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Trump Travel Ban Lawful

James Madison

Senior Member
Joined
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Indiana
Basic Beliefs
Christian, some libertarian beliefs
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-965_h315.pdf

I saw this one coming, based on the prior precedent.

"The President has lawfully exercised the broad discretion granted to him under section 1182 to suspend the entry of aliens into United States...By its terms, §1182(f) exudes deference to the President inevery clause. It entrusts to the President the decisions whether and when to suspend entry, whose entry to suspend, for how long, and onwhat conditions. It thus vests the President with “ample power” to impose entry restrictions in addition to those elsewhere enumerated in the INA. Sale, 509 U. S., at 187. The proclamation falls well within this comprehensive delegation. The sole prerequisite set forth in 1182(f) is that the President "find" that the entry of the covered aliens "would be detrimental to the interests of the United States.

The President has undoubtedly fulfilled that requirement here. He first ordered DHS and other agencies to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of every single country’s compliance with the information and risk assessment baseline. He then issued a Proclamation with extensive findings about the deficiencies and their impact. Based on that review, he found that restricting entry of aliens who could not be vetted with adequate information was in the national interest."​

The Court went on to address the religious animus argument against the proclamation and the nationality argument in opposing the proclamation.

In addressing the religious animus argument the Court said:

"It is expressly premised on legitimate purposes and says nothing about religion. The entry restrictions on Muslim-majority nations are limited to countries that were previously designated by Congress or prior administrations as posing national security risks. Moreover, the Proclamation reflects the results of a worldwide review process undertaken by multiple Cabinet officials and their agencies. Plaintiffs challenge the entry suspension based on their perception of its effectiveness and wisdom, but the Court cannot substitute its own assessment for the Executive’s predictive judgments on such matters. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U. S. 1, 33–34.

Three additional features of the entry policy support the Government’s claim of a legitimate national security interest. First, since the President introduced entry restrictions in January 2017, three Muslim-majority countries—Iraq, Sudan, and Chad—have been removed from the list. Second, for those countries still subject to entry restrictions, the Proclamation includes numerous exceptions for various categories of foreign nationals. Finally, the Proclamation createsa waiver program open to all covered foreign nationals seeking entry as immigrants or nonimmigrants. Under these circumstances, the Government has set forth a sufficient national security justification to survive rational basis review."​
 
Wow, that's delusional, but as you say hardly unexpected. The SCOTUS has completely divorced itself from reality in support of extremist ideology.
 
I have that quote I trot out every time this happens. Oh yeah, here it is. "Elections have consequences."



Well that and stolen SC seats.
 

Is this really a laughing matter?

I do not have to explain anything to you man and if you cannot comprehend the fact my LOL was in regards to Underseer's BS, then that's your problem.

I comprehended that completely 100% but apparently you didn't comprehend that I comprehended it.

Let's review what happened here by analogy. Let's suppose you, Underseer, and I are at a funeral. Underseer says something you find to be disagreeable so you laugh out loud and say okay, then it would still not be appropriate to laugh at a funeral.

So I will repeat what I wrote before, "Is this really a laughing matter?" Maybe the issue is that you don't care or care much less than I do and so you wouldn't make an analogy to a funeral. Well, that's your right to have a different set of values. Go for it. But it doesn't mean I don't comprehend your response and it doesn't mean my values are wrong.
 
Yeah, just say "national security" and whatever follows is kosher. Working for the tariffs as well. This shows a particular weakness in a Democracy when all three sides are controlled by the same party.

Meanwhile, SCOTUS rules that Trump's 'temporary' travel ban is legal. People from Chad will not be happy.
 
Yeah, just say "national security" and whatever follows is kosher. Working for the tariffs as well. This shows a particular weakness in a Democracy when all three sides are controlled by the same party.

Meanwhile, SCOTUS rules that Trump's 'temporary' travel ban is legal. People from Chad will not be happy.

That is an excellent point, if we ignore the plethora of decisions by SCOTUS which were contrary to Republican and conservative ideology.
 
Yeah, just say "national security" and whatever follows is kosher. Working for the tariffs as well. This shows a particular weakness in a Democracy when all three sides are controlled by the same party.

Meanwhile, SCOTUS rules that Trump's 'temporary' travel ban is legal. People from Chad will not be happy.
That is an excellent point, if we ignore the plethora of decisions by SCOTUS which were contrary to Republican and conservative ideology.
Corporations are people, electoral bribing is free speech, pieces of paper can find religion, discrimination based on religious ideology is "wrong" *wink*, people posing as doctors have the right to not tell people they aren't doctors while providing medical "advice", gerrymandering hasn't hurt anyone... yeah, the right-wing has been just getting beaten.
 
