Trying to decide how to respond to Bernie Sanders' fundraising e-mail

[untermensche]

Doesn't follow in any kind of logic.

Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

Bernie is where the party should be and was in it's best days.

Regardless, Bernie is not where the Democratic party is. And he has consistently identified himself outside of the Democratic Party. Either he was incredibly arrogant and/or naive to believe his candidacy would shift the Democratic Party significantly closer to his ideals and goals.

If he runs as an independent, he must surely realize that he will draw more potential voters away from Clinton and than Trump.

Calling him ignorant and naive because he wants to return the party his ideals were formed in to it's rightful place is not how you get any Bernie supporter to listen to you.

Are you capable of forming a logical argument?

 

[Ford]

Then Bernie should have run - as he has since day one - as an independent. Or he could have run as a third party candidate under another banner, or (like Ross Perot) formed his own party that existed to promote his principles. If he really put principle before party, then he wouldn't run on the ticket of a party that does not share his principles.

Doesn't follow in any kind of logic.

It follows the logic of Bernie isn't a Democrat.

Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.

The party he's never been a member of, never registered as, never supported, never led, and up until very recently never ran as a candidate of.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

And then Bernie decided that was a great place to launch his Presidential campaign, so he sold out his "principles" and said "sign me up as a Democrat."

Bernie is where the party should be and was in it's best days.

No, Bernie is an "outsider," remember? A man who puts "principles before party" like you said. But now you want to have it both ways. You've got this fantasy version of what you think the Democratic Party was, and this fantasy that somehow Bernie is on a mission to return the party to its (wholly imagined by you) socialist roots. Bernie is a Democrat when it suits you...much in the same way he's a Democrat when it suits him.


Bernie's embrace of the party he never joined before - again out of naked political expediency - shows that rather than being this saint you've painted him to be, he's a hack who will sell out his vaunted principles if it serves his own needs. He's no FDR. Roosevelt actually accomplished things. Changed this nation in significant and positive ways while also leading us through some of the biggest challenges this nation has ever faced...the Great Depression, the Dust Bowl, and WWII.

Bernie's just been grandstanding for the last 30 years without making a dent in the problems this nation has had to deal with. He's no savior. He's a carnival barker selling populist outrage to the rubes, and you bought a lifetime supply.

 

[J842P]

He's no savior. He's a carnival barker selling populist outrage to the rubes.

Ah yes. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[untermensche]

Doesn't follow in any kind of logic.

It follows the logic of Bernie isn't a Democrat.

Again to Bernie being a Democrat is having certain principles.

But one must value principles and not merely the desire to win with people who will never introduce any principles except wealth gets to make all the rules to understand.

Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.

The party he's never been a member of, never registered as, never supported, never led, and up until very recently never ran as a candidate of.

If only principles were of value to you. You might understand.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

And then Bernie decided that was a great place to launch his Presidential campaign, so he sold out his "principles" and said "sign me up as a Democrat."

How does "I want to bring the Democratic Party back to where it belongs" violate any principles?

Again one must value principles, if even just a little.

Bernie is where the party should be and was in it's best days.

No, Bernie is an "outsider," remember? A man who puts "principles before party" like you said. But now you want to have it both ways. You've got this fantasy version of what you think the Democratic Party was, and this fantasy that somehow Bernie is on a mission to return the party to its (wholly imagined by you) socialist roots. Bernie is a Democrat when it suits you...much in the same way he's a Democrat when it suits him.

Just a hint.

FDR and The New Deal were not a fantasy.

 

[RavenSky]

Then Bernie should have run - as he has since day one - as an independent. Or he could have run as a third party candidate under another banner, or (like Ross Perot) formed his own party that existed to promote his principles. If he really put principle before party, then he wouldn't run on the ticket of a party that does not share his principles.

Doesn't follow in any kind of logic.

Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

Bernie is where the party should be and was in it's best days.

Not the Democratic party of 1832? How about the Democratic party of 1892?

 

[untermensche]

Doesn't follow in any kind of logic.

Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

Bernie is where the party should be and was in it's best days.

Not the Democratic party of 1832? How about the Democratic party of 1892?

Personal preference.

That is the party that appealed to him. Not the sell out party of 1992.

What's wrong with it?

 

[Ford]

It follows the logic of Bernie isn't a Democrat.

Again to Bernie being a Democrat is having certain principles.

Again, Bernie has never been a Democrat. Has never (until now) run as a Democrat, never registered as a Democrat, never self-identified as a Democrat, and has at times stood in opposition to the Democrats. His lifelong stance of remaining outside of the Democratic Party would indicate (and did up until he needed them) that Bernie's principles and the Democratic Party principles could not be reconciled.

But one must value principles and not merely the desire to win with people who will never introduce any principles except wealth gets to make all the rules to understand.

