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Vermont prioritises BIPOC over white people for COVID-19 vaccine

Metaphor said:
Do you, ZiprHead?

Since the evidence shows that men are 2.4x more likely to die from COVID compared to women, should not Vermont also include men as a priority group ahead of women?

Yes. But still behind BIPOC.

I take it you're giving up on the constitutional argument you started out with.

Metaphor said:
What argument? It was a question. Is the State's discrimination by race in this scenario against either the US or Vermont Constitutions? It isn't some kind of attempted slam dunk gotcha, it's a genuine question.

So what do you think now that you have an answer?

Metaphor said:
But also: why should men be behind BIPOC? The death rate ratio of men:women appears to be about the same as BIPOC (excluding Asian):white.

No, it's not. You're comparing apples and oranges.
 
So what do you think now that you have an answer?

...where? In what post is my question about the Constitutionality answered?

No, it's not. You're comparing apples and oranges.

I'm comparing death rate ratios. If it is justified to serve older people over younger people (it is), and if it justified to serve BIPOC ahead of white people, then by the same reasoning it is justified to serve men ahead of women. And you are the one who said BIPOC should be prioritised ahead of men, but you did not justify this statement. What is the evidence that that should be the case that does not rely on the same 'apples and oranges' comparison that allows older people to be justified ahead of younger people?
 
So what do you think now that you have an answer?

...where? In what post is my question about the Constitutionality answered?

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?23720-Vermont-prioritises-BIPOC-over-white-people-for-COVID-19-vaccine&p=889364&viewfull=1#post889364

Or do you believe medical triage is unconstitutional?

No, it's not. You're comparing apples and oranges.

I'm comparing death rate ratios. If it is justified to serve older people over younger people (it is), and if it justified to serve BIPOC ahead of white people, then by the same reasoning it is justified to serve men ahead of women. And you are the one who said BIPOC should be prioritised ahead of men, but you did not justify this statement. What is the evidence that that should be the case that does not rely on the same 'apples and oranges' comparison that allows older people to be justified ahead of younger people?

You're comparing white men to all black people instead of comparing white men to black men.
 

Your post does not speak to my question. You've given a reason why BIPOC are prioritised; you did nothing to explain to me how that makes prioritising by race Constitutional.

Now, because nobody answered my question, I duckduckgoed it myself and found one article saying it probably is not Constitutional.

You're comparing white men to all black people instead of comparing white men to black men.

What? No. I wasn't doing that.

The stat I got about men's death rate was compared to women. That is, it was men of any race compared to women of any race. Men are 2.4x more likely to die from COVID.

BIPOC (excluding Asians) are (from the link you posted) up to 2.4x more likely to die from COVID than white people.

Unfortunately (as is the design of risk ratios), the 'reference' group is different for each scenario, but then so is the 'age' reference group (5-17 year olds) different to the 'race' reference group (white people of all ages and sexes) different to the 'sex' reference group (women of all ages and races).

Black men almost certainly have a higher risk of dying from COVID compared to white men, but I am not suggesting prioritising white men over black men. I am suggesting prioritising men over women using the same reasoning as all the other 'priority' groups.

I also think the State discriminating by age in distributing bennies (benefits) is justified and practical and necessary in many scenarios, in a way that the State discriminating by race and sex is not. So, I would not want the State to discriminate by race or sex unless the risk rate ratios were as extraordinary as the age banding ratios. And in this particular scenario, Vermont's rules means a healthy 45 year old who is white is lower priority than a healthy 17 year old who is black, even though the former is dozens of times more likely to die from COVID.

And this really matters. You can't get a private COVID vaccination. The state of Vermont holds all the power.
 
Seeing that Vermont is probably around 95% white (looked it up, 93%), this isn’t a bad idea at at all.

What is the deal with all the bed wetting by some people? They root around for news like this like a pig for truffles. They find a story on their White Rage news aggregator and start pissing their pants and snorting.

Oh, I have to share this with everyone! This’ll prove white people really are the victims here.

So discrimination is fine so long as the advantaged group is small??
 
I am not saying I am for it or against it.

BUT I wonder why wasn't this an issue over age with all the old people getting vaccinated first?

I mean absolutely everywhere.

No one was screaming about senior citizens, "See, I told you they were taking over!!!11!1 And the Democrats are helping them!"

The reason is that it's much more dangerous in old people.

The racial pattern, however, isn't demonstrated because you need to control for lifestyle and occupational factors. A lot of those BIPOCs are working in places like retail where the risk is high.
 
Seeing that Vermont is probably around 95% white (looked it up, 93%), this isn’t a bad idea at at all.

What is the deal with all the bed wetting by some people? They root around for news like this like a pig for truffles. They find a story on their White Rage news aggregator and start pissing their pants and snorting.

Oh, I have to share this with everyone! This’ll prove white people really are the victims here.

So discrimination is fine so long as the advantaged group is small??

Discrimination is wrong. This isn’t discrimination. Whites in Vermont are not at any risk of not getting immunized.
 
I am not saying I am for it or against it.

BUT I wonder why wasn't this an issue over age with all the old people getting vaccinated first?

I mean absolutely everywhere.

No one was screaming about senior citizens, "See, I told you they were taking over!!!11!1 And the Democrats are helping them!"

The reason is that it's much more dangerous in old people.

The racial pattern, however, isn't demonstrated because you need to control for lifestyle and occupational factors. A lot of those BIPOCs are working in places like retail where the risk is high.

