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Trump's economy -- horrible

Sure. But the fact that 13% of the budget is interest payments - same as Medicare and Defense - shows that we can't afford to have sky-high deficits indefinitely.
No matter what AOC and other MMT (modern monetary theory aka magic money tree) disciples keep preaching.
Okay, take out the line item veto, Derec. What gets cut?
I was agreeing with you about the budget being difficult to cut without draconian measures. So take the W.

But the first rule of being in a hole is to stop digging. Dems have proposed huge spending packages such as the $3.5T B3. If Kamala gets the Congress she will no doubt try to pass a version of it - an even bigger one probably, given that she is now proposing an even more generous child tax credit than even Biden did.
 
But note that when the Republicans are in power they run up the deficit.
Deficits under Biden have been higher than Trump. They would be even higher had Manchin and Sinema not stopped the $3.5T Spendapalooza.

Sure, now old-school New Dems of the 90s such as Bill Clinton were fiscally responsible. But this is the party of Bernie and AOC now, even if Old Man Biden was the figurehead. And I do not think Kamala is averse to profligate spending either - see her proposal on child tax credits that are even more generous than the ones Biden wanted to pass in his Spendapalooza.
 
Sure. But the fact that 13% of the budget is interest payments - same as Medicare and Defense - shows that we can't afford to have sky-high deficits indefinitely.
No matter what AOC and other MMT (modern monetary theory aka magic money tree) disciples keep preaching.
Okay, take out the line item veto, Derec. What gets cut?
I was agreeing with you about the budget being difficult to cut without draconian measures. So take the W.
Wasn't seeing the agreeing. I'll take the W. I needed that or another M to finish a table.
But the first rule of being in a hole is to stop digging. Dems have proposed huge spending packages such as the $3.5T B3.
As an engineer, I can safely say we are trillions behind in spending for infrastructure. There is so much. Additionally a Nuclear power build out is needed as well. Granted, it'll be in vain, but shouldn't we at least try? The problem America has is it is stuck in Reaganomics and the past. Is the government spending too much? Probably not spending enough. The Boomers are draining the budget at the moment. It is too bad we were never able to actually address that in Congress. But the GOP want FICA to die. So, they are letting it. I
If Kamala gets the Congress she will no doubt try to pass a version of it - an even bigger one probably,
I'd love for Walz to preside over the Senate, but I'm doubtful Osborn is going to pull a miracle in Nebraska. And even if he does, he'll probably be another Manchin and there will be brake pumping.
given that she is now proposing an even more generous child tax credit than even Biden did.
I'm not losing sleep over a child tax credit.
 
While I don't think much of Tesla, just starting a new car company and having it survive is a feat in itself, never mind causing such disruption in the industry.
Indeed. One great thing that Tesla accomplished is to make EVs viable, even cool.
Before Tesla, EVs have been cars like GM's EV1 (only made to comply with CA's fleet emissions standards) and glorified golf carts like the G-Wiz.

Musk screwed the pooch with overly ambitious autonomous mode (that caused several high profile accidents) and the misconceived Cybertruck.
 
Curent budget spending?
22% Social Security
14% Health
13% Net Interest
13% Medicare
13% National Defense

75% of the budget above is not exactly easy to cut without some draconian measures.
Sure. But the fact that 13% of the budget is interest payments - same as Medicare and Defense - shows that we can't afford to have sky-high deficits indefinitely.
No matter what AOC and other MMT (modern monetary theory aka magic money tree) disciples keep preaching.
Thank the Republicans. They spend like drunken sailors in the Subic Bay red light district then complain about Budget deficits and debt when Democrats are in charge. Your buddy Trump left the largest increase in Debt in US history.
I'll have you know in 1989, a fella could get drunk, a nice girl, a clean room, and breakfast for two (being the gentleman I am) all for about $50. Pretty damn savvy if you ask me.
I would suggest you choose your examples wisely sir.
 
Wasn't seeing the agreeing. I'll take the W. I needed that or another M to finish a table.
It was in the "sure". Don't quite get the table joke. What kind of table are you making?