Which again leads me to the fact that Bernie has ditched his principles so that he can win with the people he used to balk at associating with. Principles, my ass.

If only principles were of value to you. You might understand.

If Bernie had stuck to his principles and ran as an independent, that would be admirable. Instead he chucked his principles and got in bed with the DNC. Then when they were less than enthusiastic about his politically expedient and insincere advances, he whined that he was being mistreated. Bernie's the nerd who goes back to the high school reunion all full of himself, hits on the prom queen, and then gets indignant when she won't fuck him.

It is the party that has crawled away on it's knees in search of money from rich individuals.

How does "I want to bring the Democratic Party back to where it belongs" violate any principles?

Again, he's not a Democrat. As such, what he wants to do is not bring them back to some previous version of the party...no, Bernie - drunk on cheap keg beer and armed with the information that the prom queen is unhappy in her marriage - is trying to bring the Democratic Party not to where it belongs, but to where he thinks it should be.

Even though he's never been part of the party, he's decided that not only should he be their nominee, but he should be able to remake the party in his own image.

Is it any wonder the Democrats are not entirely on board with this?

FDR and The New Deal were not a fantasy.

You're right. They were real. And you missed the point. FDR actually accomplished something. The things he did (New Deal included) were actual solutions to actual problems. The fantasy comes in at the point where you imagine that Roosevelt was just a precursor to Sanders, and that Sanders has a snowball's chance in hell of getting any of his pie in the sky proposals passed. Bernie has been in DC for 25 years now and hasn't done shit.


Again, you've been suckered. Apparently one of your most important principles is to blind yourself to the fact that you've been duped.

 

[untermensche]

Again to Bernie being a Democrat is having certain principles.

Again, Bernie has never been a Democrat. Has never (until now) run as a Democrat, never registered as a Democrat, never self-identified as a Democrat, and has at times stood in opposition to the Democrats. His lifelong stance of remaining outside of the Democratic Party would indicate (and did up until he needed them) that Bernie's principles and the Democratic Party principles could not be reconciled.

If being a Democrat is about principles then he has always been a Democrat.

You're a bookkeeper looking for the proper papers.

Not a critic of political leaders.

 

[Ford]

Again, Bernie has never been a Democrat. Has never (until now) run as a Democrat, never registered as a Democrat, never self-identified as a Democrat, and has at times stood in opposition to the Democrats. His lifelong stance of remaining outside of the Democratic Party would indicate (and did up until he needed them) that Bernie's principles and the Democratic Party principles could not be reconciled.

If being a Democrat is about principles then he has always been a Democrat.

You're a bookkeeper looking for the proper papers.

And you're in a deep state of denial.

 

[untermensche]

If being a Democrat is about principles then he has always been a Democrat.

You're a bookkeeper looking for the proper papers.

And you're in a deep state of denial.

About the principles of The New Deal and the best the Democratic Party has given us?

 

[Ford]

And you're in a deep state of denial.

About the principles of The New Deal and the best the Democratic Party has given us?

About the fact that Bernie has never identified as a Democrat.


If the man were really what you think he is, then he would have at the very least said so.

 

[untermensche]

About the principles of The New Deal and the best the Democratic Party has given us?

About the fact that Bernie has never identified as a Democrat.

If the man were really what you think he is, then he would have at the very least said so.

He has never identified with the sell out Democratic Party of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

He has always shared the principles of the Democratic Party of FDR.

 

[Ford]

About the fact that Bernie has never identified as a Democrat.

If the man were really what you think he is, then he would have at the very least said so.

He has never identified with the sell out Democratic Party of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

He has always shared the principles of the Democratic Party of FDR.

Not really, no.

But I tell you what. Since you're being deliberately and pathologically obstinate, I'm going to stop responding to you except with this question:


If Bernie has always been a Democrat, why has he never been a Democrat?


Try me out. Respond to this post. I'll ask the question again. You'll come up with the same old bullshit that he's somehow the reincarnation of FDR, and I won't bother but to copy and paste the same question. That way I'll waste a minimum of effort with you going forward.

 

[Rhea]

Bernie simply places principles before party.
Bernie's principles were formed by the Democratic Party. The party of FDR.
Again to Bernie being a Democrat is having certain principles.
How does "I want to bring the Democratic Party back to where it belongs"
That is the party that appealed to him. Not the sell out party of 1992.

You must be his biographer or something. You seem very comfortable with stating exactly what Bernie thinks. It's quite interesting to read your certainty.

If he runs as an independent, he must surely realize that he will draw more potential voters away from Clinton and than Trump.

We can look to Bernie for the answer to that

Sanders said he thought about running as independent in the first place, but decided not to.

"If we were serious about winning this election, which is always my intention from day one, I thought we could and I hope that we will. I had to do it within the Democratic primary caucus process," he said.

