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Two stonewalling and foot-dragging prosecutors lose their jobs last night

It took over a year to bring charges. And if you think she is overcharging this thug for political reasons,
So you have no trouble calling the cop a thug but won't call the dead guy, who has an extensive juvie record and who was menacing and attacking people with a knife while high on PCP a thug. Quite telling.
then if you are consistent think you must agree that clearly the voters did the right thing in getting rid of her.
Except that the mob who voted her out wants an even more aggressive anti-police stance by the prosecutor. And the new prosecutor will know - if I do not aggressively prosecute a cop whenever they shoot a black criminal I will be for the chop too.
 
So you have no trouble calling the cop a thug but won't call the dead guy, who has an extensive juvie record and who was menacing and attacking people with a knife while high on PCP a thug. Quite telling.
I have no trouble calling people who meet the definition of "thug" thugs, so you assume facts not in evidence. Why is that?

Except that the mob who voted her out wants an even more aggressive anti-police stance by the prosecutor.
You have no clue what prompted the voters to vote her out. It is telling you refer to the electorate as "the mob".
As
And the new prosecutor will know - if I do not aggressively prosecute a cop whenever they shoot a black criminal I will be for the chop too.
Please stop confusing your assumptions with reality.
 
So the next one will prosecute the cop who quite correctly shoots a black. And after that there law enforcement will suffer.

I suppose that could happen if the next one is some kind of lawless maverick. But if the next one is simply competent, dutiful, and acts in accordance with their oath of office, he or she will prosecute cops who shoot people unnecessarily, unlawfully, and/or wrongly. The victim's skin tone will have no bearing whatsoever.

The next one would simply be doing what the voters want.

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You are assuming that a conviction is not possible which is not the same as "changes of winning are not decent". Moreover, how is making a person who you believe is guilty go to trial burdening them?

And why is the DA concerned with "burdening" at all?

It's not the DA's job to decide what constitutes "burdening" people. That's for the lawmakers to consider and the judges to decide. The DA's job is to prosecute a suspected criminal when he or she has sufficient evidence to present to the court that:
1) a crime took place and
2) the suspect did it.

In the case of Officer Van Dyke, the evidence that a crime took place and he's the one who committed it isn't just sufficient, it's overwhelming. The Prosecutor utterly failed to do her job. I for one am glad her thumb is no longer tipping the scales of justice in favor of cops who murder suspects.

Prosecuting a case you can't win is unreasonable conduct that if it weren't for the immunity that's granted prosecutors would result in a big lawsuit.
 
I suppose that could happen if the next one is some kind of lawless maverick. But if the next one is simply competent, dutiful, and acts in accordance with their oath of office, he or she will prosecute cops who shoot people unnecessarily, unlawfully, and/or wrongly. The victim's skin tone will have no bearing whatsoever.

The next one would simply be doing what the voters want.

Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

You are assuming that a conviction is not possible which is not the same as "changes of winning are not decent". Moreover, how is making a person who you believe is guilty go to trial burdening them?

And why is the DA concerned with "burdening" at all?

It's not the DA's job to decide what constitutes "burdening" people. That's for the lawmakers to consider and the judges to decide. The DA's job is to prosecute a suspected criminal when he or she has sufficient evidence to present to the court that:
1) a crime took place and
2) the suspect did it.

In the case of Officer Van Dyke, the evidence that a crime took place and he's the one who committed it isn't just sufficient, it's overwhelming. The Prosecutor utterly failed to do her job. I for one am glad her thumb is no longer tipping the scales of justice in favor of cops who murder suspects.

Prosecuting a case you can't win is unreasonable conduct that if it weren't for the immunity that's granted prosecutors would result in a big lawsuit.

You don't think the prosecution can win a case with clear and convincing evidence Van Dyke shot Mac Donald 14 times after he was already down and helpless?

I do.
 
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And why is the DA concerned with "burdening" at all?
Because the accused is still a citizen. How would you feel if a DA decided to charge you against his better judgment merely because the mob is demanding it and the DA risks losing reelection if he declines to prosecute you?