Yeah, just say "national security" and whatever follows is kosher. Working for the tariffs as well. This shows a particular weakness in a Democracy when all three sides are controlled by the same party.

Meanwhile, SCOTUS rules that Trump's 'temporary' travel ban is legal. People from Chad will not be happy.
That is an excellent point, if we ignore the plethora of decisions by SCOTUS which were contrary to Republican and conservative ideology.
Corporations are people, electoral bribing is free speech, pieces of paper can find religion, discrimination based on religious ideology is "wrong" *wink*, people posing as doctors have the right to not tell people they aren't doctors while providing medical "advice", gerrymandering hasn't hurt anyone... yeah, the right-wing has been just getting beaten.

This has to be a record for the number of factual errors in such a short sentence. There are 4 demonstrably false phrases, well, arguably everything you said is factually inaccurate. How does one live some comfortably in a world detached from reality, as you do?
 
Corporations are people, electoral bribing is free speech, pieces of paper can find religion, discrimination based on religious ideology is "wrong" *wink*, people posing as doctors have the right to not tell people they aren't doctors while providing medical "advice", gerrymandering hasn't hurt anyone... yeah, the right-wing has been just getting beaten.

This has to be a record for the number of factual errors in such a short sentence. There are 4 demonstrably false phrases, well, arguably everything you said is factually inaccurate. How does one live some comfortably in a world detached from reality, as you do?
Yes, feel free to live in your world of legal semantics, I'll choose to live in the world of reality where the alleged bounds you live within don't actually exist.
 
Corporations are people, electoral bribing is free speech, pieces of paper can find religion, discrimination based on religious ideology is "wrong" *wink*, people posing as doctors have the right to not tell people they aren't doctors while providing medical "advice", gerrymandering hasn't hurt anyone... yeah, the right-wing has been just getting beaten.

This has to be a record for the number of factual errors in such a short sentence. There are 4 demonstrably false phrases, well, arguably everything you said is factually inaccurate. How does one live some comfortably in a world detached from reality, as you do?
Yes, feel free to live in your world of legal semantics, I'll choose to live in the world of reality where the alleged bounds you live within don't actually exist.

Your "world of reality" is completely divorced from the facts of those cases you reference, and your representation of those cases, is factually inaccurate. That's the problem, your modus operandi is to base your opinion of these decisions on a version of reality not supported by the facts of the case. You do it over and over again. It's played out bro, time for another faulty way to look at these cases.
 
Yes, feel free to live in your world of legal semantics, I'll choose to live in the world of reality where the alleged bounds you live within don't actually exist.

Your "world of reality" is completely divorced from the facts of those cases you reference, and your representation of those cases, is factually inaccurate.
Yeah, money hasn't flooded into elections like we've never seen before, corporations haven't been allowed to 'find religion', SCOTUS didn't send a case back to Washington courts over tolerating religious sourced discrimination *wink*, gerrymandering wasn't kicked back because those petitioning weren't harmed, and having non-licensed people providing medical advice needing to tell people they aren't licensed or nurses or doctors wasn't found to be against Free Speech.
That's the problem, your modus operandi is to base your opinion of these decisions on a version of reality not supported by the facts of the case.
Yes, you keep saying that. You also keep saying how glorious and infaliable a decision is, when only five justices could sign off on it while the other four are wondering "Really?"
 
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-965_h315.pdf

I saw this one coming, based on the prior precedent.

"The President has lawfully exercised the broad discretion granted to him under section 1182 to suspend the entry of aliens into United States...By its terms, §1182(f) exudes deference to the President inevery clause. It entrusts to the President the decisions whether and when to suspend entry, whose entry to suspend, for how long, and onwhat conditions. It thus vests the President with “ample power” to impose entry restrictions in addition to those elsewhere enumerated in the INA. Sale, 509 U. S., at 187. The proclamation falls well within this comprehensive delegation. The sole prerequisite set forth in 1182(f) is that the President "find" that the entry of the covered aliens "would be detrimental to the interests of the United States.

The President has undoubtedly fulfilled that requirement here. He first ordered DHS and other agencies to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of every single country’s compliance with the information and risk assessment baseline. He then issued a Proclamation with extensive findings about the deficiencies and their impact. Based on that review, he found that restricting entry of aliens who could not be vetted with adequate information was in the national interest."​

The Court went on to address the religious animus argument against the proclamation and the nationality argument in opposing the proclamation.

