outside.
Should the employer approve of this because after all, "why should he care, right?"

I have a feeling you would admit this employee would have some kind of screw loose and would not allow him to be walked every 2 hours. No matter how many times he screams, "You're disrespecting my identity!!" you will not give into his demands because you know that he's NOT a dog, right?

 

[ZiprHead]

Why do you care?

Because words mean things.

Let's try a thought experiment. A man at work says he's a dog and demands a co-worker walks him on a leash outside every 2 hours so he can pee outside.
Should the employer approve of this because after all, "why should he care, right?"

I have a feeling you would admit this employee would have some kind of screw loose and would not allow him to be walked every 2 hours. No matter how many times he screams, "You're disrespecting my identity!!" you will not give into his demands because you know that he's NOT a dog, right?

Are these people demanding anything of you, other than to leave them alone? No.

So your analogy doesn't work.

 

[Patooka]

"Let's try a thought experiment"
"Let's say"
"What if..."
"How about..."

I can't take anyone seriously if their arguments only work in worlds of fiction.

 

[Half-Life]

Why do you care?

Because words mean things.

Let's try a thought experiment. A man at work says he's a dog and demands a co-worker walks him on a leash outside every 2 hours so he can pee outside.
Should the employer approve of this because after all, "why should he care, right?"

I have a feeling you would admit this employee would have some kind of screw loose and would not allow him to be walked every 2 hours. No matter how many times he screams, "You're disrespecting my identity!!" you will not give into his demands because you know that he's NOT a dog, right?

Are these people demanding anything of you, other than to leave them alone? No.

So your analogy doesn't work.

Just answer it, please.

 

[ZiprHead]

Are these people demanding anything of you, other than to leave them alone? No.

So your analogy doesn't work.

Just answer it, please.

No. Thank you.

 

[Half-Life]

Are these people demanding anything of you, other than to leave them alone? No.

So your analogy doesn't work.

Just answer it, please.

No. Thank you.

Because it proves your position wrong.

 

[ZiprHead]

No. Thank you.

Because it proves your position wrong.

An inapt analogy doesn't prove shit.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Fine, Keith. Not "on a whim."

But the brainbuster question still remains:

If every man on Earth identified as a woman, would you agree that there are 0 men on Earth?

You mean, if every woman on earth was allowed to identify as a woman, don't you?

Keith, if you are born with a penis, you are a male.

or an outlier, right?

If you are born with a vagina, you are a woman. Case closed.

except for the other outliers.

Period. Full stop.

so, you already forgot your admission that there were exceptions.

Whatever you decide to do after that, be it your style of dress, your style of talk, your style of hair, etc does not mean you have become the opposite sex/gender.

The only exception you can make is for a hermaphrodite.

ah. So, NOT period, full stop.
You are confusing and inconsistent.

You're also totally lacking a useful degree in stating these opinions as facts with any bearing on the discussion.

Perhaps they can choose which sex/gender they want to be called. But, other than that, penis=male and vagina=female.

why does it matter to you?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Why do you care?

Because words mean things.

so, scientists, therapists, are wrong because you have a dictionary?

That's a little stupid.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Let's try a thought experiment. A man at work says he's a dog

you mean, a dog at work.... if you want to thought experiment, it needs to be internally consistent, or you're just babbling.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No. Thank you.

Because it proves your position wrong.

Proves WHAT wrong?
Two of us asked why YOU give a shit if a person does or does not have a penis.

That's a question, not a position.

And you 'walk the dog' fantsy requires people accomodate the dog's desires.
If your boss announced tomorrow that they are in transition, to become the opposite sex, what do you have to do differently?

At the same time, what if your boss has been cross dressing in secret for the last twenty years? Tomorrow, they tire of hiding and reveal their true gender. What do you have to do differently now?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

They claim you can change your gender on a whim

Whim?

Who says this? Seriously, whst trans person says they'll be a male today, might be a woman tomorrow?
Anyone besides people who are not trans?

Fine, Keith. Not "on a whim."

But the brainbuster question still remains:

If every man on Earth identified as a woman, would you agree that there are 0 men on Earth?

So you are saying we would become a 100% lesbian planet. And you are against this?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Are these people demanding anything of you, other than to leave them alone? No.

So your analogy doesn't work.

As long as others aren't demanding anything of me, I honestly don't give a damn. I will give you the respect of protecting your right to call yourself whatever you want, because that's basic human decency.

But some of those under the trans label are making cases about how you must use certain pronouns, not that it is polite or impolite but you must, such as the Gamestop freakout. Some of those under the trans label are making cases about how you must provide waxing services, such as Jessica Yaniv. Some of those under the trans label are gaining unfair advantages, such as Fallon Fox.

They are making proactive demands of others, so therefore they are crossing a line. There have to be more people in the trans community other than Blair White willing to stand up to them.

 

[steve_bank]

All's I want to know is if it is contagious. Can I catch trans from somebody?

 

[Keith&Co.]

But some of those under the trans label are making cases about how you must use certain pronouns, not that it is polite or impolite but you must, such as the Gamestop freakout.

and this is a burden to you?

I grew up around doctors. They also insist on their proper title, not Mr. It is important to them, what with the effort to earn them, and no real burden to me.

My boss just got married. She insists on Mrs., now, as well as me learning a much more difficult name . I think it's French/Martian. But, while it is a burden to spell without her naneplate handy, i do accept it as important to her.

My new daughter-in-law, though, did not take my son's name. Eh. I still call tge grand-daughter 'Knockitoff' to save time.

And of course, been in or around the military for 40 years, proper modes of address are more important to some than haircuts or shoes.

So, while i agree about some of the demands you list, i cannot see the big deal about pronouns. If all else fails, don't use pronouns. Use 'you,
their name, title, or gender-neutral terms like 'the fuckwad at table three.'

Or treat it like a nickname. You KNOW he isn't really named Boner, or Booger, or Edgelord Almighty, but it is what he asks to be called.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Do they want to get you fired for that? Do they want to make it mandatory under penalty of law?

Say "please use this pronoun" and I'll be happy to do so. Say "you must or else" and I'm more likely to do otherwise.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Do they want to get you fired for that? Do they want to make it mandatory under penalty of law?

Say "please use this pronoun" and I'll be happy to do so. Say "you must or else" and I'm more likely to do otherwise.

Ah. So, it's not actually a burden on you, you're just the ettiquette police.

And, yes, given the authority, Dr. Neher would have thrown me in the stockade for not using 'doctor' same as he did the private who forgot to salute him in Korea.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Do they want to get you fired for that? Do they want to make it mandatory under penalty of law?

Say "please use this pronoun" and I'll be happy to do so. Say "you must or else" and I'm more likely to do otherwise.

Ah. So, it's not actually a burden on you, you're just the ettiquette police.

It isn't a matter of etiquette when they try to make it mandatory.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Do they want to get you fired for that? Do they want to make it mandatory under penalty of law?

Say "please use this pronoun" and I'll be happy to do so. Say "you must or else" and I'm more likely to do otherwise.

Ah. So, it's not actually a burden on you, you're just the ettiquette police.

It isn't a matter of etiquette when they try to make it mandatory.

Well, yeah, for you it is.
Pretty funny, really.
THEY are adamant about how you address them, YOU are adamant about how they ask you. Both of you standing on your dignity like that.