USA vs China and Rusia

[steve_bank]

Putin tries to paint a moral equivalence between his invasion of Ukraine and what America and allies did in Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is plenty to criticize the USA for, but there is also a fundamental difference between Russia and the USA and allies. Post WWII we did not enslave or exact tribute. We helped rebuild Japan and Europe including Germany. Today our past energies are free, independent with good economies.

NATO and the EU provided stability for unprecedented peace and economic growth.

South Korea is free and independent.

We did invade Iraq on what turned out to be a false pretext, but we did hand the people freedom and democracy, and helped rebuild the country, but they descended into factionalism and civil war.

We tried to turn a tribal culture in Afghanistan into a modern democracy and failed. Not enogh people stood up for their contry.

In contrast Russia sought to seize, control and dominate politically, socially, and economically. It carried through after the fall of the Soviet Union.

We do aggressively promote democracy and free market economics. Historicaly it leads to econmic growth and liberal freedoms.

Is the USA no better or different than China and Russia today?

All three want to make the world in their image.

Putin’s rationalization is America does what we are doing, so we are morally justifiedin expansionist acquisition and domination by militarily means.

Is there any difference between the USA and Russia/China?

I say yes of course.

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what did Ukraine do to Russia to provoke it?

I don't see anything.

 

[steve_bank]

The thread is about USA vs China and Russia in terms of what we promote and how we do it. Are we no better than Russia or China considering our militray actions post WWII?

There are other threads for Ukraine.

 

[skepticalbip]

And what did Ukraine do to Russia to provoke it?

I don't see anything.

From Putin's point of view, they kicked out his puppet president, Kravchuk, and replaced him with Zelenskyy. They then showed interest in joining the E.U. Either alone would really piss Putin off. Both together sent him into a rage.

In effect, Ukraine's crime was that they wanted less ties with Russia and closer ties with the E.U.

 

[Swammerdami]

Whatever fault one finds with the Cheney-Rove adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. did not indulge in wanton war crimes as Putin has.

And those seeking a parallel should recall the joyful celebrations in Baghdad and in Kabul when U.S. troops first liberated those peoples from oppressive regimes. Do you expect to see anything like that in Kyiv or Kharkiv?

 

[barbos]

From Putin's point of view, they kicked out his puppet president, Kravchuk

Are you sure about that?

 

[barbos]

Russia is much closer to USA than China culturally (you know that)
It's also much closer to USA than ukrainian nazi which you support.
The only reason you support them is because you are hell bent on solving your imaginary Russia Problem, that is any country which poses potential military threat is a problem. You don't care about democracy, democracy is just a tool to solving real problems for you. If You cared about democracy you would have bombed Saudi Arabia into stone age already.
You think once Russia is tamed or destroyed you can deal with everything including Ukraine and what is left of Russia.

That's basically neocon strategy. This is an extremely dangerous strategy but that's what it is.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Putin tries to paint a moral equivalence between his invasion of Ukraine and what America and allies did in Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is plenty to criticize the USA for, but there is also a fundamental difference between Russia and the USA and allies. Post WWII we did not enslave or exact tribute. We helped rebuild Japan and Europe including Germany. Today our past energies are free, independent with good economies.

NATO and the EU provided stability for unprecedented peace and economic growth.

South Korea is free and independent.

We did invade Iraq on what turned out to be a false pretext, but we did hand the people freedom and democracy, and helped rebuild the country, but they descended into factionalism and civil war.

We tried to turn a tribal culture in Afghanistan into a modern democracy and failed. Not enogh people stood up for their contry.

In contrast Russia sought to seize, control and dominate politically, socially, and economically. It carried through after the fall of the Soviet Union.

We do aggressively promote democracy and free market economics. Historicaly it leads to econmic growth and liberal freedoms.

Is the USA no better or different than China and Russia today?

All three want to make the world in their image.

Putin’s rationalization is America does what we are doing, so we are morally justifiedin expansionist acquisition and domination by militarily means.

Is there any difference between the USA and Russia/China?

I say yes of course.

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

The key difference of course is that US is a democracy while Russia and China are not. I don't know as much about Russia as I do China. China does care about making money and economic happiness. But they are really driven by control of resources and working with partners (other countries) that are dictatorships. From their point of view, it's difficult dealing with countries that have governments that constantly change. The US went from Obama, to Trump, to Biden! Not an easy transition for a country with a 40 year goal of gradually taking over resources and land. Obviously, Mad Vlad is adopting the same strategy. But he's just not very bright. He's turned all the countries except China and India against him. But even China is getting tired of it:

MSN

www.msn.com

Uh oh!

 

[Gospel]

Makes sense, the Moscow Stock Exchange has broken the Guinness World Records in market downtime.

 

[Hermit]

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

What? US foreign policy is motivated by bringing liberal values and democracy to other countries? I believe that the moment someone convinces me that Russia invades Ukraine in order to rid it of its Nazis. And China? Historically, it is more famous for that great wall it built to keep others out than for efforts to expand its sphere of influence, though it is now quietly developing a series of air force bases in the South China Sea and building a fleet of aircraft carriers. It has also spent a lot of money making some African and Asian countries economically dependent on it.

