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In the first link, I saw no specific actions against Venezuela. Can you please point them out, or what am I missing? The most specific claim I could make out was this:

In Venezuela this past week, Washington could not hijack the OAS but only its Secretary General, José Miguel Insulza, who supported the White House (and Venezuela opposition) demand for a “100 percent recount.”

So someone in the opposition in Venezuela who also views the US positively demands a recount? That's the best you've got? Seriously?

The second one is a little bit better, but it is essentially the same issue. The US government itself is now is hesitant to call Madero the legitimate president and demands a recount in somewhat close election that was characterized by bouts of violence.

And here's the exact statement from John Kerry, which the article you linked to omitted:

We think there ought to be a recount

Sounds like an opinion, hence the "we think" part. Not a demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/17/us-venezuela-election-recount-maduro

Why the fuck is the US with it's Florida recounts and Supreme Court deciding elections telling anybody anything?

These are the ways the US interferes into the business of other nations.

Why is the US interfering with anybody? Where does it get the right?
 
Two words - nuclear fucking weapons.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs[/YOUTUBE]


They can have all the democracy they want,
They can have a big democracy cake walk,
Right through the middle of Tienanmen square,
And it won't make a lick of difference,
Because we've got the bomb, okay?
 

In the first link, I saw no specific actions against Venezuela. Can you please point them out, or what am I missing? The most specific claim I could make out was this:

In Venezuela this past week, Washington could not hijack the OAS but only its Secretary General, José Miguel Insulza, who supported the White House (and Venezuela opposition) demand for a “100 percent recount.”

So someone in the opposition in Venezuela who also views the US positively demands a recount? That's the best you've got? Seriously?

The second one is a little bit better, but it is essentially the same issue. The US government itself is now is hesitant to call Madero the legitimate president and demands a recount in somewhat close election that was characterized by bouts of violence.

And here's the exact statement from John Kerry, which the article you linked to omitted:

We think there ought to be a recount

Sounds like an opinion, hence the "we think" part. Not a demand.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/17/us-venezuela-election-recount-maduro

Why the fuck is the US with it's Florida recounts and Supreme Court deciding elections telling anybody anything?

These are the ways the US interferes into the business of other nations.

Why is the US interfering with anybody? Where does it get the right?

I thought freedom of speech was a pretty fundamental right? Why don't we and through our elected representatives have a right to speak our minds and opinions on world affairs?
 
Why is the US interfering with anybody? Where does it get the right?

The goal of American foreign policy is to make the richest Americans even richer. It consistently does a fairly awesome job.

America. Fuck ya.
 
As the latest experiment in socialism disintegrates, it is approaching historical levels of farce. Almost any state, except Venezuela, would have gone to civil war long before now. This is new territory!

If this turns out to be true...well, what can one say?

http://www.abc.es/internacional/20150127/abci-venezuela-cabello-eeuu-201501262129.html

Powerline has a very short, but incomplete summery of this story:



If your read the original (translated) source, ABC International link, the story is even stranger.

Yup! I have to agree it is a pretty surreal story. Now tell us about the WMD. What do you care what goes on in Venezuela? Why is this surreal story so important to you? When it comes to corruption in government, the U.S. is at least on a par with anything the Venezuelans can think up and Wall Street surely surpasses that. Salazar scurries out of Venezuela and Snowden ran for cover here. It is a well known fact that Venezuela and Cuba are allies. This is not news. Your right wing propaganda is pitiful. You just seem to love to talk about rats deserting sinking ships and indulging in slurs against any and every socialist leader. You pretend to be in posession of a glorious capitalist crystal ball that dictates the fall of all socialist governments.:slowclap:

The difference is the US works. (As an analogy let's say the US is neurotically diseased, needs professional help, but can manage to hold on, working, relating and surviving. Venezuela is psychotically diseased, and cannot manage to protect itself from its own inner demons and will probably die of starvation as it is currently eating sand as it if were delicacies, and therefore requires internment in a psychiatric hospital.)

The US may have its own tumors of corruption, but it's going from strength to strength these days.
 
