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US President 2016 - the Great Horse Race

For those of you, on the left, that don't want Hillary Clinton, who is your realistic alternative? Who would you take, that's willing to run, and has a realistic shot at winning?

Now, this exemplifies why we need to get rid of party primaries. Even if the party primary used the best possible voting method for the party to select its candidate, you still have to strategically vote for who you perceive as being the strongest contender to beat the other guy in the general. It is bullshit to say that voters are free chose who they want in the primary.

What we should be doing is replacing party primaries with a single non-partisan primary with approval voting. You can always support the candidate you like most with very little chance of it blowing up in your face. You don't have to worry about presumptions (which could very well be faulty) about whether or not the candidates you support will be viable in the general election because unlike the first-past-the-post version of top two primaries, the top two under approval voting will always be two highly supported candidates.
 
For those of you, on the left, that don't want Hillary Clinton, who is your realistic alternative? Who would you take, that's willing to run, and has a realistic shot at winning?

Now, this exemplifies why we need to get rid of party primaries. Even if the party primary used the best possible voting method for the party to select its candidate, you still have to strategically vote for who you perceive as being the strongest contender to beat the other guy in the general. It is bullshit to say that voters are free chose who they want in the primary.

What we should be doing is replacing party primaries with a single non-partisan primary with approval voting. You can always support the candidate you like most with very little chance of it blowing up in your face. You don't have to worry about presumptions (which could very well be faulty) about whether or not the candidates you support will be viable in the general election because unlike the first-past-the-post version of top two primaries, the top two under approval voting will always be two highly supported candidates.

If the top two in the primaries are conservative republicans then what? In some states that may well be the case. Nationwide that would likely depend on the turnout in the primary as opposed to the turnout in the general election.

IMO to get out of the first past the post system, and have more than 2 parties we'd need to go to a Parliamentary system, with nationwide proportional representation. This would likely make 3rd parties viable, at least as far as the need for coalition government. I highly doubt that would happen.
 
For those of you, on the left, that don't want Hillary Clinton, who is your realistic alternative? Who would you take, that's willing to run, and has a realistic shot at winning?
Elizabeth Warren,not ready to run,but has less baggage.
 
That is a good question. We have about a year of the Hillary Clinton Coronation Tour to look forward to. This is going to need something to hold the public's interest along the way. The battle between her and Obama was fascinating and the interest it generated was very helpful to Obama in the general election. It also led to Sarah Palin's VP nomination and that's the kind of quality humour that you can't put a price on.
Sarah Palin's nomination had nothing to do with what Democrat was running. It was a Hail Mary attempt to give McCain's campaign some sort of traction to go up the hill of the '08 election that was made unbelievably steep by an inept W Administration.

I disagree. The reason for that particular Hail Mary was to try and grab up some female voters who were angry that Clinton got beat out in the Primary.
 
For those of you, on the left, that don't want Hillary Clinton, who is your realistic alternative? Who would you take, that's willing to run, and has a realistic shot at winning?
Elizabeth Warren,not ready to run,but has less baggage.

Elizabeth Warren has said, ad nauseam, that she's not willing to run.
 
Elizabeth Warren,not ready to run,but has less baggage.

Elizabeth Warren has said, ad nauseam, that she's not willing to run.
Warren / Booker 2024?

- - - Updated - - -

Another one declares his candidacy: He's in: Marco Rubio's presidential challenge - CNN.com

On the Democratic side, we can still have some interesting drama: who will be Hillary Clinton's Vice President?
And on the Republican side, Boehner is said to be starting investigations already into alleged abuse of powers as President by Hillary Clinton. First set of hearings begin in a few months. He says her impeachment is not off the table.

In other news, in an address in Havana, Rubio (while drinking and finishing a 32 oz beverage) stated that as a son of a Cuban immigrant that used many of America's great welfare/support programs to help him rise to become a Senator, that he'd do his best to eradicate those programs to keep others from enjoying the same level of support he enjoyed.
 
Take it up with the Democratic Party, then.
They don't care what I think. They know I have to vote for them.

The same could be said for the GOP. They've got a base that will vote for them no matter what, yet their party is still fighting like rabid dogs over the nomination. There are Republican Senators, Governors, and private citizens who have been floating trial balloons for months now. There has been nary a peep from the Dems.