In addressing the religious animus argument the Court said:

"It is expressly premised on legitimate purposes and says nothing about religion. The entry restrictions on Muslim-majority nations are limited to countries that were previously designated by Congress or prior administrations as posing national security risks. Moreover, the Proclamation reflects the results of a worldwide review process undertaken by multiple Cabinet officials and their agencies. Plaintiffs challenge the entry suspension based on their perception of its effectiveness and wisdom, but the Court cannot substitute its own assessment for the Executive’s predictive judgments on such matters. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U. S. 1, 33–34.

Three additional features of the entry policy support the Government’s claim of a legitimate national security interest. First, since the President introduced entry restrictions in January 2017, three Muslim-majority countries—Iraq, Sudan, and Chad—have been removed from the list. Second, for those countries still subject to entry restrictions, the Proclamation includes numerous exceptions for various categories of foreign nationals. Finally, the Proclamation createsa waiver program open to all covered foreign nationals seeking entry as immigrants or nonimmigrants. Under these circumstances, the Government has set forth a sufficient national security justification to survive rational basis review."​

I looked at the document and don't have time for a review. I do note the following:
Breyer and Kagan share a dissenting argument
Sotomayor and Ginsburg share a second dissenting argument.

That makes this a 5-4 ruling. Since the GOP installed a phony justice in the Supreme Court who doesn't count and the real Justice Obama nominated likely would have ruled against this, the real count is 4-5 which would have made it unlawful.

Celebrating authoritarian takeovers of the government isn't something to be proud of.
 
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-965_h315.pdf

I saw this one coming, based on the prior precedent.

"The President has lawfully exercised the broad discretion granted to him under section 1182 to suspend the entry of aliens into United States...By its terms, §1182(f) exudes deference to the President inevery clause. It entrusts to the President the decisions whether and when to suspend entry, whose entry to suspend, for how long, and onwhat conditions. It thus vests the President with “ample power” to impose entry restrictions in addition to those elsewhere enumerated in the INA. Sale, 509 U. S., at 187. The proclamation falls well within this comprehensive delegation. The sole prerequisite set forth in 1182(f) is that the President "find" that the entry of the covered aliens "would be detrimental to the interests of the United States.

The President has undoubtedly fulfilled that requirement here. He first ordered DHS and other agencies to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of every single country’s compliance with the information and risk assessment baseline. He then issued a Proclamation with extensive findings about the deficiencies and their impact. Based on that review, he found that restricting entry of aliens who could not be vetted with adequate information was in the national interest."​

The Court went on to address the religious animus argument against the proclamation and the nationality argument in opposing the proclamation.

In addressing the religious animus argument the Court said:

"It is expressly premised on legitimate purposes and says nothing about religion. The entry restrictions on Muslim-majority nations are limited to countries that were previously designated by Congress or prior administrations as posing national security risks. Moreover, the Proclamation reflects the results of a worldwide review process undertaken by multiple Cabinet officials and their agencies. Plaintiffs challenge the entry suspension based on their perception of its effectiveness and wisdom, but the Court cannot substitute its own assessment for the Executive’s predictive judgments on such matters. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U. S. 1, 33–34.

Three additional features of the entry policy support the Government’s claim of a legitimate national security interest. First, since the President introduced entry restrictions in January 2017, three Muslim-majority countries—Iraq, Sudan, and Chad—have been removed from the list. Second, for those countries still subject to entry restrictions, the Proclamation includes numerous exceptions for various categories of foreign nationals. Finally, the Proclamation createsa waiver program open to all covered foreign nationals seeking entry as immigrants or nonimmigrants. Under these circumstances, the Government has set forth a sufficient national security justification to survive rational basis review."​

I looked at the document and don't have time for a review. I do note the following:
Breyer and Kagan share a dissenting argument
Sotomayor and Ginsburg share a second dissenting argument.

That makes this a 5-4 ruling. Since the GOP installed a phony justice in the Supreme Court who doesn't count and the real Justice Obama nominated likely would have ruled against this, the real count is 4-5 which would have made it unlawful.

Celebrating authoritarian takeovers of the government isn't something to be proud of.

Ah, the Pythia in the temple approach, as you inform us of how another person, had they been a justice would’ve likely voted.

Oh, and it’s tragic to learn Justice Gorsuch is a phony, dressed in a way too early Halloween costume of a Supreme Court Justice, whose vote doesn’t count. Maybe you should write him and advise him and the other 8 justices they have an imposter among them.