"What I did not want to do is run as a third party candidate, take votes away from the Democratic candidate and help elect some right-wing Republican. I did not want responsibility for that. So what I said at the beginning of the campaign is that I was not going to run as an independent. And I say it now, that if I do not win this process I will not run as an independent."

He knows that he is more closely aligned to Clinton than to Trump.
He knows that the people who would have a choice to make are ones who would be willing to vote for either him or Clinton.

 

[Rhea]

He has never identified with the sell out Democratic Party of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

He has always shared the principles of the Democratic Party of FDR.

And yet, oddly, he waits until now to become a democrat. He didn't join in 1959.
So unexpected for a hearty FDR Democrat.

(I am googling now to find where he writes about his love of the FDR Democratic Party and his dreams of bringing the party back to this.)

 

[laughing dog]

Calling him ignorant and naive because he wants to return the party his ideals were formed in to it's rightful place is not how you get any Bernie supporter to listen to you.

I did not call him ignorant. An intelligent Bernie supporter would be able to read my observation and evaluate it instead of mischaracterizing it. Nor would an intelligent Bernie supporter be upset by the observation.

Are you capable of forming a logical argument?

Yes. I was not making an argument but an observation. Maybe if you spent a little more effort actually reading and thinking before responding, you'd avoid these embarrassing mistakes of yours.

 

[RavenSky]

Not the Democratic party of 1832? How about the Democratic party of 1892?

Personal preference.

That is the party that appealed to him. Not the sell out party of 1992.

What's wrong with it?

The point is that you are not making a good argument for Bernie Sanders using the Democratic Party apparatus.

You are trying to make the claim that the party is one specific thing that Bernie is trying to take it back to, but that is false. The Democratic Party's progressive tilt as ebbed and flowed several times over its long history. Bernie Sanders may like what the Democratic Party was during the New Deal era, but that isn't what the party definitively was since its inception that somehow Bill Clinton single-handedly derailed nearly 50 years after FDR was in office. (What happened to Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Carter in your fantasy scenario, btw?)

Perhaps Bernie Sanders really would like to see the Democratic Party enact legislation more similar to FDR. I can believe that.

What is not believable is your insistence that Bernie Sanders has waited 34 years to join the Democratic Party for that purpose. No, Bernie Sanders joined the Democratic Party after 34 years in public office because he knew that was the only chance in hell he might become President of the United States.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It is not yet time for Bernie to back off Clinton. Bernie needs to push his policies and make himself a problem for Clinton, so that he will be in a powerful position come the convention and come the writing of the platform in the general. It is up to Clinton to bring Bernie supporters in, and she has done very little towards that end, already pivoting towards the right for the general. She has taken Bernie's supporters for granted, and she is now feeling the backlash of that. Politician that she is, Clinton will be calculating where to position herself in the general, how far to the right or left, and Bernie needs to pull as hard as he can on her and make her fear ditching the left and losing Bernie supporters more than she is drawn to the right and gaining Bush supporters.

AFTER the convention, not before it, is the time for Bernie to stop attacking Clinton and to start supporting her. Your American elections are ridiculously long and there will be plenty of time for Hillary and Bernie to stand together. And for now, Bernie needs to do all he can to get himself in position as real power broker so he can get his policies pulling as hard as possible on Hillary. Force Hillary to come out and loudly and publicly support universal health care, banking regulation, etc. Make it politically impossible for her to go back on it, and Bernie can then move on.

 

[RavenSky]

It is not yet time for Bernie to back off Clinton. Bernie needs to push his policies and make himself a problem for Clinton, so that he will be in a powerful position come the convention and come the writing of the platform in the general. It is up to Clinton to bring Bernie supporters in, and she has done very little towards that end, already pivoting towards the right for the general. She has taken Bernie's supporters for granted, and she is now feeling the backlash of that. Politician that she is, Clinton will be calculating where to position herself in the general, how far to the right or left, and Bernie needs to pull as hard as he can on her and make her fear ditching the left and losing Bernie supporters more than she is drawn to the right and gaining Bush supporters.

AFTER the convention, not before it, is the time for Bernie to stop attacking Clinton and to start supporting her. Your American elections are ridiculously long and there will be plenty of time for Hillary and Bernie to stand together. And for now, Bernie needs to do all he can to get himself in position as real power broker so he can get his policies pulling as hard as possible on Hillary. Force Hillary to come out and loudly and publicly support universal health care, banking regulation, etc. Make it politically impossible for her to go back on it, and Bernie can then move on.

There is a huge difference between when Bernie Sanders was pushing his policies, and thereby forcing Hillary Clinton to the left, and what he is doing now which is attacking her on a personal level and attacking the election process itself. If he were still just pushing his policies, Rhea would never have started this thread.