Same thing could be said about '08.

Not really. There wear 8 Democrats who threw their hat into the ring for the nomination. Most of them fell by the wayside by January of '08, but Obama didn't exactly sail in from out of nowhere and snatch the nomination from Hillary at the last minute.


Andrew Cuomo and Mark Scheitzer come to mind. It is honestly way too early for names to make a difference.

The Republicans disagree. They know they've got an uphill battle demographically, which is why they're getting out ahead of the race so quickly.



The Democrats have put themselves into a position where they don't have any choice but Hillary Clinton.
Seeing the election is 18 months away, I can do nothing but laugh off that claim. Besides, there is always Martha Coakley. ;)


And while you're laughing, the GOP will be campaigning.

The last time there was a possibility of a third Democratic term in the White House, the party fumbled the ball. What should have been an easy victory was lost in no small part because the Democrats (party and voters alike) figured Gore was a shoe in and didn't fight as hard as they could have. I'm fairly well certain that Hillary has learned from that, and from her 2008 loss to Obama.

The party has (apparently) learned that they need a candidate that can win, and need to get behind them from day one. The voters (like yourself) need to remember that apathy and disillusionment can easily lead to another President Bush.
 
Elizabeth Warren has said, ad nauseam, that she's not willing to run.
Warren / Booker 2024?

Will she be willing to run then? Will she have a realistic chance of winning then? At this time, I don't think we can answer those questions. Don't get me wrong, I like her politically, but she has said that at least for this cycle she's not willing to run. I don't know if she'll change her mind by then.
 
Same thing could be said about '08.
Not really. There wear 8 Democrats who threw their hat into the ring for the nomination. Most of them fell by the wayside by January of '08, but Obama didn't exactly sail in from out of nowhere and snatch the nomination from Hillary at the last minute.
No, but this early it was Clinton by a country mile according to the press. It is just too early!

Andrew Cuomo and Mark Scheitzer come to mind. It is honestly way too early for names to make a difference.
The Republicans disagree. They know they've got an uphill battle demographically, which is why they're getting out ahead of the race so quickly.
Yeah, and Paul and Cruz have already had derail issues. Rubio just started, but he is just one "I used public support" comment from being sent down to 1% polling-ville.

The Democrats have put themselves into a position where they don't have any choice but Hillary Clinton.
Seeing the election is 18 months away, I can do nothing but laugh off that claim. Besides, there is always Martha Coakley. ;)
And while you're laughing, the GOP will be campaigning.
Iowa isn't for 8 or so months.

The last time there was a possibility of a third Democratic term in the White House, the party fumbled the ball.
...and won the plurality vote, and the election by a hair in Florida had the Republicans not cried to the Supreme Court, twice!
What should have been an easy victory was lost in no small part because the Democrats (party and voters alike) figured Gore was a shoe in and didn't fight as hard as they could have.
W ran on a platform of synthesis, working together. A much more moderate campaign than McCain's or Romney's. The Republicans have gone even further to the right since then.
 
My prediction is that no matter what Hillary Clinton does, the next POTUS will be a 50+ white male, whether Democrat or Republican. It will take several "rinse cycles" of old white men in that job before the window re-opens for anyone of a different sex or ethnicity. I suspect the leadership of the DNC thinks so, too, but their hands are tied until someone like O'Malley gets enough national traction to make it worth putting their resources into backing him. In the meantime, Hillary will take a crapload of flak, and then O'Malley (or whatever white guy) can jump in and say, "Well, I may not be much, but at least I'm not Hillary!"
 
There are more names on the Democrat side than just the Aryan Cherokee and the Hilldebeest.

 Democratic Party presidential candidates, 2016

OK, right now I'm issuing a call to action for every registered Democrat in the United States. You need to start supporting that 9/11 Truther guy just to get him polling high enough to appear in all the debates. That would be the best thing that's ever happened.
 
There are more names on the Democrat side than just the Aryan Cherokee and the Hilldebeest.

 Democratic Party presidential candidates, 2016

OK, right now I'm issuing a call to action for every registered Democrat in the United States. You need to start supporting that 9/11 Truther guy just to get him polling high enough to appear in all the debates. That would be the best thing that's ever happened.

