Venezuela's president admits economy has failed

[untermensche]

It is possible somebody could submit to another person voluntarily.

But most people don't submit voluntarily to being ripped off in some dictatorship.

They simply have no choice.

One dictator here to rip you off and another one over there.

The capitalists have turned this on it's head, as they turn everything on it's head, and pretend they are doing you the favor by stealing from you.

Dictatorship is all there is for most people. A life of following orders like a dog.

For the talented monarchy was nice too.

 

[dismal]

For the talented monarchy was nice too.

Yeah the catch with freedom to enter voluntary transactions is that you generally have something to offer that someone else values to get them to trade with you.

This is particularly tough on those with little of value to offer anyone. I can see why that would cause the most useless among us to become advocates of socialism for purely selfish reasons.

 

[untermensche]

For the talented monarchy was nice too.

Yeah the catch with freedom to enter voluntary transactions is that you generally have something to offer that someone else values to get them to trade with you.

You can have something to offer and still submit against your will to an immoral dictatorship.

The key is you have to submit to the system of dictators and the dictated to. No matter what your talents are.

You have no other choice.

Best to try to be a dictator in such a system.

Which is why I condemn the morality of dictatorial systems more than just attack asshole dictators.

This is particularly tough on those with little of value to offer anyone.

The vast majority of people educated in the US.

Your idea is to make it as tough as possible on them.

 

[Axulus]

The Anarchists in Spain had more productive factories than the capitalists. They had innovation.

They did not live an inferior life materially.

In terms of human freedom and dignity they were miles ahead of those stuck in the mentality of the dictator.

That primitive human mentality that must be overcome to have any real freedom.

The rat race to enrich the dictators is not freedom.

When you steal your means of production things will look good for a while.

In capitalism the equipment is paid for by stealing from workers.

The workers already bought the equipment.

Your love of and excuses for dictatorship is noted once again however.

As long as it is the good dictators stealing from workers you are just fine with it.

People like you used to sing praises to the King and claimed we could do nothing without the King or without stealing from the King.

Your kind is always about 200 years behind the times.

You couldn't be expected to see the future. You can't see the present.

It's only theft if you view private property as illegitimate. The whole basis of your proclamations about dictatorship also rest on this as it is the owners of the company property "dictating" who may use that property and under what terms.

Every society that has fundamentally done away with private property or greatly weakened it using force (arbitrary confiscation, government control of all business and other property), has lead to massive human misery as we have to point out to you time and time again.

 

[untermensche]

Equipment is a cost.

Not an excuse for theft.

Having equipment means that there is less to pay everyone but it is not an excuse for some with all the power to steal from all without any real power.

 

[Axulus]

Equipment is a cost.

Not an excuse for theft.

Having equipment means that there is less to pay everyone but it is not an excuse for some with all the power to steal from all without any real power.

If I own the equipment by buying it in a legitimate transaction (or given rights over it in a lease or similar transaction from the title holder), and I offer you $x per hour to work for me using the equipment, that is my right given private property laws. I am the dictator over who uses the equipment and how, and you must negotiate with me if you want to work using that equipment (or if you want to buy it). The freedom part comes in the fact that you can choose to work for other equipment owners, or find other equipment workers and band together to purchase or lease the equipment and set your own terms, or find other lines of work. I, as the equipment owner, have to offer you something better than your alternatives to get you to voluntarily agree to work with my equipment, something completely absent in a true dictatorship with a master/slave relationship (where your alternative options do not matter one iota).

To call this illegitimate or "theft" is to say private property rights/laws for equipment should be abolished.

 

[untermensche]

The only reason you can hire somebody to steal from is because they have limited options. They have no option to not be stolen from.

Not because it is right.

In human dynamics some seek to dominate others and use others as tools.

This should be treated as a sickness and outlawed.

 

[Axulus]

The only reason you can hire somebody to steal from is because they have limited options. They have no option to not be stolen from.

Not because it is right.

In human dynamics some seek to dominate others and use others as tools.

This should be seen as a sickness.

It is not theft because I own the equipment and therefore get to be dictator over that equipment.

All options are limited. No one gets infinite options at whatever terms they want. The question is are the options of your typical individual better living in a society that has strong private property rights/laws vs one that has weak to no private property laws. The answer is an unambiguous "yes".

 

[untermensche]

The only reason you can hire somebody to steal from is because they have limited options. They have no option to not be stolen from.

Not because it is right.

In human dynamics some seek to dominate others and use others as tools.

This should be seen as a sickness.

It is not theft because I own the equipment and therefore get to be dictator over that equipment.

All options are limited. No one has infinite options. The question is are the options of your typical individual better living in a society that has strong private property rights. The answer is an unambiguous "yes".

You own the equipment as part of a scheme to steal.

It gives you no right.

In a system where people had choices nobody would submit to your theft.

 

[Axulus]

The only reason you can hire somebody to steal from is because they have limited options. They have no option to not be stolen from.

Not because it is right.

In human dynamics some seek to dominate others and use others as tools.

This should be seen as a sickness.

It is not theft because I own the equipment and therefore get to be dictator over that equipment.

All options are limited. No one has infinite options. The question is are the options of your typical individual better living in a society that has strong private property rights. The answer is an unambiguous "yes".

You own the equipment as part of a scheme to steal.

It gives you no right.

In a system where people had choices nobody would submit to your theft.

Why wouldn't they if I made a good enough offer?

Once again, you keep using that word "theft". Will you unambiguously state that you believe private property is theft, to clear the record? Am I correct in that you believe private property, which allows people to be dictators over that property, is the root of all problems?

 

[untermensche]

You own the equipment as part of a scheme to steal.

It gives you no right.

In a system where people had choices nobody would submit to your theft.

Why wouldn't they if I made a good enough offer?