What explains the problems in capitalist Haiti and Honduras and Guatemala?
Why does capitalism suck so bad there?
A breakdown of individual property rights and the rule of law.
"Rights" are meaningless without force to back them up, and that includes property rights. Likewise for "rule of law". In fact, "rule of law" is nothing but government jackboots on everybody's neck. Equality before law seems very socialist. Having government protect property rights is handing over to the government the right to decide who owns what. Corruption, however, is very capitalist -- it's buying the favors of politicians and officials.

Unless you wish to try to create a utopia of virtuous anarchists. What's stopping you? You can go to some Third World country and pay its leaders to give you and your friends pretty much complete autonomy over some land.
 
A breakdown of individual property rights and the rule of law.
"Rights" are meaningless without force to back them up, and that includes property rights. Likewise for "rule of law". In fact, "rule of law" is nothing but government jackboots on everybody's neck. Equality before law seems very socialist. Having government protect property rights is handing over to the government the right to decide who owns what. Corruption, however, is very capitalist -- it's buying the favors of politicians and officials.

Unless you wish to try to create a utopia of virtuous anarchists. What's stopping you? You can go to some Third World country and pay its leaders to give you and your friends pretty much complete autonomy over some land.

I like the little song Bilby posted. The problem, perhaps a fatal one, is well expressed in the song. There seem to be mindsets that are manufactured for fun and profit that tend to pervert entire societies on both sides of most conflicts, when most of the people involved are just struggling to get along and get all the stuff they feel they deserve.

Venezuela...suffering from reliance on a petrochemical economy...and Saudi manipulation of worldwide oil prices. Their suffering is NOT SOCIALISM IN ACTION, but the actions of ASSHOLES.
 
"Rights" are meaningless without force to back them up, and that includes property rights. Likewise for "rule of law". In fact, "rule of law" is nothing but government jackboots on everybody's neck. Equality before law seems very socialist. Having government protect property rights is handing over to the government the right to decide who owns what. Corruption, however, is very capitalist -- it's buying the favors of politicians and officials.

Unless you wish to try to create a utopia of virtuous anarchists. What's stopping you? You can go to some Third World country and pay its leaders to give you and your friends pretty much complete autonomy over some land.

I like the little song Bilby posted. The problem, perhaps a fatal one, is well expressed in the song. There seem to be mindsets that are manufactured for fun and profit that tend to pervert entire societies on both sides of most conflicts, when most of the people involved are just struggling to get along and get all the stuff they feel they deserve.

Venezuela...suffering from reliance on a petrochemical economy...and Saudi manipulation of worldwide oil prices. Their suffering is NOT SOCIALISM IN ACTION, but the actions of ASSHOLES.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

As for Saudi's manipulating oil prices, how is that different from OPEC doing the same thing, which is really the only reason why Venezuela could get away with its basket case economy?
 
I can't predict that printing currency to pay your bills will cause inflation?

The US does it all the time and it does not cause inflation.

When you print money in excess of the demand for money you get inflation, no matter who does it. It does cause inflation in the US.

It's not the printing per se, but the ratio of money in circulation (note that this includes the substantial multiplier effect of money moving around--which is why QE hasn't caused inflation--it's simply offsetting the slowed movement of money) to goods that matters. The inflation rate is basically the change in this ratio.

Venezuela has 4 different exchange rates, each of which has a bearing to a different aspect of "reality" and this is something the Venezuelan government is trying to control. They are working towards the goal of one exchange rate.

The only way you have multiple exchange rates is due to government intervention, in effect stealing from those who want to move money across borders.

But only if prices fall below costs will you definitely see shortages. Otherwise you may or may not. It depends on the makeup of the companies involved.

Which is exactly what's happening in Venezuela.

I can't predict that nationalizing hundreds of businesses will cause investment to dry up and international businesses to flee?

It depends on the kind of business and how the business operates.

Many capitalist business work with only one goal in mind, maximize share holder return. They are organized around that principle. This principle also means minimize worker return and customer return to as low as possible.