And the word “authoritarian” is inapplicable here.


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Yeah, money hasn't flooded into elections like we've never seen before, corporations haven't been allowed to 'find religion', SCOTUS didn't send a case back to Washington courts over tolerating religious sourced discrimination *wink*, gerrymandering wasn't kicked back because those petitioning weren't harmed, and having non-licensed people providing medical advice needing to tell people they aren't licensed or nurses or doctors wasn't found to be against Free Speech.
That's the problem, your modus operandi is to base your opinion of these decisions on a version of reality not supported by the facts of the case.
Yes, you keep saying that. You also keep saying how glorious and infaliable a decision is, when only five justices could sign off on it while the other four are wondering "Really?"

No, I haven’t praised the opinion as “glorious” or “infallible.” And the number of dissenters doesn’t reflect how “glorious” or “infallible” a decision is or could be, and reducing that determination to a popularity contest is misplaced.

But I like your laundry line approach, hang out all the decisions you personally dislike, misrepresent them, while discussing a specific case you also dislike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-965_h315.pdf

I saw this one coming, based on the prior precedent.

"The President has lawfully exercised the broad discretion granted to him under section 1182 to suspend the entry of aliens into United States...By its terms, §1182(f) exudes deference to the President inevery clause. It entrusts to the President the decisions whether and when to suspend entry, whose entry to suspend, for how long, and onwhat conditions. It thus vests the President with “ample power” to impose entry restrictions in addition to those elsewhere enumerated in the INA. Sale, 509 U. S., at 187. The proclamation falls well within this comprehensive delegation. The sole prerequisite set forth in 1182(f) is that the President "find" that the entry of the covered aliens "would be detrimental to the interests of the United States.

The President has undoubtedly fulfilled that requirement here. He first ordered DHS and other agencies to conduct a comprehensive evaluation of every single country’s compliance with the information and risk assessment baseline. He then issued a Proclamation with extensive findings about the deficiencies and their impact. Based on that review, he found that restricting entry of aliens who could not be vetted with adequate information was in the national interest."​

The Court went on to address the religious animus argument against the proclamation and the nationality argument in opposing the proclamation.

In addressing the religious animus argument the Court said:

"It is expressly premised on legitimate purposes and says nothing about religion. The entry restrictions on Muslim-majority nations are limited to countries that were previously designated by Congress or prior administrations as posing national security risks. Moreover, the Proclamation reflects the results of a worldwide review process undertaken by multiple Cabinet officials and their agencies. Plaintiffs challenge the entry suspension based on their perception of its effectiveness and wisdom, but the Court cannot substitute its own assessment for the Executive’s predictive judgments on such matters. See Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, 561 U. S. 1, 33–34.

Three additional features of the entry policy support the Government’s claim of a legitimate national security interest. First, since the President introduced entry restrictions in January 2017, three Muslim-majority countries—Iraq, Sudan, and Chad—have been removed from the list. Second, for those countries still subject to entry restrictions, the Proclamation includes numerous exceptions for various categories of foreign nationals. Finally, the Proclamation createsa waiver program open to all covered foreign nationals seeking entry as immigrants or nonimmigrants. Under these circumstances, the Government has set forth a sufficient national security justification to survive rational basis review."​

I looked at the document and don't have time for a review. I do note the following:
Breyer and Kagan share a dissenting argument
Sotomayor and Ginsburg share a second dissenting argument.

That makes this a 5-4 ruling. Since the GOP installed a phony justice in the Supreme Court who doesn't count and the real Justice Obama nominated likely would have ruled against this, the real count is 4-5 which would have made it unlawful.

Celebrating authoritarian takeovers of the government isn't something to be proud of.

Ah, the Pythia in the temple approach, as you inform us of how another person, had they been a justice would’ve likely voted.

Oh, and it’s tragic to learn Justice Gorsuch is a phony, dressed in a way too early Halloween costume of a Supreme Court Justice, whose vote doesn’t count. Maybe you should write him and advise him and the other 8 justices they have an imposter among them.

And the word “authoritarian” is inapplicable here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Says you. I mean, essentially that's what your argument comes down to. I say he's invalid and you say no he's not. However, it's quite clear to a rational observer that Republicans deliberately shirked their duties in a partisan way so as to later obtain a justice that would be a Republican.
 
