Use of Force Education

[Jarhyn]

Of course they are. That's the only winning strategy if everyone involved has a gun.

Not exactly. It's the calculus for supremacy in a binary, but the use of force training I received, specifically as a member of a regular army, was around de-escalation and asymmetric settings wherein one was coming into existing conflicts in a side channel.

By studying use of force to come to such conclusions as you point out though, one will create a situation not unlike the one in "War Games", where the player can identify that the only way to win certain games is to never play them.

As such, this forms the basis for my declaration that if everyone was offered a good exploration of the philosophy of use of force, then far fewer people would seek to have or use available lethal force.

Look at what happens with comprehensive sex Ed: rather than folks rushing then to have sex, young folks actually more often defer the decision to have sex until much later and have far fewer unwanted pregnancies when they do.

I expect the same to be true with firearms: people who would otherwise drink the parental Kool aid that guns are fun, they would see the awful truth that guns can't save you and lead to a bloody violent world where the first person to decide to kill someone walks away

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

In Philadephia, a car load of thugs exit their car and start shooting people. Nine shot. Good guys with guns fails again. What do we do now NRA!?

 

[southernhybrid]

In Philadephia, a car load of thugs exit their car and start shooting people. Nine shot. Good guys with guns fails again. What do we do now NRA!?

This has been happening quite frequently in Atlanta and even a few times in my small city. It seems to be related to gang initiation. What happened to the good ole days when gangs only used knives? Knives kill but it's so much easier to gun down innocent people and children with guns.

I think children have enough to deal with these days in school without having to learn how to use guns. I certainly don't want my two grandchildren to be forced to learn to use guns. My son has never been a gun owner and he has no desire to own one. I think my husband taught him how to use one when we lived in an exurban area where we could target practice. He never seemed comfortable using a gun and I'm quite sure, he'd be against his children learning how to use guns in school.

There have been too many school shootings committed by very young, less than mature teenagers. I doubt that teaching kids who may already be a bit disturbed for one reason or another, how to use a gun, would be helpful. I do wish that gun ownership would at least be linked to a requirement for gun safety training. That may be the case in some states, but it's not in any state that I've lived in, with the possible exception of New Jersey, which has always had very strict gun laws.

The gun fetish is much worse now than it was during my childhood. I didn't know a single person who owned a gun when I was growing up in NJ. That's very different these days. Guns are more prevalent than ever before. Most Southern states have what is known as the gun show loophole. If you buy a gun from a dealer, they are supposed to do a background check. If you buy a gun from a private party, there is no requirement for the background check. It used to be required to be finger printed and background checked every five years in Georgia in order to obtain a concealed carry permit. But, thanks to our idiot governor, the requirements for concealed carry no longer require a permit or background check. That's sure to cut back on gun violence. /s

 

[ZiprHead]

In Philadephia, a car load of thugs exit their car and start shooting people. Nine shot. Good guys with guns fails again. What do we do now NRA!?

Polite society, they told us.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think children have enough to deal with these days in school without having to learn how to use guns

This is the same thing conservatives say about sex, racism, and other hard topics.

I think that in any world wherein these things are necessary realities, they should be expected to be educated about such realities from every angle.

I would like children to also be able to learn without having to also learn this, but as long as the second amendment is used as a weapon against measures to uphold peace that simply isn't a real option.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think children have enough to deal with these days in school without having to learn how to use guns

This is the same thing conservatives say about sex, racism, and other hard topics.

I think that in any world wherein these things are necessary realities, they should be expected to be educated about such realities from every angle.

I would like children to also be able to learn without having to also learn this, but as long as the second amendment is used as a weapon against measures to uphold peace that simply isn't a real option.

Well, I don't see any correlation between those other topics and forcing children to learn to use guns. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm afraid. To be honest, I don't really understand why you think it's a good idea to make children learn to use guns. I just asked my husband, who is a gun owner what he thought and he agreed with me. Plus, I seriously doubt this would ever happen. Do you really think this would ever get enough support to be put into law?

 

[Elixir]

Do you really think this would ever get enough support to be put into law?