If companies were organized around the principle of maximizing worker and customer return then we would see them behave differently in many ways.

A system built entirely around maximizing shareholder return will look nothing like a system built around maximizing worker return.

What you are missing is your fantasy world doesn't provide any incentive for investment--thus no new businesses.

You, on the other hand, can't even describe what sort of weapons Joe Biden is using in this economic war he is waging.

Biden uses the weapons at his disposal which are diplomatic and economic.

He works to isolate Venezuela in both arenas.

Venezuela is not considered a free nation able to choose a free path. It is an enemy, not doing the proper things according to the Big Leader up North.

And as an enemy any attack possible is justified.

1) You're still not describing what he's doing.

2) What we are seeing is exactly what we would expect to see with no intervention. Thus where's the evidence of intervention??

- - - Updated - - -

Biden uses the weapons at his disposal which are diplomatic and economic.

He works to isolate Venezuela in both arenas.

Venezuela is not considered a free nation able to choose a free path. It is an enemy, not doing the proper things according to the Big Leader up North.

And as an enemy any attack possible is justified.

Can you provide specifics and credible sources rather than bald assertions and platitudes?

1) Socialism works.

2) Venezuela is failing.

3) Venezuela is socialist.

4) Therefore the failure is due to outside intervention. What more evidence do you need?


(Not that #1 or #3 is true, despite what his bible says.)

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that you are focusing on "socialist" and ignoring everything else.

Most of these were Soviet-bloc countries. No Soviet-bloc country was doing what the people needed. I've been in a fair number--everything I saw was fucked up.

As for clandestine operations in Iran--you are talking about a country that started out by an attack on the US and which has attacked us multiple times since. We would be grossly negligent if we didn't have spies there.

Have you ever heard of Kermit Roosevelt and his U.S. sponsored murder of the democratically elected president of Iran in 1953? What some people will do for oil.:sadyes: Follow up the murder and coups with decades of U.S. installed Shah with his repression and oil company loyalties and you have the proper recipe for making of an enemy. We need to stop being a nation of Kermit Roosevelts and start being a nation motivated by peace. You seem to think this animosity the county feels toward the U.S. is directed by its leadership and at the people of the U.S. It is not. We opened the door to the Supreme Leader, a religious autocrat who will not allow the CIA to kill him. You get in Iran what Kermit and his buddies created until you CHANGE YOUR POLICIES. That is what this is all about. The people of Iran have the same attitude as you have toward "the great satan." So step aside and let others who are not so threatening and militaristic represent us in the region and things would settle down.

The same thing with Guantanamo. That country is not ours to dictate to or to rule. You always bring a kind of authoritarian attitude to these discussions that is as abrasive as it is uninformed.:rolleyes:

We have almost always had the opportunity to cooperate with these countries and cooperate with them. When you start out wishing them ill and wanting to crush them, you get the situations we see and deal with everyday.:eek:

That "democratically elected president" was Russian-backed.

Once again you are mixing up economics with politics.
 
Simon Nobile, 72, runs the Capri pasta factory in the capital Caracas, which was founded by his Italian-born father in 1940. Capri's two plants crank out 11 million pounds of pasta per month.

They could produce nearly twice that much. However, Nobile says a government policy designed to help the poor forces him to sell half of his inventory for just five cents a pound.

"There is no incentive because price controls mean that you lose money. So the more you produce, the more money you lose," he says.

Is that the real reason why he is only producing half, or is he taking orders from Joe Biden? Hmmm, the mystery deepens.

The story continues:

Another headache is securing the grain to make pasta, says Angie Mendible who works in Capri's import department. Venezuela does not produce wheat.

Even so, Mendible says that each time the company wants to buy a shipment from the U.S. or Canada, it must first apply for a government certificate stating that ... Venezuela does not produce wheat.

"It takes 35 days to get this certificate," Mendible says. "Then we have to apply for permission to buy U.S. dollars. That can take another 90 days.

...

But Ismael Perez, president of the Venezuelan Chamber of Industries, says government intervention has backfired because very few top officials have any business experience. He recalled a meeting to deal with a recent toilet paper shortage caused by distribution snafus.