Once again, you keep using that word "theft". Will you unambiguously state that you believe private property is theft, to clear the record?

If they a choice to work in a democratic workplace and share in all the revenues why would they work for a dictator for a fraction of that?

 

[untermensche]

Theft is using labor to create revenue but paying that labor in no relation to the revenue.

A market wage is theft.

The capitalist system as it exists is a system designed around subjugation and theft.

That is how it works.

 

[Axulus]

You own the equipment as part of a scheme to steal.

It gives you no right.

In a system where people had choices nobody would submit to your theft.

Why wouldn't they if I made a good enough offer?

Once again, you keep using that word "theft". Will you unambiguously state that you believe private property is theft, to clear the record?

If they a choice to work in a democratic workplace and share in all the revenues why would they work for a dictator for a fraction of that?

Maybe I can offer them more because I have developed a great system for generating revenues. I know all the buyers and have the newest equipment in place and can immediately offer better per hour payment. The co-op down the road is struggling and has older equipmet and therefore the revenue share is not as high as what I can offer. I also assessed this person's ability better than the co-op, I think they are more valuable using my equipment than the co-op thinks they are using the co-op's equipment.

Also, maybe the co-op is a bit bloated, has too many workers. I run a leaner operation and have lower costs.

Lots of possibilities.

 

[Axulus]

We see, time and time again, weak private property rights/laws often require a strong state to control and/or confiscate the property from its previous owners, which leads to corruption and authoritatianism, not to mention fierce opposition (which the state will need to crack down upon to maintain its power). Strong private property laws are therefore a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for political freedom as well.

This is why Chavez (and his supporters) deserve the bulk of the blame for Venezuela. He significantly weakened private property laws and built up an authoritarian state to enact it. It inevitably got more and more authoritarian and corrupt and weakened political freedoms as well. The state also mismanaged the property it confiscated and contributed to economic ruin (as is easily predicted by economic facts and theories).

Weak to no private property laws can work on a small scale with a tight knit group (akin to a family) but break down at the societal level.

I want to distinguish capitalist countries with strong private property rights (the US, the EU, etc) from those with weak private property rights (Haiti, El Salvador, Ecuador, etc) since you use "capitalist" as a catch all for any country with any sort of private property rights whatsoever (weak or strong).

I argue that strong private property rights are necessary for political freedom and economic prosperity.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There is nothing voluntary about the current system.

Few have any choice. They either submit to the whims of some dictator or go without anything.

Some confuse submission with a free choice.

The people who chose the current system chose it because they wanted to dominate others and steal from them.

It is a sick immorality the very lost call freedom.

But we're all victims of the dictatorial whims of physics. Your body dictatorially dictates that you keep breathing and eat food. Your emotions dictatorially dictate that you make friends with people. The stuff within your control is not that much

 

[angelo]

There is nothing voluntary about the current system.

Few have any choice. They either submit to the whims of some dictator or go without anything.

Some confuse submission with a free choice.

The people who chose the current system chose it because they wanted to dominate others and steal from them.

It is a sick immorality the very lost call freedom.

I suppose you would say that Trump or May or any other democratically elected Western leader is a dictator?

 

[angelo]

Equipment is a cost.

Not an excuse for theft.

Having equipment means that there is less to pay everyone but it is not an excuse for some with all the power to steal from all without any real power.

Equipment is bought with profits, which to you seems a dirty word. When a corporation makes a profit it's usually distributed to mum and dad shareholders who then spend it creating more wealth and employment. But you seem to lack any sense of the workings of a democracy or capitalism.

 

[untermensche]

There is nothing voluntary about the current system.

Few have any choice. They either submit to the whims of some dictator or go without anything.

Some confuse submission with a free choice.

The people who chose the current system chose it because they wanted to dominate others and steal from them.

It is a sick immorality the very lost call freedom.

I suppose you would say that Trump or May or any other democratically elected Western leader is a dictator?

That such a horror as Trump could be elected shows how fucked up accepting a system of dictators is.

The mere acceptance of dictators in our midst fucks everything up.

It corrupts everything.

Just like slavery corrupted the society that accepted it.

- - - Updated - - -

Equipment is a cost.

Not an excuse for theft.

Having equipment means that there is less to pay everyone but it is not an excuse for some with all the power to steal from all without any real power.

Equipment is bought with profits, which to you seems a dirty word. When a corporation makes a profit it's usually distributed to mum and dad shareholders who then spend it creating more wealth and employment. But you seem to lack any sense of the workings of a democracy or capitalism.

Dictators deciding where the profits made by others go is a form of corruption.

It is evil.

It is theft.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Equipment is a cost.

Not an excuse for theft.

Having equipment means that there is less to pay everyone but it is not an excuse for some with all the power to steal from all without any real power.

Yeah, it's not an excuse for theft--yet you advocate stealing it rather than paying for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only reason you can hire somebody to steal from is because they have limited options. They have no option to not be stolen from.

Not because it is right.

In human dynamics some seek to dominate others and use others as tools.

This should be treated as a sickness and outlawed.

Plenty of people would prefer to be employees.

The thing is, an independent contractor must spend time locating clients--and just because they're good at their profession doesn't mean they are good at the social aspects of getting clients.

Consider a basic rule of thumb of working as a contractor: Your hourly rate should be at a minimum twice what you would get as a salary for doing the same thing. This is the threshold to simply break even assuming no special costs of being a contractor.

You see a 50% theft, the sensible person understands that not all hours are productive.

- - - Updated - - -

Theft is using labor to create revenue but paying that labor in no relation to the revenue.

A market wage is theft.

The capitalist system as it exists is a system designed around subjugation and theft.

That is how it works.

I think your obsession with "theft" is a case of projection.

You know your approach is stealing.