While I prefer to live in a liberal-democratic environment I don't trust any of the cunts to have my country's welfare in mind when they claim to take it under their benign wing. It's power politics all the way down. Expressions of high-faluting principles and values sugar-coat it.

 

[rousseau]

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

Promoting democracy is fine, but you can't get around China/Russia/U.S. all being states that, ultimately, need to protect their own interests. That's always going to entail some morally questionable decisions - some might be making more or less, but they're all making them.

The issue in Russia and China is Authoritarianism, but in China's case it allows them to pivot more quickly. The U.S. has a questionable trajectory because it's democracy is grid-locked and it's problems aren't getting resolved quickly enough.

 

[Elixir]

China is an insidious threat, Russia is an overt one.
China can be “trusted” to act in their own interest. We can see that in the way they’re giving Russia the side-eye right now.
Russia, OTOH, can’t be trusted to even do that. They have a madman doing his best to convince his populace to view everyone as an enemy. There are Nazis under every bed, NATOs in every closet and traitors to Mother Russia lurking in every Kremlin hallway. Killing them all and taking their land is fully justifiable by the (invented) history of Russia’s dominion over the planet. Putin will only be happy when he is the last living human on earth.
I agree with Lindsey graham that it’s time for some patriotic Russian to take him out.

 

[steve_bank]

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

Promoting democracy is fine, but you can't get around China/Russia/U.S. all being states that, ultimately, need to protect their own interests. That's always going to entail some morally questionable decisions - some might be making more or less, but they're all making them.

The issue in Russia and China is Authoritarianism, but in China's case it allows them to pivot more quickly. The U.S. has a questionable trajectory because it's democracy is grid-locked and it's problems aren't getting resolved quickly enough.

While authoritarian I believe the leadership does care about the people.The way I heard it put is that the leaders are fearful of a counter revolution and pays attention to how the people feel. The rise out of the Maoist ctastrophe is remarkable. In the 90s they resorted to firing squads for corruption. Some militray and political leaders were living extravagant lives.

China has positives and negatives, Russia is all negative.

 

[rousseau]

I've read a little bit on the history of Russia, not enough to be an expert, but typically once you sink into authoritarianism it's difficult to buck the trend. Once the state system set in place, some areas were economically viable, while others weren't. The winners stay the winners, and the losers pretty much stay the losers.

Russia has a long history of bad government which tends to sustain itself. China has always been a real world-power.

 

[steve_bank]

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

What? US foreign policy is motivated by bringing liberal values and democracy to other countries? I believe that the moment someone convinces me that Russia invades Ukraine in order to rid it of its Nazis. And China? Historically, it is more famous for that great wall it built to keep others out than for efforts to expand its sphere of influence, though it is now quietly developing a series of air force bases in the South China Sea and building a fleet of aircraft carriers. It has also spent a lot of money making some African and Asian countries economically dependent on it.

While I prefer to live in a liberal-democratic environment I don't trust any of the cunts to have my country's welfare in mind when they claim to take it under their benign wing. It's power politics all the way down. Expressions of high-faluting principles and values sugar-coat it.

It is not exactly a secret. The promotion of liberal democracy goes hand in hand with free markets, investments and economics. The resoning behind opening relations with China was that it represented a huge market for American goodsand manufacturing. Eventually they turned the table on us.

China has leaned to beat us at our own game. They are building foreign infrastructure to increase their economic influnce just as we did in the Cold War. China is not generally conferenced a military threat as is Russia.

As evidenced by our supply chain problems the threata is our manufacturing dependence on China.

 

[steve_bank]

I've read a little bit on the history of Russia, not enough to be an expert, but typically once you sink into authoritarianism it's difficult to buck the trend. Once the state system set in place, some areas were economically viable, while others weren't. The winners stay the winners, and the losers pretty much stay the losers.

Russia has a long history of bad government which tends to sustain itself. China has always been a real world-power.

Wy back I actualy read the tome History Of The Russian Revolution. Lenin came to belive that asudden chnage to communist economcs woud be too destructive. Communisst became the Vanguard who would pave the way for true communism in the future.

The story is when Stalin was dieing a crucial letter from Lenin was intercepted by Stalin that enabled him to sieze power instead of the the democratic movement. Speculation is Stalin may hav hastend Stalin's death.

As I see it it went from Marxist-Leninist to Stalinist dictatorship to the autorterian follow on Soviet leaders. Putin to me is Stalinist, just not as overtly brutal.

When Stain died Russia de-Stalinized. Statues were removed.

I read a book Diary Of A Revolutionist by a man name Kropotkin. He was born to Russian aristocracy and made a name for himself in science. He is consderd anarchist not communist.

He became radicalized. In his book he describes what life was like under the royals and aristocracy for the epeasants from his experience on his family farm.

The owner had';first night' privilege with a woman on her wedding night. Workers were not called by name, they were called by job like farmer or herder. If an aristocrat harmed or killed a peasant he could buy forgiveness from the church, an indukgence.

It is easy to see why the communist revolutionaries were anti relgion, it was used by the state to keep them down.