The Prosecutor isn't the one who deals with questions of whether or not prosecutorial action is burdensome. That's the legislator's job to legislate, the Defense's job to plead, and the judge's decision to make. He or she might consider what the defense will argue - that it's burdensome - and whether a judge will agree, but it's not their job to make that argument. Their job is to build a case and prosecute.

When you ask about a prosecutor charging me "against his better judgment" merely because "the mob is demanding it and the DA risks losing reelection", are you suggesting there is insufficient evidence a crime was committed, or insufficient evidence I'm the one who committed it? That would be wrongful prosecution. Are you suggesting the prosecutor knows of exculpatory evidence that he has not turned over to the defense? That would be Prosecutorial misconduct. Or are you talking about a case where the prosecutor likes me or doesn't want to bring charges for personal reasons (despite having sufficient evidence to make a case) but feels pressured to do it because a mob of people is standing outside his office holding up signs calling for Justice? In that case I'd have mixed feelings. My purely self-interested side would be aggravated that the guy was being pressured to do something against my self-interests, but the side of me that values community would have to admit that a prosecutor who won't prosecute out of his own self-interests renders our justice system unjust. He's supposed to do his job in accordance with the law, not in accordance with whatever is good for him or me personally.


The DA's job is to prosecute a suspected criminal when he or she has sufficient evidence to present to the court that:
1) a crime took place and
2) the suspect did it.
And that determination should not be affected by political considerations.

In the case of Officer Van Dyke, the evidence that a crime took place and he's the one who committed it isn't just sufficient, it's overwhelming. The Prosecutor utterly failed to do her job. I for one am glad her thumb is no longer tipping the scales of justice in favor of cops who murder suspects.
But she did charge him. In fact, she overcharged him as there is no evidence what he did constitutes "1st degree murder" but is probably manslaughter.

That depends on how the law in Illinois is worded. But please keep in mind Officer Van Dyke was never in any danger. He shot MacDonald twice, paused as MacDonald fell to the ground, and then shot him 14 more times as the guy was lying there helpless. That's more in line with an execution than justifiable use of force. First degree murder sounds about right.

After all, this #BLM hero was menacing people with a knife and even attacked the responding cop car. The initial shots were perfectly justified, where Van Dyke went wrong is that he continued shooting after the threat was neutralized.

I'm glad you recognize the 14 additional shots after MacDonald was down and helpless were unjustified.

And why is the DA taken to task so much for taking too long to charge a police officer when there are many many more non-police shootings in Chicago than police shootings? There are more than 400 murders in Chicago every year. Shouldn't that be a priority and not the death of some crazy knife wielding maniac with an extensive juvie record?

We don't judge murder cases based on how much we dislike the victim.

As for priorities, the only thing we should prioritize in our justice system is fairness and justice itself. It was neither fair nor just that the man who repeatedly shot Laquan MacDonald as he was lying helpless in the street was protected from prosecution despite clear and convincing evidence of his wrongdoing.

And as far as Tamir Rice, I see no reason the DA did not follow his best professional judgment. In the older thread on the case, recently revived, it says that two independent experts were of the opinion that the shooting, as tragic as it was, did not constitute a crime by the officers. Should the DA have charged them anyway just to appease the mob?

There were irregularities in how he handled the case before the Grand Jury, including his calling the defense to present their side without cross examination, not to mention his attack on the victim's family. He was playing fast and loose with the rules. His handling of the case appears to be another case of a Prosecutor with his thumb on the scales, tipping them in favor of the cops.
 
Prosecuting a case you can't win is unreasonable conduct that if it weren't for the immunity that's granted prosecutors would result in a big lawsuit.
You are shifting the goal posts. It was "a decent chance of winning". Now, it is "a case you can't win".

Your position would be more appealing if you showed the same concern for the unreasonable burdens unarmed and innocent victims of police shootings face as you do for guilty people facing prosecution in cases which are difficult to prosecute.
 
The next one would simply be doing what the voters want.

Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

:hysterical:

That's a good one. Have you considered a career in stand-up?

