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Turkey shoots down Russian Jet

It is no longer early in the war, and Syria no longer has an Air Force worth worrying about.
It was shot by antiaircraft defense. And Russia does have fighter jets in Syria and I bet they will start escorting these old bombers just to show turkey that borders are protected on the other side too.

Yes, that seems very likely at this point.

Turkey would not have been very concerned about that at the time they shot down the Russian jet, though.
 
Jahed Ahmad of the 10th Brigade in the Coast tells The Associated Press that the two Russian crew members tried to land in their parachutes in government-held areas after they ejected, but came under fire from members of his group.

He adds that rebels shot one of the pilots, who landed dead on the ground on Tuesday.
Firing on para-shooting pilots is a Geneva war crime. And these are the moderate Muslims the US wants to overthrow Assad.

link

I don't see why. If they can shoot at you while you're defenceless against them, it's a bit unkosher to insist that you can't shoot at them while they're defenceless against you. That sounds like a war crime in the same way that jaywalking is a crime.
 
Russian most likely were routinely cutting into that piece of Turkey

I know this is a serious issue, but that made me chuckle with our annual turkey feeding frenzy coming up.

THANK YOU!

I live in the southern US and Thursday is Thanksgiving so every time I see TURKEY SHOOTS, my mind goes to a totally different place.
 
Firing on para-shooting pilots is a Geneva war crime. And these are the moderate Muslims the US wants to overthrow Assad.

link

I don't see why. If they can shoot at you while you're defenceless against them, it's a bit unkosher to insist that you can't shoot at them while they're defenceless against you.
Dang war crimes. I mean. it's ok when we use them on Nazi's but us and our allies shouldn't have to be accountable to them. We're exceptional.
 
I don't see why. If they can shoot at you while you're defenceless against them, it's a bit unkosher to insist that you can't shoot at them while they're defenceless against you.
Dang war crimes. I mean. it's ok when we use them on Nazi's but us and our allies shouldn't have to be accountable to them. We're exceptional.

Well, no. It's the fact of the thing being called a war crime which I have an issue with, not with who's committing the war crime.

I mean if that pilot hits the ground, pulls out his gun and shoots some soldiers coming towards him, is that murder because he's a non-combatant? I don't think so, so it seems that the guy is still in the fight and there aren't any time outs in war ... except for cease fires and the like, of course, but this isn't one of those times.

If the pilot can drop bombs on enemy convoys when they're stopped for lunch, it's not a war crime even though they're taking a time out from soldiering in order to eat. Similarly, a pilot taking a time out because his plane got blown up and he hasn't hit the ground yet is still a soldier in the battlefield.
 
Russian media says they get their sources saying that bunch of NATO countries are not convinced by the evidence Turkey presented.
Apparently they did not warn russian pilots 10 times but only twice and audio was pretty unintelligible.
 
Well, no. It's the fact of the thing being called a war crime which I have an issue with, not with who's committing the war crime.
While you may disagree with the rational that designates shooting at downed pilots is a war crime, that doesn't change that fact that it is a war crime and the US is supporting admitted war criminals.

A pilot in a falling para-shoot has zero combat effectiveness in other words unarmed. Once he lands and gets out of his contraption he could be considered a combatant again since he probably has a pistol. People in a convoy are not unarmed since they could return fire to any attacking aircraft.
 
Well, no. It's the fact of the thing being called a war crime which I have an issue with, not with who's committing the war crime.
While you may disagree with the rational that designates shooting at downed pilots is a war crime, that doesn't change that fact that it is a war crime and the US is supporting admitted war criminals.

A pilot in a falling para-shoot has zero combat effectiveness in other words unarmed. Once he lands and gets out of his contraption he could be considered a combatant again since he probably has a pistol. People in a convoy are not unarmed since they could return fire to any attacking aircraft.

Unarmed people sitting in a convoy who get hit by a missile fired from a ship a hundred miles away which found them because a spy satellite caught sight of them are not victims of war crimes due to their complete inability to fight back. They have zero combat effectiveness and yet it's still OK to kill them. I just think it's dumb for that to be fine but shooting the similarly ineffective pilot is a big thing we need to be concerned about.

He has the ability to enter the combat at a later time and kill your fellow soldiers, so I have no more problem with shooting him in the air than I do with sneaking up on a guy who's taking a shit and cutting his throat. Saying that you're supporting war criminals when that happens is like saying you're pro-crime if you help a gay man hide out in Uganda. Some things just shouldn't be considered crimes in the first place. The pilot is still a soldier in a war zone and killing him while he's incapable of fighting back is still the best time to kill him rather than giving him a chance to fight back later and perhaps cost the life of someone on your side.
 
Some things just shouldn't be considered crimes in the first place. The pilot is still a soldier in a war zone and killing him while he's incapable of fighting back is still the best time to kill him rather than giving him a chance to fight back later and perhaps cost the life of someone on your side.
Just because you don't think something should be a war crime doesn't nullify the Geneva conventions defining war crimes. Its a war crime period.
 
