UK thought police arrest woman for silent prayer

[laughing dog]

So this woman is not just a troll but the head troll!

 

[Rhea]

“Isabel Vaughan-Spruce Co-CEO of March for Life UK”
“The woman who was arrested, Isabel Vaughan-Spruce, is the director of the U.K. March for Life.”

 

[Metaphor]

Row erupts after false claim 'Woman arrested for silent praying' - here's what really happened

A pro-life woman who stood outside an abortion clinic in Kings Norton, Birmingham, in violation of a public space protection order, has found herself in the middle of a furious row after her case was picked up by a conservative outlet in the US. Misinformation about why Isabel Vaughan Spruce, 45, was arrested spread around social media after Mary Margaret Olohan, a senior reporter for the US publication The Daily Signal, shared the video of the arrest and falsely claimed it was for “silent praying”. Twitter was forced to attach a corrective statement to Ms Olohan’s post after it went viral.

So basically she was doing this:

View attachment 41634

I have even less idea what was supposed to have happened.

Ms Vaughan-Spruce responded that she was standing in front of “an abortion centre” but that she was not protesting. She said that she was “praying in her head”.

She later refused to voluntarily go to the police station upon the request of the officer, forcing her to be arrested in accordance with the law.

That is misinformation. It wasn't "later", like she went home or something. During the conversation, the police officer asked 'will you come with us voluntarily' and she said 'no', and they arrested her. There is nothing 'voluntary' about coming along with police if the alternative is 'if you don't come, we will force you to come'.

“She was arrested for breaking a temporary Public Space Protection Order on four separate occasions which were used to ban protests outside of an abortion clinic due to safety concerns.”

Ms Spruce was charged with breaching an exclusion zone and “four counts of failing to comply with a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO)”, according to West Midlands police.

Again, what was she doing to 'breach' the exclusion zone?

 

[Metaphor]

This lady was charged with FOUR COUNTS of vioalting the order.

Here’s a little background of what led to getting the order:

Calls to end years of anti-abortion protests outside city clinic

Complaints have been made about "pro-life" campaigners handing out graphic leaflets, chanting and blocking access to women using the facility

www.birminghammail.co.uk

Neighbours of a Birmingham abortion clinic say years of protests in their street have left residents feeling "miserable and helpless" and service users in tears. Complaints have been made about "pro-life" campaigners handing out graphic leaflets, chanting and blocking access to women using the Robert Clinic in Kings Norton.

Birmingham City Council has launched a consultation to ban all abortion protests near the Station Road facility by introducing a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO). According to the consultation documents, members of the '40 Days For Life' anti-abortion group have been pitching up outside the clinic twice a year in autumn and over Lent for 40 consecutive days each time, as well as on a twice-weekly basis throughout the year.

Not sure why any of you would want to defend someone who is acting to intimidate and upset clinic users - menacing behavior standing around the entrance.


Four violations. It’s clearly not accurate that she was “just praying silently”.

If she was arrested for previous violations and not for the incident originally reported, then why did the police officer ask her if she was praying? What difference did her praying in her head make?

The news title misleads; she was not arrested “for praying silently,” she was arrested for violating the public space order.

How was she doing that?

An order that was put in place after years of bad behavior by this group of which she is the CEO, not some innocent passerby. She knows exactly what she is doing and her published intent is to disrupt women from getting medical treatment.

Why do you defend her?

Because I don't like the idea of police officers arresting people for thought crimes?

Why do you make excuses that her stated goal is okay to carry ut because she’s goading, brinking, edgelording to create the havoc while trying to say that she’s right to do it? She publicly states by being CEO of this organization, that her intent is to do the thing that this order prohibits.

And people here want to defend that? Why?

Woman charged with breaching exclusion zone near abortion clinic

She was arrested close to the BPAS Robert Clinic in Kings Norton

www.birminghammail.co.uk

I am defending the right of members of the public to think certain thoughts, even when they are in public, and not be arrested for them.

 

[Metaphor]

The woman in the OP was employing such an obvious troll tactic I'm genuinely surprised any veterans of the original IIDB, Rants n Raves, The Secular Cafe, Talk Rational, or even Christian Forums didn't spot it just from reading the original link.

It appears she knew about the ordinance, was deliberately violating it in such a way to generate the most drama,

How was she violating it? Please be specific.

and sure enough, here come the 'free speech' extremists crying because they aren't allowed to pee in everybody else's Wheaties.

 

[Rhea]

I have no idea why the police asked her that. It sounds like they did something stupid by asking her that. Because the protected space order doesn’t mention that. So regardless of the police asing a stupid question, she was violating the non-thought-related order and was arrested and charged with four counts.