As an engineer, I can safely say we are trillions behind in spending for infrastructure. There is so much. Additionally a Nuclear power build out is needed as well.
I agree about the infrastructure. That's why I do not fault him about the bipartisan infrastructure bill. That was needed. But after all the COVID spending (which could and should have ended sooner) and the infrastructure bill, Dems wanted to spend $3.5T more on non-infrastructure spending such as higher child tax credits, free childcare and tax cuts for the blue state rich. That was too much in addition to all the spending already made and inflation already increasing.
Granted, it'll be in vain, but shouldn't we at least try? The problem America has is it is stuck in Reaganomics and the past. Is the government spending too much? Probably not spending enough.
We are definitely spending too much overall. Deficits are high, and interest payments are 13% of the total budget. That is not sustainable.
The Boomers are draining the budget at the moment.
And there is no obvious solution to the entitlements problem. We can tinker on the edges, like increasing the retirement age, but that won't be popular.
It is too bad we were never able to actually address that in Congress. But the GOP want FICA to die. So, they are letting it.
I think Friends is overrated, but I always liked this one.
fica-friends.gif

I'd love for Walz to preside over the Senate, but I'm doubtful Osborn is going to pull a miracle in Nebraska. And even if he does, he'll probably be another Manchin and there will be brake pumping.
Hopefully.
I'm not losing sleep over a child tax credit.
It's part of the problem though.
 
I'll have you know in 1989, a fella could get drunk, a nice girl, a clean room, and breakfast for two (being the gentleman I am) all for about $50. Pretty damn savvy if you ask me.
I would suggest you choose your examples wisely sir.
What is the cost now? And what's a good time of year to visit?
 
Contracts. Commercial and governmental. NASA couldn't hope to achieve what SpaceX has in such a span of time and at such a cost. 148 launches expected for 2024.
While I don't think much of Tesla, just starting a new car company and having it survive is a feat in itself, never mind causing such disruption in the industry.
Starlink now generates more revenue than rocket launches, has turned profitable and is expected to be a main source of Starship funding.

The guy's a dick but give him his due.
Agreed. He first started Zip2. Sold it to Compact computer for 307 million. I hate his politics. But greatly respect self made successful people.
Self-made? A bit easier when coming from big money.

He has done well, and he seemed to at least been more positive in moving things forward for a few companies, but it sounds like he is one of the worst people on the planet to work for and he is definitely seeming to change as a person as well. He is too untouchable at this point. The way he fucks around with Tesla, over promising, under delivering and treating more like a tech company that lives off of hype than product development. He did help Tesla grow from niche to more widely adopted, but he lost the farm and is trying change the world with new technologies that already exist (automated driving, robots) and SpaceX is wasting money with his Mars plans when inhabiting, at best, is decades away, but wants to sell it as in the next five years (actually shouldn't we already have gotten there according to earlier promises?).
What do you mean he came from big money? He had middle class parents. Had to pay his own way through college. He had 100,000 in student loan debt. Nothing like Trump! Trump inherited 413 million dollars!
 
Contracts. Commercial and governmental. NASA couldn't hope to achieve what SpaceX has in such a span of time and at such a cost. 148 launches expected for 2024.
While I don't think much of Tesla, just starting a new car company and having it survive is a feat in itself, never mind causing such disruption in the industry.
Starlink now generates more revenue than rocket launches, has turned profitable and is expected to be a main source of Starship funding.

The guy's a dick but give him his due.
Agreed. He first started Zip2. Sold it to Compact computer for 307 million. I hate his politics. But greatly respect self made successful people.
Self-made? A bit easier when coming from big money.
^ This.

I have very little respect for anyone gullible enough to believe in self-made billionaires.

Are there any billionaires who started out genuinely poor, and never inherited a large sum of money, or any kind of real estate?

Musk's feat of becoming a self-made billionaire having started out with nothing more than an emerald mine, is about as impressive as a conjuror pulling a rabbit out of a hat that already has a rabbit in it.
 
Are there any billionaires who started out genuinely poor, and never inherited a large sum of money, or any kind of real estate?
Oprah Winfrey.
Tom

ETA ~ I've said before. I'd love to see Oprah run for president. She's got it going on!~
 
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ETA ~ I've said before. I'd love to see Oprah run for president. She's got it going on!~
She is a snake oil saleswoman who hosted a crappy talk show. No thanks!
As opposed to Trump?

She had the smarts and savvy to rise above her Very humble beginnings and become a self made billionaire.
So what if her TV show was crap. So was The Apprentice. Which was Trump's only successful endeavor.