The voters are mostly petty fascists, who want the DA to come down hard on their outgroup, while giving their ingroup a free pass. And even in the unlikely event that the voters wanted what you say they want, they are not qualified to determine which candidate(s) would provide it; and don't care enough to get informed on the subject.

The public are, generally, disinterested in politics and voting. They care a little bit about the big offices - Presidents and Governors - but very few really give a shit about the office of DA.

That the public basically don't care is clearly illustrated by the fact that money talks - if political advertising works, then that shows that voters don't care about (and likely don't know about) the candidates actual positions and platforms; all they 'know' is what the advertising tells them. So the deepest pockets win.
 
Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

:hysterical:

That's a good one. Have you considered a career in stand-up?

The voters are mostly petty fascists, who want the DA to come down hard on their outgroup, while giving their ingroup a free pass. And even in the unlikely event that the voters wanted what you say they want, they are not qualified to determine which candidate(s) would provide it; and don't care enough to get informed on the subject.

The public are, generally, disinterested in politics and voting. They care a little bit about the big offices - Presidents and Governors - but very few really give a shit about the office of DA.

That the public basically don't care is clearly illustrated by the fact that money talks - if political advertising works, then that shows that voters don't care about (and likely don't know about) the candidates actual positions and platforms; all they 'know' is what the advertising tells them. So the deepest pockets win.

I agree that most voters put very little effort into evaluating candidates before selecting one, especially down-ticket candidates like prosecutors and members of the school board. But I disagree with any suggestion they want to elect feckless incompetents who fail to carry out their duties faithfully and uphold their oath of office, like Alvarez and McGinty.
 
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The Prosecutor isn't the one who deals with questions of whether or not prosecutorial action is burdensome. That's the legislator's job to legislate, the Defense's job to plead, and the judge's decision to make. He or she might consider what the defense will argue - that it's burdensome - and whether a judge will agree, but it's not their job to make that argument. Their job is to build a case and prosecute.
Prosecutors have a great deal of discretion on whether to charge and what charges to bring. So why should they bring every single case to trial when the accused is the cop, regardless of their judgment, just because the electorate demands it.

When you ask about a prosecutor charging me "against his better judgment" merely because "the mob is demanding it and the DA risks losing reelection", are you suggesting there is insufficient evidence a crime was committed, or insufficient evidence I'm the one who committed it? That would be wrongful prosecution.
That certainly happens. See Mike Nifong (we are commemorating 10 years of the Duke Lacrosse travesty this year). Of course there were many on here and elsewhere who supported Mike Nifong because they shared the same prejudices as the mob/electorate he was appealing to.

Or are you talking about a case where the prosecutor likes me or doesn't want to bring charges for personal reasons (despite having sufficient evidence to make a case) but feels pressured to do it because a mob of people is standing outside his office holding up signs calling for Justice? In that case I'd have mixed feelings. My purely self-interested side would be aggravated that the guy was being pressured to do something against my self-interests, but the side of me that values community would have to admit that a prosecutor who won't prosecute out of his own self-interests renders our justice system unjust. He's supposed to do his job in accordance with the law, not in accordance with whatever is good for him or me personally.
Or much more likely, he has a weak case where there is some evidence but a conviction is unlikely because that evidence, while clearing the minimum "probable cause" standard is unlikely to meet "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. Without public pressure, a prosecutor is unlikely to prosecute in that case because in addition to needlessly burdening the defendant, trials cost a great deal of money for the county as well.

That depends on how the law in Illinois is worded.
What in the wording justifies charging somebody who legitimately confronted an armed and dangerous threat and overreacted?

But please keep in mind Officer Van Dyke was never in any danger.
The perp was 10 feet from Van Dyke when he was shot. That's no distance for a knife-wielding attacker to cover, especially when hopped up on PCP.

He shot MacDonald twice, paused as MacDonald fell to the ground, and then shot him 14 more times as the guy was lying there helpless. That's more in line with an execution than justifiable use of force. First degree murder sounds about right.
Given that first degree murder is the highest possible homicide charge it should be reserved for worst cases. Laquan posed a threat to the police and others, he was armed and aggressive. He was also in close proximity to the officers and had attacked a police car moments before.