You can semantically cling to a weird and probably wrong question by the police, in yyour effort to support her intimidation of the customers of that business, but her violation is both obvious and deliberate. Not sure why you want to defend people intimidating and bullying people publicly on a twice-weekly basis for years. What a weird thing to spend so much effort supporting. She’s acting like a thug intimidating a neighborhood business, twice weekly for years.

Birmingham City Council has launched a consultation to ban all abortion protests near the Station Road facility by introducing a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO). According to the consultation documents, members of the '40 Days For Life' anti-abortion group have been pitching up outside the clinic twice a year in autumn and over Lent for 40 consecutive days each time, as well as on a twice-weekly basis throughout the year

 

[Metaphor]

I have no idea why the police asked her that. It sounds like they did something stupid by asking her that. Because the protected space order doesn’t mention that. So regardless of the police asing a stupid questionn she was violating the non-thought-related order and was arresed and charged with four counts.

What was the non-thought related order? Was she forbidden from standing silently outside the abortion clinic?

You can semantically cling to a weird and probably wrong question by the police,

I don't know if the question was 'wrong'. Do you? If 'praying in your head' does not have any material relation to why she was arrested, then why did the police officer ask? And what was she doing that violated the protection order?

but her violation is both obvious and deliberate.

How?

Not sure why you want to defend people intimidating and bullying people publicly on a weekly basis.

I am not 'defending' her. I am asking what was she doing that violated this protection order? Did standing silently outside the abortion clinic violate it?

What a weird thing to spend so much effort supporting.

Why is being worried about thoughtcrime becoming a reality 'weird'?

She’s acting like a thug intimidating a neighborhood business.

That may be, but is 'standing silently in the street' a crime under these protection orders?

 

[Rhea]

From one of the residents:

My personal views are pro-choice but in our group we've got a range of views. We're in quite a unique position because we have an abortion clinic on one end of the road and a catholic church at the other - but everyone in our group is united in our abhorrence of the fact people are pushing their views on women in these circumstances.

"People do get very heated because it provokes a lot of strong feelings. It's a regular drip, drip, drip with the protesting and then something explodes and there is an incident - it's consistently a very tense situation and we know that is has caused tensions in the local community.

"These protesters are not from this area and we feel strongly that this is our clinic and we will defend it and women's right to access legal, safe healthcare."

 

[laughing dog]

Arctish’s post (#77) has a link to the encounter video, so any honest participant in the discussion can see what happened. Rhea’s post (#80) shows these protests have been disturbing neighbors and prospective clients for years which is why the PSPO was enacted.

This troll was not arrested for silent praying. She is trying to prevent access to legal health care and counseling.

 

[Politesse]

The woman in the OP was employing such an obvious troll tactic I'm genuinely surprised any veterans of the original IIDB, Rants n Raves, The Secular Cafe, Talk Rational, or even Christian Forums didn't spot it just from reading the original link.

I mean, I did figure this would turn out to be the case. These types of headlines generally aren't reliable summaries of events. I did wonder we'd ever get an accurate account, or whether the event was too obscure for one to ever surface.

 

[Rhea]

Neighbours of abortion clinic say ban 'not enough' as protests resume nearby

Weeks after abortion protests were banned outside the Robert Clinic, neighbours say 'pro life' activists are causing tensions to flare in the local community

www.birminghammail.co.uk

The order was granted after more than 2,000 people responded to a consultation following a rise in reports of anti-social behaviour since 2018. These included reports of large groups chanting, blocking women from accessing the clinic, protesters handing out graphic leaflets and approaching local schoolchildren, plus altercations with local residents.


Local resident Liz Bates said: “We were concerned at the outset that the boundary of the buffer zone would not be sufficient and would be too great a temptation for the protesters to resist. Sadly they have decided to go ahead and ignore 90 per cent of the community who find their protest abhorrent.

 

[Metaphor]

Arctish’s post (#77) has a link to the encounter video, so any honest participant in the discussion can see what happened. Rhea’s post (#80) shows these protests have been disturbing neighbors and prospective clients for years which is why the PSPO was enacted.

This troll was not arrested for silent praying.

I've seen the video. This is what happens
*Police caution woman
*The woman is asked what she is doing
*She responds she is standing
*Police asks her why here
*She says 'it is an abortion clinic'
*Police ask if she is praying
*"I might be praying inside my head"
*"Will you come with us voluntarily to the Station"
*No
*We are arresting you.

What was she arrested for, and why was she asked if she was praying? Was she arrested for standing silently outside the abortion clinic? Is that forbidden by the protection order?