What has Trump ever done better than Oprah? He managed to drag a casino into bankruptcy!
Tom

ETA ~ Unfortunately for America, Oprah and Michelle Obama have something in common. They're too smart to stick their hand into the blender of the current political situation.~
 
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Indeed. One great thing that Tesla accomplished is to make EVs viable, even cool.
Before Tesla, EVs have been cars like GM's EV1 (only made to comply with CA's fleet emissions standards) and glorified golf carts like the G-Wiz.
GM's EV1 was the inspiration for the Tesla. The Tesla founders said exactly that. It showed that electric cars could be a viable mode of transportation. And i'm still seeing Chevy Volts on the roads.
 
As opposed to Trump?
Is he supposed to be some kind of measuring stick for president? Should he not be a cautionary example instead?
She had the smarts and savvy to rise above her Very humble beginnings and become a self made billionaire.
True. She is very good at what she does. So are successful televangelists. Does not mean I have to respect their racket or think that they would make good presidents.
So what if her TV show was crap. So was The Apprentice. Which was Trump's only successful endeavor.
Again with Trump. Very few people on this forum see Trump as a mold that future presidential candidates should fit.
 
Very few people on this forum see Trump as a mold that future presidential candidates should fit.
This forum is nothing like a representative sample of Americans.

All too many American people think that Trump is the ideal. That's why he's not just in the running, but all too likely to take back the power.
Tom
 
GM's EV1 was the inspiration for the Tesla. The Tesla founders said exactly that. It showed that electric cars could be a viable mode of transportation.
Depending on your definition of "viable", EVs could be a viable mode of transportation for a century.

Does not change the fact that GM only made EV1 to comply with California regs or that the first EV1s used lead acid batteries.

And i'm still seeing Chevy Volts on the roads.
Yes, those weren't bad. They were also made after Tesla changed the image of electric cars.
 
While I don't think much of Tesla, just starting a new car company and having it survive is a feat in itself, never mind causing such disruption in the industry.


The guy's a dick but give him his due.
"The company was incorporated as Tesla Motors, Inc. on July 1, 2003, by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning".[1]

Basically, he gave the company a lot of money, then joined the board and pushed out the original founder.
And the next 21 years? It's not like Musk just came in and put his feet up on the desk while the company ran itself. Being a great engineer is not a business plan. Investors need a business plan. Considering what Tesla set out to accomplish, a damn good business plan if they were to keep the venture capital spigot open.

Looking at Eberhard's and Tarpenning's Wikipedia page, they appear to be doing today what they did in the early days of Tesla, create and consult but not run a business. Good on them for seeing that an electric car did not have to look like a Prius. Now the hard part, bring your great idea to market.

And if we assume the best and the brightest in the STEM fields get to write their own ticket, working at Tesla and SpaceX must not be all that bad.
 
GM's EV1 was the inspiration for the Tesla. The Tesla founders said exactly that. It showed that electric cars could be a viable mode of transportation.
Depending on your definition of "viable", EVs could be a viable mode of transportation for a century.

Does not change the fact that GM only made EV1 to comply with California regs or that the first EV1s used lead acid batteries.

Did that vehicle make electric vehicles ubiquitous? No. So spare us the bullshit.

And i'm still seeing Chevy Volts on the roads.
Yes, those weren't bad. They were also made after Tesla changed the image of electric cars.
They weare also more successful than Tesla cars of the era.
 
Did that vehicle make electric vehicles ubiquitous? No. So spare us the bullshit.
Neither did EV1. Also, had plentiful deposits of oil had not been discovered, EVs would probably have become ubiquitous in the first half of the 20s century. Gasoline and diesel are very practical liquid fuels with high energy density, and they were made cheaply by refining plentiful crude oil deposits. Hard to compete with that.

But as I said, it was after the original roadster was introduced that the greater public started viewing EVs as anything but a joke.
2008_tesla_roadster_convertible_base_fq_oem_4_1600.jpg

That the founders of Tesla saw it as an inspiration does not change my point that Tesla changed the perception of EVs among the general public.
They weare also more successful than Tesla cars of the era.
They served different market segments. Volt is a plug-in hybrid versus full BEVs that Tesla has always been selling.
 
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This forum is nothing like a representative sample of Americans.
No, it isn't. But you are trying to 'sell' Oprah as a viable Democratic presidential candidate. And your retort to criticism of her is "Trump is no different". That might work for an audience that does not intensely dislike Trump.
All too many American people think that Trump is the ideal. That's why he's not just in the running, but all too likely to take back the power.
They tend to be Republicans. I do not think Democrats, even those outside this forum, are clamoring for a Trumpian candidate for 2028 (should Kamala lose) or 2032 (should Kamala win).
 
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