Instead of addressing the bottlenecks, Perez said, a government minister proposed building toilet paper factories in each of Venezuela's 32 states.

Other analysts say Maduro has an authoritarian streak and wants to control all sectors of Venezuelan society.

But the resulting bureaucracy is ruining the economy, says Jorge Redmond, president of Chocolates El Rey, which produces and exports chocolate.

"When Chavez came to power there were four steps one needed to take in order to export a container of chocolate. Today it's 90 steps," he says. "And there's 19 different ministries involved in this series of permissions. It's a mess."

Redmond claims the government is out to punish the private sector because many business leaders, himself included, support Venezuela's political opposition.

"In other countries, the governments have a sort of an alliance with the private sector to create a process of development," he says. "That doesn't exist because there is a complete mistrust on the part of the government toward the private sector. We're just have to be watched."

Back at Capri, Nobile tells me that after a half century making pasta, he's never seen a tougher business climate. But at least Capri is still standing. There used to be 40 pasta companies in Venezuela. Now there are only five.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else
 
Is that the real reason why he is only producing half, or is he taking orders from Joe Biden? Hmmm, the mystery deepens.

The story continues:

Another headache is securing the grain to make pasta, says Angie Mendible who works in Capri's import department. Venezuela does not produce wheat.

Even so, Mendible says that each time the company wants to buy a shipment from the U.S. or Canada, it must first apply for a government certificate stating that ... Venezuela does not produce wheat.

"It takes 35 days to get this certificate," Mendible says. "Then we have to apply for permission to buy U.S. dollars. That can take another 90 days.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else

You misunderstand.

It is the secret US policies, not Joe's policies that are at work here.

And they are only part of the picture.

If these anecdotes are true it sounds as if the policies are keeping the businesses small. To me that is good.

But what also has to happen is more businesses need to grow. This takes stimulation of growth. You need some Keynesian spending to stimulate growth.

I think some of that is happening but obviously more is needed.
 
Is that the real reason why he is only producing half, or is he taking orders from Joe Biden? Hmmm, the mystery deepens.

The story continues:



http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else

You misunderstand.

It is the secret US policies, not Joe's policies that are at work here.

And they are only part of the picture.

If these anecdotes are true it sounds as if the policies are keeping the businesses small. To me that is good.

But what also has to happen is more businesses need to grow. This takes stimulation of growth. You need some Keynesian spending to stimulate growth.

I think some of that is happening but obviously more is needed.

They are not only keeping them smaller, but they are driving them out of business all together. From 40 larger businesses to 5 much smaller businesses. And that is good? Are you serious?

There is already tons of Keynesian spending. So much in fact that it is producing 60%+ annual inflation, unsustainable budget deficits, and a highly probable debt default from all the borrowing that took place to support the spending. Therefore, WTF are you talking about?
 
If these anecdotes are true it sounds as if the policies are keeping the businesses small. To me that is good.

But what also has to happen is more businesses need to grow. This takes stimulation of growth. You need some Keynesian spending to stimulate growth.

I think some of that is happening but obviously more is needed.

Wow. More people going hungry = good. Better that there is less than that a capitalist makes a profit. I guess my evil capitalist eyes are incapable of seeing the folly of my ways.
 
You misunderstand.

It is the secret US policies, not Joe's policies that are at work here.

And they are only part of the picture.

If these anecdotes are true it sounds as if the policies are keeping the businesses small. To me that is good.

But what also has to happen is more businesses need to grow. This takes stimulation of growth. You need some Keynesian spending to stimulate growth.

I think some of that is happening but obviously more is needed.

They are not only keeping them smaller, but they are driving them out of business all together. From 40 larger businesses to 5 much smaller businesses. And that is good? Are you serious?

There is already tons of Keynesian spending. So much in fact that it is producing 60%+ annual inflation, unsustainable budget deficits, and a highly probable debt default from all the borrowing that took place to support the spending. Therefore, WTF are you talking about?

You think any kind of spending is Keynesian spending.