Well, maybe... at the point of a gun.
Kids are better about it than teens. They don't yet think they're immortal.

Too hypothetical to answer the survey anyhow.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think children have enough to deal with these days in school without having to learn how to use guns

This is the same thing conservatives say about sex, racism, and other hard topics.

I think that in any world wherein these things are necessary realities, they should be expected to be educated about such realities from every angle.

I would like children to also be able to learn without having to also learn this, but as long as the second amendment is used as a weapon against measures to uphold peace that simply isn't a real option.

Well, I don't see any correlation between those other topics and forcing children to learn to use guns. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm afraid. To be honest, I don't really understand why you think it's a good idea to make children learn to use guns. I just asked my husband, who is a gun owner what he thought and he agreed with me. Plus, I seriously doubt this would ever happen, to be perfectly honest with you.

Forcing kids to learn how their genitals work before operating them is how we prevent kids from getting accidentally pregnant.

Forcing kids to learn how a weapon they will inevitably have interactions with beforehand is how we prevent kids from getting accidentally shot.

I think it's a good idea to teach kids about guns because dispelling the myths about gun ownership will prevent accidents, uninformed futzing, and wrong handling when they inevitably futz with their parents' weapons.

I have similar views about alcohol: learning early how to be responsible in a safe setting prevents drunken abuses.

Not to mention that even if the only requirement is to TAKE the classes, not to pass through to the end, the requirement would in fact expose every student too inept to be trusted with a weapon to the population.

The fact is, I think a lot fewer people would be about using weapons when they had at least been forced to think through all the aspects of such conflicts.

Shown all the realities to children so as to reveal that all guns do is empower the first to turn to violence, while thinking about how all this does is increase the violence in the system, I think fewer would in fact support the legality of guns.

In many ways, it puts a journey in front of the destination, a journey through conflict resolution and de-escalation, use of force philosophy, and other aspects between the budding psychopath teenager and effective weapons use, and will surround them with peers to know that if they DO decide to be a psychopath at the end of that journey, they will be surrounded with peers just as capable, and likely NOT psychopaths.

Will this ever happen? No. But if we can come to the realization that ignorance of guns and conflict only leads to ignorant gun use and conflict, maybe we can have less gun use and conflict.

We know that information about sex and sexuality leads to more responsible sex and sexuality. Why would we not assume the same for weapons and conflict?

 

[Elixir]

I agree with Jarhyn pretty much. The people around here who make me most nervous with guns aren't even the armed RW wackos, though we have more than one or two of them too... it's old people. In fact my wife came within about 20 feet of being accidentally shot by a senile old guy out in a pasture adjacent to our road/driveway. He was trying to sight in a hunting rifle, with the road in his line of fire. I think he was 93 and had been caretaking that land for decades, during which time it was actual wilderness bordering hay fields. Our presence was not something that it ever occurred to him to account for.
Meanwhile, the ones who make the least nervous with guns are like the rancher kids 'cross the river... I've seen them shoot and handle rifles and handguns since they were tots, and I trust them the most - more than I trust myself.
The basis for gun ownership here is generally about varmints, game animals and defense against bears. In the cities it's more about bad guys, real and imagined.

information about sex and sexuality leads to more responsible sex and sexuality. Why would we not assume the same for weapons

Because the level of harm from irresponsible sex is lower than the harm from irresponsible use of weapons? "What if we're just training up millions of little murderers? What then, huh?"

 

[steve_bank]

Afraid of old people with guns? You must be living in a small town in the middle of a cornfield. It would be funny if it did not trepresentt such ignorance.

In western Washington the gun violence is generally related to young drugs and crime IOW gangs, homelessness, and mentally ill. As part of outreach two Seattle police officers gave a talk in y building outlining what the regional issues are.

There have been a few cases of neighbor disputes ecxcaling to guns.

Ongoing cases of random drive by shootings of older people.

Therre are periodic shootings within my general neighborhood. Someone in my building had to duck for cover on the street when gunfore broke out near a homeless area. 12th and South Jackson in Seattle.