I'm glad you recognize the 14 additional shots after MacDonald was down and helpless were unjustified.
I never claimed otherwise.

We don't judge murder cases based on how much we dislike the victim.
Two things here.
1. Who the shootee was should determine how we feel about him and his demise. And even when the shooting is unjustified, why should I be outraged if somebody like Laquan is shot. His killing probably saved somebody else's life down the road. On the other hand, #BLMers not only like Laquan, they love him:
CdT4lEfXEAArYbn.jpg

2. Who the shootee is and what he was doing when he was shot is certainly relevant. If Laquan was just minding his business and was shot for no reason I would get both the protester outrage and prosecutor going with strongest possible charge. But given Laquan's behavior, neither is justified because he was a genuine threat.

As for priorities, the only thing we should prioritize in our justice system is fairness and justice itself. It was neither fair nor just that the man who repeatedly shot Laquan MacDonald as he was lying helpless in the street was protected from prosecution despite clear and convincing evidence of his wrongdoing.
Yes, fairness and justice. Thus, we should not overcharge because of emotional appeals or mob demands.

There were irregularities in how he handled the case before the Grand Jury, including his calling the defense to present their side without cross examination, not to mention his attack on the victim's family. He was playing fast and loose with the rules. His handling of the case appears to be another case of a Prosecutor with his thumb on the scales, tipping them in favor of the cops.
Can you elaborate, especially re attacks on the family?
I know there have been experts reviewing the case who agreed with the prosecutor. Why should the DA listen to the mob or the family rather than to them?
 
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The next one would simply be doing what the voters want.

Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

No. What the voters want is someone who will prosecute those the voters think are guilty. The facts don't enter into it.
 
Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

No. What the voters want is someone who will prosecute those the voters think are guilty. The facts don't enter into it.

When facts demonstrate the police are in fact guilty of gross negligence and outright murder, and the authorities refuse to act, the facts do really enter into it.

"He shot MacDonald twice, paused as MacDonald fell to the ground, and then shot him 14 more times as the guy was lying there helpless. That's more in line with an execution than justifiable use of force. First degree murder sounds about right."
 
Well, considering that the voters want a prosecutor who will perform their official duties competently, faithfully, and in accordance with their oath of office, that's a good thing.

:hysterical:

That's a good one. Have you considered a career in stand-up?

The voters are mostly petty fascists, who want the DA to come down hard on their outgroup, while giving their ingroup a free pass. And even in the unlikely event that the voters wanted what you say they want, they are not qualified to determine which candidate(s) would provide it; and don't care enough to get informed on the subject.

The public are, generally, disinterested in politics and voting. They care a little bit about the big offices - Presidents and Governors - but very few really give a shit about the office of DA.

That the public basically don't care is clearly illustrated by the fact that money talks - if political advertising works, then that shows that voters don't care about (and likely don't know about) the candidates actual positions and platforms; all they 'know' is what the advertising tells them. So the deepest pockets win.
Until someone can show that any other method of choosing prosecutors and monitoring them involves people who would clearly care more about what the prosecutors do and are willing to remove them when they are incompetent or misbehave, all of this discussion is moot.

In this thread, most of the implicit critics of the removal of these two DAs are kneejerk defenders of police brutality and misbehavior, especially when it is directed towards minorities. These two DAs deserved their removal.
 
No. What the voters want is someone who will prosecute those the voters think are guilty. The facts don't enter into it.

When facts demonstrate the police are in fact guilty of gross negligence and outright murder, and the authorities refuse to act, the facts do really enter into it.

"He shot MacDonald twice, paused as MacDonald fell to the ground, and then shot him 14 more times as the guy was lying there helpless. That's more in line with an execution than justifiable use of force. First degree murder sounds about right."

You think the facts are ironclad. Much of what we have seen has not been reliable reporting, there has even been an outright fraudulent video supposedly showing a long delay in the shots.
 
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