The crazy thing is that this really puts into question as to how strong a piece of paper can be. Up to now, in general, we've done alright. We've had Presidents go into the extra-Constitutional like Adams, Jackson, Nixon, but as a whole, once a new President is in, things somewhat reset and all is generally well.

But there has been an alignment in DC thanks to some crazy propaganda in 2009/2010 to get massive majorities into state houses and gerrymandered the House. Then the Supreme Court itself was gerrymandered by McConnell and the Republicans in the Senate. And we have an unstable person as our President, of whom, few seem to be standing up to. Then we have our institutional brown shirts like below who are quite happy at crafting acceptable "Constitutional" solutions to problems.

In general, the President has been provided with a large swath of power. This was done, not in the bubble the GOP wants it to be. It was done with three branches being crafted and an Electoral College in place to make certain that:

1) People did lose their minds and elect an unstable person as President
2) There was a balance on the powers

Right now, that balance has been severely eroded. The electoral college didn't do its job. And the Congress isn't doing theirs. They aren't even interjecting with reckless tariff policies that they are absolutely against. SCOTUS has continued its track to the far right, only occasionally seeing the forest (see iPhone warrant case).

Funny thing, when the Democrats get a concentrated power distribution, the nation sees Social Security, Medicare, and ACA. The Republicans get one, absurd deficit spending, reckless regulation (none), war, and now we have seen the unthinkable.

The President was given room to work with, but only under the case that the President would be checked. Even SCOTUS is putting blinders on. Maybe that is why they don't notice he is naked.
Yeah, money hasn't flooded into elections like we've never seen before, corporations haven't been allowed to 'find religion', SCOTUS didn't send a case back to Washington courts over tolerating religious sourced discrimination *wink*, gerrymandering wasn't kicked back because those petitioning weren't harmed, and having non-licensed people providing medical advice needing to tell people they aren't licensed or nurses or doctors wasn't found to be against Free Speech.
That's the problem, your modus operandi is to base your opinion of these decisions on a version of reality not supported by the facts of the case.
Yes, you keep saying that. You also keep saying how glorious and infaliable a decision is, when only five justices could sign off on it while the other four are wondering "Really?"

No, I haven’t praised the opinion as “glorious” or “infallible.” And the number of dissenters doesn’t reflect how “glorious” or “infallible” a decision is or could be, and reducing that determination to a popularity contest is misplaced.

But I like your laundry line approach, hang out all the decisions you personally dislike, misrepresent them, while discussing a specific case you also dislike.
You mean listing off the notable cases in the past 10 years that resulted in absurd rulings and the consequences of them?
 
SCOTUS said:
As the record shows, some of the commissioners at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust. No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case.

SCOTUS said:
Plaintiffs argue that this President’s words strike at fundamental standards of respect and tolerance, in violation of our constitutional tradition. But the issue before us is not whether to denounce the statements. It is instead the significance of those statements in reviewing a Presidential directive, neutral on its face, addressing a matter within the core of executive responsibility. In doing so, we must consider not only the statements of a particular President, but also the authority of the Presidency itself.

A little apples to oranges, but generalized, it does speak to massive hypocrisy here of the SCOTUS Taliban. In cake case, the record matters. In ban case, it doesn't.

Kennedy's asterisk to the ruling is interesting. Almost looks like a historical hedge.
Kennedy - Concurring said:
In all events, it is appropriate to make this further observation. There are numerous instances in which the statements and actions of Government officials are not subject to judicial scrutiny or intervention. That does not mean those officials are free to disregard the Constitution and the rights it proclaims and protects. The oath that all officials take to adhere to the Constitution is not confined to those spheres in which the Judiciary can correct or even comment upon what those officials say or do. Indeed, the very fact that an official may have broad discretion, discretion free from judicial scrutiny, makes it all the more imperative for him or her to adhere to the Constitution and to its meaning and its promise.

The First Amendment prohibits the establishment of religion and promises the free exercise of religion. From these safeguards, and from the guarantee of freedom of speech, it follows there is freedom of belief and expression. It is an urgent necessity that officials adhere to these constitutional guarantees and mandates in all their actions, even in the sphere of foreign affairs. An anxious world must know that our Government remains committed always to the liberties the Constitution seeks to preserve and protect, so that freedom extends outward, and lasts.
Some what begs why this needs to be a in decision to begin with. Roberts' ruling pretty much states that they are Tommy'ing the Constitutional Review of case. Then Kennedy says, FYI, you shouldn't violate the Constitution. Almost like when a parent says to a child creeping up to the cookie jar, "I wouldn't do that if I were you."
 
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