Just recently another case of a young violent offender released who stabbed two people to death. Which is why a voted for somebdy with actual law enforcemnt experience as country prosecutor.

Stating the obvious, education required to a certain age is backed by law. It is forced on us as kids to ensure a high rate of lieracy and basic knowledge.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course they are. That's the only winning strategy if everyone involved has a gun.

Not exactly. It's the calculus for supremacy in a binary, but the use of force training I received, specifically as a member of a regular army, was around de-escalation and asymmetric settings wherein one was coming into existing conflicts in a side channel.

By studying use of force to come to such conclusions as you point out though, one will create a situation not unlike the one in "War Games", where the player can identify that the only way to win certain games is to never play them.

As such, this forms the basis for my declaration that if everyone was offered a good exploration of the philosophy of use of force, then far fewer people would seek to have or use available lethal force.

Look at what happens with comprehensive sex Ed: rather than folks rushing then to have sex, young folks actually more often defer the decision to have sex until much later and have far fewer unwanted pregnancies when they do.

I expect the same to be true with firearms: people who would otherwise drink the parental Kool aid that guns are fun, they would see the awful truth that guns can't save you and lead to a bloody violent world where the first person to decide to kill someone walks away

Good point, I agree with you. Philosophy of the use of force belongs in school along with the laws about it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Forcing kids to learn how their genitals work before operating them is how we prevent kids from getting accidentally pregnant.

Forcing kids to learn how a weapon they will inevitably have interactions with beforehand is how we prevent kids from getting accidentally shot.

I do agree with basic gun safety training but the average person will never be in a situation they need to deal with a weapon. Thus your comparison falls down.

I think it's a good idea to teach kids about guns because dispelling the myths about gun ownership will prevent accidents, uninformed futzing, and wrong handling when they inevitably futz with their parents' weapons.

When they're young those weapons should always be locked up. Beyond that, they need enough safety training to know not to futz with the weapons, they don't need to know how to actually use them.

You seem to be lumping the safety training with operational training, I do not believe they are the same thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Afraid of old people with guns? You must be living in a small town in the middle of a cornfield. It would be funny if it did not trepresentt such ignorance.

Did you miss the situation? The guy was seriously violating one of the basic gun safety rules. They were afraid of accidents, not malice.

 

[Jarhyn]

I do agree with basic gun safety training but the average person will never be in a situation they need to deal with a weapon. Thus your comparison falls down

The position is in some respects rhetorical: the radical gun groping right does not agree with this position.

The rhetoric of the right is quite counter to this: "the world is dangerous, with criminals everywhere."

Moreover... You are wrong. Most people between the ages of 14-18 will be exposed to a gun, especially in rural settings, either by their own parents, or a friend.

When they're young those weapons should always be locked up.

They should. They are more likely to be if they learn at a reasonably young age why they should be and why they should be handled with respect.

Without this education, I do not believe they will, especially in the rural Midwest.

Beyond that, they need enough safety training to know not to futz with the weapons, they don't need to know how to actually use them.

The privilege of being taught how to use them is a powerful carrot to be gated behind learning the basics of safe handling and maintenance, and regurgitating the various philosophical basis for use of force in various philosophical frameworks, conflict avoidance and de-escalation.

If this was started one set of classes a year for three years, learning how to fire on a range would be the last class in the last year, and not even offered if the previous classes were failed and so repeated.

You seem to be lumping the safety training with operational training, I do not believe they are the same thing.

Operational training comes after safety training, but operational training is intended to serve a different purpose. Learning how to operate a weapon well does create more safety for those around the person who has learned it, but moreover, the gatedness of such training behind the philosophical and handling instructions will create a barrier to entry that is naturally low for the intelligent and naturally high for the selfish bullies.

Do you think bullies, psychopaths, and other forms of gangs would not see a world where everyone BUT then is trained how to use a weapon as they struggle to learn how to handle one? It create a harder target in the world and force folks to take second thought at such shortcuts, even if the reality is that the smarter students would in fact use what they learn to vote to disarm and step past the 2a.