What Venezuela is doing is basically just putting a tax on these companies.

A tax that can't be avoided because it is a tax in goods.

This is a very frightening thing to Big Business.

A tax that can't be avoided.
 
They are not only keeping them smaller, but they are driving them out of business all together. From 40 larger businesses to 5 much smaller businesses. And that is good? Are you serious?

There is already tons of Keynesian spending. So much in fact that it is producing 60%+ annual inflation, unsustainable budget deficits, and a highly probable debt default from all the borrowing that took place to support the spending. Therefore, WTF are you talking about?

You think any kind of spending is Keynesian spending.

What Venezuela is doing is basically just putting a tax on these companies.

A tax that can't be avoided because it is a tax in goods.

This is a very frightening thing to Big Business.

A tax that can't be avoided.

Your statements above are incoherent. I can't make any sense of them.
 
You think any kind of spending is Keynesian spending.

What Venezuela is doing is basically just putting a tax on these companies.

A tax that can't be avoided because it is a tax in goods.

This is a very frightening thing to Big Business.

A tax that can't be avoided.

Your statements above are incoherent. I can't make any sense of them.

What's the difference between telling a company it has to sell a certain amount of product at a certain price and a tax?
 
Your statements above are incoherent. I can't make any sense of them.

What's the difference between telling a company it has to sell a certain amount of product at a certain price and a tax?

A tax is charged based on income or as a percent of the price and remitted to the government. Forcing a company to sell a product at a certain price is what's called a price ceiling. No money is remitted to the government. It is not based on profit or anything relating to the underlying economics of the business.

Isn't it pretty self explanatory?
 
What's the difference between telling a company it has to sell a certain amount of product at a certain price and a tax?

A tax is charged based on income or as a percent of the price and remitted to the government. Forcing a company to sell a product at a certain price is what's called a price ceiling. No money is remitted to the government. It is not based on profit or anything relating to the underlying economics of the business.

Isn't it pretty self explanatory?

I didn't say "sell all product at a set price".

I said, sell "some".

There is no difference between telling a company it must sell a certain amount of product at a set price and a tax.

It is merely another method to tax a business.
 
Is that the real reason why he is only producing half, or is he taking orders from Joe Biden? Hmmm, the mystery deepens.

The story continues:

Another headache is securing the grain to make pasta, says Angie Mendible who works in Capri's import department. Venezuela does not produce wheat.

Even so, Mendible says that each time the company wants to buy a shipment from the U.S. or Canada, it must first apply for a government certificate stating that ... Venezuela does not produce wheat.

"It takes 35 days to get this certificate," Mendible says. "Then we have to apply for permission to buy U.S. dollars. That can take another 90 days.

...

But Ismael Perez, president of the Venezuelan Chamber of Industries, says government intervention has backfired because very few top officials have any business experience. He recalled a meeting to deal with a recent toilet paper shortage caused by distribution snafus.

Instead of addressing the bottlenecks, Perez said, a government minister proposed building toilet paper factories in each of Venezuela's 32 states.

Other analysts say Maduro has an authoritarian streak and wants to control all sectors of Venezuelan society.

But the resulting bureaucracy is ruining the economy, says Jorge Redmond, president of Chocolates El Rey, which produces and exports chocolate.

"When Chavez came to power there were four steps one needed to take in order to export a container of chocolate. Today it's 90 steps," he says. "And there's 19 different ministries involved in this series of permissions. It's a mess."

Redmond claims the government is out to punish the private sector because many business leaders, himself included, support Venezuela's political opposition.

"In other countries, the governments have a sort of an alliance with the private sector to create a process of development," he says. "That doesn't exist because there is a complete mistrust on the part of the government toward the private sector. We're just have to be watched."

Back at Capri, Nobile tells me that after a half century making pasta, he's never seen a tougher business climate. But at least Capri is still standing. There used to be 40 pasta companies in Venezuela. Now there are only five.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...venezuela-is-now-poor-in-most-everything-else

NPR? They are a puppet of the US government. Joe Biden probably wrote that drivel himself.
 
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