 

[Metaphor]

Neighbours of abortion clinic say ban 'not enough' as protests resume nearby

Weeks after abortion protests were banned outside the Robert Clinic, neighbours say 'pro life' activists are causing tensions to flare in the local community

www.birminghammail.co.uk

The order was granted after more than 2,000 people responded to a consultation following a rise in reports of anti-social behaviour since 2018. These included reports of large groups chanting, blocking women from accessing the clinic, protesters handing out graphic leaflets and approaching local schoolchildren, plus altercations with local residents.


Local resident Liz Bates said: “We were concerned at the outset that the boundary of the buffer zone would not be sufficient and would be too great a temptation for the protesters to resist. Sadly they have decided to go ahead and ignore 90 per cent of the community who find their protest abhorrent.

Rhea, you appear to be making a case for the protection order, but you haven't answered my question.

What was this woman arrested for? Is standing silently outside the abortion clinic a violation of the protection order?

 

[Metaphor]

Why do you defend her? Why do you make excuses that her stated goal is okay to carry ut because she’s goading, brinking, edgelording to create the havoc while trying to say that she’s right to do it?

As far as I can tell, public space protection orders forbid specific activities within the protection zone. What I think has happened is that this woman knew that standing silently did not violate the PSPO, so standing silently is what she did. You might find it okay for police to 'enforce' things that are outside the actual letter of the law, but I don't. You might call it 'edgelording' or 'brinking', but those activities are not illegal - or perhaps they are.

I find it deeply troubling that you don't find anything wrong with the police arresting this woman for--apparently--standing silently outside an abortion clinic.

 

[Rhea]

Is standing silently outside the abortion clinic a violation of the protection order?

It is obvious to the most casual observer that the answer is yes.

And you know this, you can find it out quite easily as the PSPO is posted publicly

THE ACTIVITIES
The Activities prohibited by the Order are:
i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling,
ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff,
iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff,
iv Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff or
v Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy.

You are being deiberately obtuse to fail to acknowledge it.

“Including but not limited to”
”any act of disapproval”.
“Intimidating or harassing”


I know you’re not dumb, so you are certainly capable of understanding the intent to intimidate the service users and visitors by standing around the entrance and making the users run a gauntlet. And it is obvious from the comments of the residents that intimidation and harassement is exactly what is happening.

I am hard pressed to see why you would want to chain yourself to such people and support their intimidation, twice a week, every week - for years.

I mean - I see that you DO support them, that is clear. It’s just that they are rather dispicable people tryng to violate the law and claim they are “just standing there” when they get caught.

 

[Metaphor]

Is standing silently outside the abortion clinic a violation of the protection order?

It is obvious to the most casual observer that the answer is yes.

And you know this,

No, I didn't know. I have not seen the specific PSPO.

you can find it out quite easily as the PSPO is posted publicly

THE ACTIVITIES
The Activities prohibited by the Order are:
i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling,
ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff,
iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff,
iv Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff or
v Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy.

You are being deiberately obtuse to fail to acknowledge it.

The incident did not involve anything in ii-v, so I will ignore those.

It seems then, that she was arrested for 'protesting' which is so broadly defined it could mean anything. Literally anything a police officer decides is a protest. And apparently it includes 'standing silently', or, as the police officer implied 'standing silently praying in your head'.

If the police officer arrested her for merely standing silently, why did he ask her if she was praying? Obviously she was not praying aloud; he'd have been able to witness that himself, and the standing silently he did indeed witness. And if she was praying in her head, is that the evidence she was protesting? Surely not, as she had already said she was standing specifically outside the abortion clinic.

“Including but not limited to”
”any act of disapproval”.
“Intimidating or harassing”


I know you’re not dumb, so you are certainly capable of understanding the intent to intimidate the service users and visitors by standing around the entrance and making the users run a gauntlet. And it is obvious from the comments of the residents that intimidation and harassement is exactly what is happening.

I am hard pressed to see why you would want to chain yourself to such people and support their intimidation, twice a week, every week - for years.

I'm not chaining myself to them. That is your straw man. I am worried that police officers are arresting people for thought crimes, or arresting people for anything they think counts as protest.

Do you not see the potential for abuse in such a law?

I mean - I see that you DO support them, that is clear.

No, you don't see that Rhea. In fact, I don't support abusive protest that prohibits members of the public going about their business, as my comments in other threads ought make clear. Nor do I support such extreme subjectivity in a law, and the consequent potential for abuse by law enforcement that that subjectivity entails.