You picked him over Vermin Supreme?
 
There are more names on the Democrat side than just the Aryan Cherokee and the Hilldebeest.

 Democratic Party presidential candidates, 2016
Lincoln Chafee, forgot about him. Was a Republican until '07, may have been one of the last Log Cabin Republicans. Became an Indy and then turned Democrat. He could be a huge success for the Democrats as running would almost assuredly give the Dems Rhode Island's electoral votes! As small as the state sounds, it still has more EVs than five states the Republicans can typically count on in the Presidential Election, despite being at least 25 times smaller.

This is important! Republicans are due a win in Rhode Island one of these times (only once in the last 40 years!).
 
If the top two in the primaries are conservative republicans then what? In some states that may well be the case. Nationwide that would likely depend on the turnout in the primary as opposed to the turnout in the general election.

The two candidates that make it to the general election would probably have a similar ideology, but that is a good thing. They'll be representing the real center of the population and it will be a competitive race in which the two will have to compete for ALL voters.

Right now, most districts are a lock for one party. You may have a Democrat and a Republican facing off, but that is irrelevant because it is guaranteed that the dominate party will win. It is basically just a show election in which the incumbent only has to answer to his base.

Let's imagine the worst case scenario in which you have a swing district in which one side has low voter turn out and you get two candidates who don't quite represent the center of the population. It is still going to be a competitive election and both candidates would still be more moderate than what they would have been if they had been picked by their base alone. The two candidates still need to win over as many voters as possible and the eventual winner still has to worry about being reelected next time in an environment that is much more competitive. In addition, if the winner completely marginalizes the side that didn't show up in the primary, that will likely energize that side to show up next time.

Either way you slice it, you still have to worry about turnout in the current system and in the system I propose. You could argue that lower voter turnout in primaries now indicates that there would be lower voter turnout in the approval primaries. That doesn't make much sense though because there are completely different circumstances surrounding the two scenarios.

Right now, the general election is the much more important election and the primaries generally exclude independents. Regardless of how the primary turns out, you are still going to get a Republican and Democrat. Even under plurality top two, you will still probably get a Republican or Democrat. Under a non-partisan approval primary, this is reversed. It is the primary that is the most important election and the general election is just a fine-tuning. It would make more sense for there to be higher turnout in the primary than the general.

The exception to this might be during the first couple elections if voters don't even realize that the primary procedure has changed.

IMO to get out of the first past the post system, and have more than 2 parties we'd need to go to a Parliamentary system, with nationwide proportional representation. This would likely make 3rd parties viable, at least as far as the need for coalition government. I highly doubt that would happen.

That would require a constitutional amendment. Non-partisan approval primaries could be done state by state. The Presidential elections would still be a problem, but I think the best solution for that is to try to get a bill passed in each state that allows approval voting to be used in the general election and allow the winner to determine who the State's EC delegates would be obligated to vote for.
 
OK, right now I'm issuing a call to action for every registered Democrat in the United States. You need to start supporting that 9/11 Truther guy just to get him polling high enough to appear in all the debates. That would be the best thing that's ever happened.

You picked him over Vermin Supreme?

9/11 Truthers beat out everybody else on the crazy index. It would be nice to have both of them there, but I don't want to split the vote and end up with neither because they both fell below the needed levels of support.
 
There are more names on the Democrat side than just the Aryan Cherokee and the Hilldebeest.

 Democratic Party presidential candidates, 2016
Lincoln Chafee, forgot about him. Was a Republican until '07, may have been one of the last Log Cabin Republicans. Became an Indy and then turned Democrat. He could be a huge success for the Democrats as running would almost assuredly give the Dems Rhode Island's electoral votes! As small as the state sounds, it still has more EVs than five states the Republicans can typically count on in the Presidential Election, despite being at least 25 times smaller.

This is important! Republicans are due a win in Rhode Island one of these times (only once in the last 40 years!).

I'm still hoping for a good showing by Brian Schweitzer. If he runs, I'll switch to Democrat to vote for him.

So far I don't have anyone I like on the other side.

 Republican Party presidential candidates, 2016
 
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