Some things just shouldn't be considered crimes in the first place. The pilot is still a soldier in a war zone and killing him while he's incapable of fighting back is still the best time to kill him rather than giving him a chance to fight back later and perhaps cost the life of someone on your side.
Just because you don't think something should be a war crime doesn't nullify the Geneva conventions defining war crimes. Its a war crime period.

Sure, it's defined to be war crime. What Tom is saying is that that definition is arbitrary, and inconsistent with many other actions that are not defined to be war crimes. For example, it is not a war crime to shoot at parachuting airborne infantry, no matter how combat (in)effective they are, even if they are bailing out of a damaged aircraft instead of performing a combat jump. So, shooting at a parachuting pilot armed with a machine gun is a war crime, but shooting at a parachuting infantryman is not (even if they've lost their weapons, like the infamous Normandy leg bags).

I'm not saying I have a better solution, but there's war crimes, and then there's war crimes. This is one of the former.
 
It is at least a ten sided war with most of the heavy hardware participants coming from the outside. There really are also at least 10 fresh oxen running loose all over that area and their owners in military industrial land ready to scream their heads off if one of their jet powered oxen gets blasted. If the plane actually entered Turkish air space, it probably was inadvertent. That really doesn't matter. It's a long way from home and on a mission of destruction. The U.S. is not the only country that bullies the world with its military might. War seems the only crime where all who are involved in ANY CAPACITY are equally criminals if they are attempting to kill someone. It is not a matter of justifying this shit. World leaders are playing this like a board game and pretty much all should have their knuckles rapper with a ruler. We need to reconnect with the reality of our own human frailty in the face of our stupid ideologies.
 
For example, it is not a war crime to shoot at parachuting airborne infantry, no matter how combat (in)effective they are, even if they are bailing out of a damaged aircraft instead of performing a combat jump. So, shooting at a parachuting pilot armed with a machine gun is a war crime, but shooting at a parachuting infantryman is not (even if they've lost their weapons, like the infamous Normandy leg bags).
That's not an arbitrary distinction because its unreasonable to expect ground troops to know whether the special operations commando parachuting in on them is combat ready or not. Spec-ops are trained to land guns ablazing and are highly lethal while incomming. Pilots carry pistols not infantry rifles and their ejection seat doesn't allow them to deploy a weapon anyway.
 
When the UK scrambled fighters in response to Russian aircraft getting too close to Ireland's borders, the Russians had deliberately turned off their planes transponders so that they'd have a level of deniability about how close to the borders they'd been flying. So, they do at least have transponders which tell them the exact location of their planes at all times and there's no reason to turn these off during actual military missions. Everything about the planes are monitored from Russian airbases, so they knew exactly where the planes were and they knew exactly what the Turks were saying to the pilots.

If they don't have that level of control (which I wouldn't readily believe) then they have no business flying within a kilometer of a country which has told them to stay the fuck away because they can't guarantee that this distance has been kept.
This is different. Transponders is a safety device during peace time and turning it off is dangerous and not nice. During all out war there are no transponders.
Russian military jets in Europe never seem to have their transponders on, and I do agree that it's not nice.
 
Shooting aircrew who are parachuting from a disabled aircraft is a crime under Article 42 of Protocol I (1977) to the 1949 Geneva Convention; However Turkey is not a signatory to, nor has she ratified that protocol (although Syria has). The USA has not ratified Protocol I either.

Article 42 -- Occupants of aircraft

1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.

Details of the discussions that led to the adoption of this rule as written can be found here.

The relevant discussion is summarised as follows:
The arguments of those who were opposed to an absolute rule are of two kinds. In the first place, they argued that an airman suspended from his parachute is perfectly capable of committing a hostile act during his descent, for example, by opening fire on persons on the ground, and consequently the text should be amended accordingly. Other delegates contested this view on the basis of their personal experience of parachuting, and the amendment did not gain a sufficient number of votes to be adopted at the plenary meeting.

The second argument of the same delegates was that although an airman parachuting from an aircraft may be ' hors de combat ' during his descent, he is only ' hors de combat ' temporarily if he lands in friendly territory. Moreover, it is possible that he could try to escape during the descent itself by guiding the direction of the descent, though this also depends on the wind. Additionally, a person who lands in allied territory escapes capture, and therefore the conditions of Article 41 ' (Safeguard of an enemy hors de combat) ' are no longer fulfilled. To give airmen, who have control of tremendous firing power, this sort of advantage compared to other combatants, is out of proportion to the devastation which these airmen can cause nowadays. Such courtesy is not reconcilable with that owed the civilian population, and practice during the Second World War does not confirm any such rule.

Moreover, it is not uncommon for airmen in distress, parachuting not into their own territory, but into enemy territory, to transmit distress signals during their descent intended to alert their own forces and lead to a rescue operation, with the aim of escape. It was stated that this clearly proves that these persons are not ' hors de combat ' during their descent, and certainly have no intention of surrendering. Consequently the conditions of paragraph 1 of Article 41 [ Link ] ' (Safeguard of an enemy hors de combat) ' are not fulfilled and the safeguard should not be granted.