 

[Metaphor]

Thank you Rhea, for posting the PSPO information. It in fact makes the case stronger that the woman was arrested for praying in her head, as the police officer clearly used this information to decide she was protesting, and thus violating condition i) of the PSPO.

 

[Arctish]

No, the information Rhea has provided in answer to your questions (which you could have found yourself tbh) clearly indicates the woman was arrested for violating the PSPO.

Furthermore, we have reason to believe she was doing so knowingly and deliberately.

We also have reason to believe it was part of an ongoing campaign of disruption, harassment, and intimidation being orchestrated by her and her organization. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the police recognized her from previous incidents at that location.

That whole "maybe I'm praying in my head" shtick is a troll tactic. She wasn't supposed to be there unless she had legitimate business there (which she didn't).

 

[Metaphor]

No, the information Rhea has provided in answer to your questions (which you could have found yourself tbh) clearly indicates the woman was arrested for violating the PSPO.

Yes, I understand she was arrested for violating the PSPO by 'protesting' (assuming she was arrested for condition i) ).

The police officer did not arrest her until she said she was maybe praying in her head. That, apparently, was the evidence he needed to determine she was protesting, and therefore arrest her. Do you disagree?

Furthermore, we have reason to believe she was doing so knowingly and deliberately.

We also have reason to believe it was part of an ongoing campaign of disruption, harassment, and intimidation being orchestrated by her and her organization. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the police recognized her from previous incidents at that location.

That whole "maybe I'm praying in my head" shtick is a troll tactic. She wasn't supposed to be there unless she had legitimate business there (which she didn't).

Existing in the space is not a violation of the PSPO, so 'not supposed to be there' is not a thing.

I was and remain concerned that this police power is so subjective and so wide-reaching that a police officer can decide you were protesting based on what you say about what was going on in your head.

But perhaps you only care about police power when it's used against groups you favour?

 

[Arctish]

No, the information Rhea has provided in answer to your questions (which you could have found yourself tbh) clearly indicates the woman was arrested for violating the PSPO.

Yes, I understand she was arrested for violating the PSPO by 'protesting' (assuming she was arrested for condition i) ).

The police officer did not arrest her until she said she was maybe praying in her head. That, apparently, was the evidence he needed to determine she was protesting, and therefore arrest her. Do you disagree?

You obviously didn't read the PSPO despite Rhea linking to it, or at least didn't read it with comprehension. The definitions and requirements section holds the answers to most of your questions.

‘Protesting’ means being in the restricted area (whether by yourself or with others) and engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to, graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling; ‘Service user’ includes any patient or visitor to the Robert Clinic.

REQUIREMENTS 8. A person who is believed to have engaged in a breach of this order or in anti-social behaviour within the restricted area, is required to give their name and address to a police officer, police community support officer or other person designated by Birmingham City Council.
9. A person who is believed to have engaged in a breach of this order or in anti-social behaviour within the restricted area, is required to leave the area if asked to do so by a police officer, police community support officer or other person designated by Birmingham City Council.

Ffs read the PSPO before asking whether the cops were enforcing it correctly.

Furthermore, we have reason to believe she was doing so knowingly and deliberately.

We also have reason to believe it was part of an ongoing campaign of disruption, harassment, and intimidation being orchestrated by her and her organization. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the police recognized her from previous incidents at that location.

That whole "maybe I'm praying in my head" shtick is a troll tactic. She wasn't supposed to be there unless she had legitimate business there (which she didn't).

Existing in the space is not a violation of the PSPO, so 'not supposed to be there' is not a thing.

I was and remain concerned that this police power is so subjective and so wide-reaching that a police officer can decide you were protesting based on what you say about what was going on in your head.

You are and remain completely oblivious to the fact the woman in the OP is the head of the group whose relentless and on-going protests lead to the overwhelming majority of local residents petitioning the Council for the PSPO, and who most likely is easily recognizable as a serial harasser of the clinic's staff, clients, and neighbors.

She's not some random person just passing through while thinking about god. And even if she were, she was required to leave the area when asked to do so by the officer.

But perhaps you only care about police power when it's used against groups you favour?

I care about police power. I also care about laws, regulations, and codes of conduct. There are over 200 million adults in my society. We all have opinions, and we all need to get along despite our differences. The rules should be sensible and they should be enforced, hopefully with a minimum amount of violence.

I believe in and support the Right of Free Speech. I do not believe in or support any alleged 'right' to be an asshole, to harass people or intimidate them, to accost them as they go about their business, or deliberately offend or insult them. And I don't have a whole lot of respect for trolls. Maybe it's because I was a moderator on the old IIDB and Talk Rational for years, but IMO trolls like the woman in the OP are just being shitty so people will notice them.