 

[steve_bank]

Putin tries to paint a moral equivalence between his invasion of Ukraine and what America and allies did in Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is plenty to criticize the USA for, but there is also a fundamental difference between Russia and the USA and allies. Post WWII we did not enslave or exact tribute. We helped rebuild Japan and Europe including Germany. Today our past energies are free, independent with good economies.

NATO and the EU provided stability for unprecedented peace and economic growth.

South Korea is free and independent.

We did invade Iraq on what turned out to be a false pretext, but we did hand the people freedom and democracy, and helped rebuild the country, but they descended into factionalism and civil war.

We tried to turn a tribal culture in Afghanistan into a modern democracy and failed. Not enogh people stood up for their contry.

In contrast Russia sought to seize, control and dominate politically, socially, and economically. It carried through after the fall of the Soviet Union.

We do aggressively promote democracy and free market economics. Historicaly it leads to econmic growth and liberal freedoms.

Is the USA no better or different than China and Russia today?

All three want to make the world in their image.

Putin’s rationalization is America does what we are doing, so we are morally justifiedin expansionist acquisition and domination by militarily means.

Is there any difference between the USA and Russia/China?

I say yes of course.

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

The key difference of course is that US is a democracy while Russia and China are not. I don't know as much about Russia as I do China. China does care about making money and economic happiness. But they are really driven by control of resources and working with partners (other countries) that are dictatorships. From their point of view, it's difficult dealing with countries that have governments that constantly change. The US went from Obama, to Trump, to Biden! Not an easy transition for a country with a 40 year goal of gradually taking over resources and land. Obviously, Mad Vlad is adopting the same strategy. But he's just not very bright. He's turned all the countries except China and India against him. But even China is getting tired of it:

MSN

www.msn.com

Uh oh!

I thought China was democratic or has democratic processes up to a certain level of government.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Putin tries to paint a moral equivalence between his invasion of Ukraine and what America and allies did in Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is plenty to criticize the USA for, but there is also a fundamental difference between Russia and the USA and allies. Post WWII we did not enslave or exact tribute. We helped rebuild Japan and Europe including Germany. Today our past energies are free, independent with good economies.

NATO and the EU provided stability for unprecedented peace and economic growth.

South Korea is free and independent.

We did invade Iraq on what turned out to be a false pretext, but we did hand the people freedom and democracy, and helped rebuild the country, but they descended into factionalism and civil war.

We tried to turn a tribal culture in Afghanistan into a modern democracy and failed. Not enogh people stood up for their contry.

In contrast Russia sought to seize, control and dominate politically, socially, and economically. It carried through after the fall of the Soviet Union.

We do aggressively promote democracy and free market economics. Historicaly it leads to econmic growth and liberal freedoms.

Is the USA no better or different than China and Russia today?

All three want to make the world in their image.

Putin’s rationalization is America does what we are doing, so we are morally justifiedin expansionist acquisition and domination by militarily means.

Is there any difference between the USA and Russia/China?

I say yes of course.

What should the role of the USA be in the world, should we aggressively promote our values? Liberal values.democratic

The key difference of course is that US is a democracy while Russia and China are not. I don't know as much about Russia as I do China. China does care about making money and economic happiness. But they are really driven by control of resources and working with partners (other countries) that are dictatorships. From their point of view, it's difficult dealing with countries that have governments that constantly change. The US went from Obama, to Trump, to Biden! Not an easy transition for a country with a 40 year goal of gradually taking over resources and land. Obviously, Mad Vlad is adopting the same strategy. But he's just not very bright. He's turned all the countries except China and India against him. But even China is getting tired of it:

MSN

www.msn.com

Uh oh!

I thought China was democratic or has democratic processes up to a certain level of government.

Well, it's a one party democracy. And the person at the top of the democracy very rarely changes. We can debate over and over again about who has a real democracy. But to me the key is change. Democratic governments are accountable to the people. If Russians had freedom of press and could vote, there's no way that they'd reelect Putin. Putin is starving their country, bankrupting them, turning the world against Russia. A healthy democracy has a steady change of government that mostly reflects the changing opinions of it's populace. (please note that I said mostly!)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what did Ukraine do to Russia to provoke it?

I don't see anything.

From Putin's point of view, they kicked out his puppet president, Kravchuk, and replaced him with Zelenskyy. They then showed interest in joining the E.U. Either alone would really piss Putin off. Both together sent him into a rage.

In effect, Ukraine's crime was that they wanted less ties with Russia and closer ties with the E.U.

Yeah, but none of that is justification for an invasion.

 

[skepticalbip]

And what did Ukraine do to Russia to provoke it?

I don't see anything.

From Putin's point of view, they kicked out his puppet president, Kravchuk, and replaced him with Zelenskyy. They then showed interest in joining the E.U. Either alone would really piss Putin off. Both together sent him into a rage.

In effect, Ukraine's crime was that they wanted less ties with Russia and closer ties with the E.U.

Yeah, but none of that is justification for an invasion.

I agree. But it is the reason Putin did it. He wanted control of the Ukraine and was loosing control.