The main speaker to reply to these objections was the representative of the ICRC. He considered that any decision to restrict the safeguard provided for in paragraph 1 of Article 42 would introduce in the Protocol an element contrary to its purpose and spirit. The Geneva Conventions only contain provisions protecting victims of war, they do not give States rights against these victims. Since 1864, when States adopted the first Geneva Convention for the amelioration of the condition of wounded soldiers in armed forces in the field, they accepted that they would have to sacrifice some of their power for the benefit of human beings, for a compelling humanitarian need. The law in this respect should not be questioned again. On the contrary, it has been extended since then to other categories of victims of hostilities, including airmen in distress who are actually "shipwrecked in the air", as it were.

Others argued that the elimination of a few pilots cannot be a decisive way of winning a war. Finally, the decision favoured by the minority could have a disastrous effect on pilots, who would either tend to avoid the risks necessarily involved in restricting their attack to the assigned military target, or would not bail out but undertake a desperate defence with the means still at their disposal, which would not be to the advantage of the adverse Party.

A number of delegations explicitly approved the ICRC position, and the proposal of the minority was rejected

[...]

The rule adopted, admittedly only by majority vote, is therefore clear and without reservations. However, its application can involve difficulties, for it is not always easy, in particular for combatants on the ground or at night, to distinguish between a parachutist in distress and a parachutist who is attacking, or even a spy, or to realize that the crew concerned is descending from an aircraft in distress when this is flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres or more. However, these considerations should not constitute an obstacle to the application in good faith of the rule of this paragraph.
 
Firing on para-shooting pilots is a Geneva war crime. And these are the moderate Muslims the US wants to overthrow Assad.

link

I don't see why. If they can shoot at you while you're defenceless against them, it's a bit unkosher to insist that you can't shoot at them while they're defenceless against you. That sounds like a war crime in the same way that jaywalking is a crime.

It's not a matter of defenseless. It's perfectly legal to shoot a descending paratrooper.

The thing is a descending pilot has already been defeated and is no threat. That's why you're not supposed to shoot at them.
 
Shooting aircrew who are parachuting from a disabled aircraft is a crime under Article 42 of Protocol I (1977) to the 1949 Geneva Convention; However Turkey is not a signatory to, nor has she ratified that protocol (although Syria has). The USA has not ratified Protocol I either.
I don't think the Turkish forces shot the pilots. It looks like it was forces associated with the Free Syrian Army.
 
It wasn't particularly smart of the rebels to shoot the pilots. Taking them alive as prisoners would have been much more trouble for Russia, and them being dead is probably a relief to Putin.

Russia is promising severe consequences, but I'm a bit skeptical what they can be. Russia could attack Turkey directly, but then Turkey could invoke Article 5 and get other NATO countries involved, many of whom probably wouldn't mind having an excuse to directly attack Assad. I don't think even Russia wants that kind of escalation. More likely measures could be economic and diplomatic pressure, as well as propaganda warfare isolating Turkey as ISIS supporters (which isn't that far from the truth). So maybe something good will come out of this... Turkey gets called out for helping ISIS, Russia learns a lesson to not fly in other countries' airspace without permission.
 
What about this: Oh well, it's a war zone and shit like this is going to happen.

War crimes? When's the last time the Geneva Convention prevented an atrocity? Besides, war crimes are generally only worth invoking when something especially horrific has occurred. Two Russians dying in a combat zone while flying a bombing/strafing mission does not a real war crime make. And who are they going to prosecute? The group of guys with machine-guns whose side they probably don't even know they're on?

Is Putin going to argue that air space rights are for Russia to determine at their convenience?

"Turkey, why did you shoot down that Russian plane?"

"Because it was armed, in our airspace, had been warned to turn away, and it didn't. Plus we'd been telling them this shit for weeks."

Yeah. Rock solid case for a "war crime."

Was this supposed to be a risk-free campaign for the mighty-mite Putin?
As if Russia can handle this mess. Ha!
And as time goes on, it is inevitable that more Russians will die.
Then what? Commit more forces?

And Obama's detractors can say what they want, but it's been prudent to keep this clusterfuck at arm's length.
 
You seem to think all nations must have these weapons.

Most don't need them.

And by having them the world is far less safe. And the outbreak of war is more likely.

You don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. The alternative to weapons producers like the US selling their weapons, is to only have those weapon producing countries themselves have weapons. That is unacceptable to 99% of the planet's countries who regardless of whether you think they need weapons or not, *will* respond by developing their own weapons. Of course, that's not particularly relevant since even if you could somehow convince the US to stop selling weapons, you'd never convince everyone else to do the same.


The reason these nations have these jets is to feed the MIC.

No, it isn't. These countries do not have MIC's like that of the US, and they have no interest in feeding yours. These countries have these jets for their own geopolitical interests.


There is always a need for new jets. But there is money to be made by selling the old jets, or their parts to foreign nations. It is insatiable greed driving the whole thing.

Is that why we're losing money by giving some stuff away to our allies and refusing to sell to certain countries only so that others can swoop in and make the money? Doesn't sound like insatiable greed to me.
 
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