Some groups will be at a biological advantage or disadvantage due to factors that are not yet known at this time because the virus and epidemiological study of this virus is so relatively new. Some of those groups could well be racial/ethnic groups whose genetics make it harder or easier for the virus to penetrate cells or otherwise replicate and cause the damage throughout the circulatory system and body as it's known to do.

Breaking priority groups down isn't that granular: we don't know enough and even if we did, we do not know which individuals within a group will be more at risk. I know 90+ year olds who had COVID19 and recovered quite well or so it seems as of now. And a relatively healthy 50 year old who died after months of illness. Generally, young children do not become ill but some have and some have died.

So categories are pretty broad. It has been demonstrated that BIPOC as population groups suffer a higher incidence and greater morbidity and mortality compared with white counterparts. How much of this is genetics, how much of this is socioeconomic factors, diet, other health risks, community/work exposure, etc. is not known. It IS known that black people in the US generally suffer from a higher incidence of high blood pressure and heart disease compared with the general population and that Native American populations suffer a higher rate of diabetes, for example. Both of those health conditions are known to be risk factors for increased risk of serious disease and/or death re: COVID19.
 
So categories are pretty broad. It has been demonstrated that BIPOC as population groups suffer a higher incidence and greater morbidity and mortality compared with white counterparts. How much of this is genetics, how much of this is socioeconomic factors, diet, other health risks, community/work exposure, etc. is not known. It IS known that black people in the US generally suffer from a higher incidence of high blood pressure and heart disease compared with the general population and that Native American populations suffer a higher rate of diabetes, for example. Both of those health conditions are known to be risk factors for increased risk of serious disease and/or death re: COVID19.

So, do you support Vermont prioritising men over women, on exactly the same reasoning?
 
So categories are pretty broad. It has been demonstrated that BIPOC as population groups suffer a higher incidence and greater morbidity and mortality compared with white counterparts. How much of this is genetics, how much of this is socioeconomic factors, diet, other health risks, community/work exposure, etc. is not known. It IS known that black people in the US generally suffer from a higher incidence of high blood pressure and heart disease compared with the general population and that Native American populations suffer a higher rate of diabetes, for example. Both of those health conditions are known to be risk factors for increased risk of serious disease and/or death re: COVID19.

So, do you support Vermont prioritising men over women, on exactly the same reasoning?

Looking at the Vermont State dashboard for stats, they report that males and females have similar rates of infection whereas black and hispanic populations have increased incidence of COVID19.

There does not seem to be a reason to prioritize men over women in Vermont from what I can see.
 
So categories are pretty broad. It has been demonstrated that BIPOC as population groups suffer a higher incidence and greater morbidity and mortality compared with white counterparts. How much of this is genetics, how much of this is socioeconomic factors, diet, other health risks, community/work exposure, etc. is not known. It IS known that black people in the US generally suffer from a higher incidence of high blood pressure and heart disease compared with the general population and that Native American populations suffer a higher rate of diabetes, for example. Both of those health conditions are known to be risk factors for increased risk of serious disease and/or death re: COVID19.

So, do you support Vermont prioritising men over women, on exactly the same reasoning?

Looking at the Vermont State dashboard for stats, they report that males and females have similar rates of infection whereas black and hispanic populations have increased incidence of COVID19.

There does not seem to be a reason to prioritize men over women in Vermont from what I can see.

Ah. So in states where men do die more often from COVID than women, you would support prioritising men over women? For example, in California, where 35,000 men have died from COVID-19 compared to 25,000 women?
 
Looking at the Vermont State dashboard for stats, they report that males and females have similar rates of infection whereas black and hispanic populations have increased incidence of COVID19.

There does not seem to be a reason to prioritize men over women in Vermont from what I can see.

Ah. So in states where men do die more often from COVID than women, you would support prioritising men over women? For example, in California, where 35,000 men have died from COVID-19 compared to 25,000 women?

It would need to be more granular than that.

For instance, if the greater number of male deaths were included in the number of deaths of people over the age of 65 for instance, or people who belong to some other demographic, then it might not be so obvious.

For instance, if we know that health care workers/persons working in care homes are more likely to be infected, then we would expect to see a higher incidence of women infected compared with men, because more women work in health care compared with men. Similarly, if we found a higher number of truck drivers were infected compared with cashiers, we'd see more men infected compared with women.

So, I don't know if the greater number of male deaths are already accounted for (more likely to have hypertension, heart disease, smoking, etc). Gender/sex may not be the risk factor.

Again, priority lists for vaccination were best predictions of those most likely to have serious negative outcomes if they became infected and/or those most likely to be exposed/expose others.

Very broadly in the US, among the high risk 'essential workers' are people who work in groceries and for Amazon --and truck drivers, as well as health care workers, some teachers, and so on. Many of those essential workers (those who work at grocery stores and for Amazon and sometimes, truck drivers) tend to be economically disadvantaged and disproportionately BIPOC. These are also people who are most income insecure, least likely to be able to take time off for illness or illness of a child/loved one, least likely to have health care, and so on. Plus, the nature of these jobs puts them in close contact with the public: they are exposed much more frequently than most people, and are at higher risk of exposing others by the nature of their work.

We simply cannot perform a genetic analysis and health risk analysis on every single person to determine/guestimate their risk for infection/adverse outcomes/risk of infecting others. It's too costly, we don't know enough and most importantly, it's far too time consuming. We develop large categories that are relatively easily definable in order to get the most number of at risk people vaccinated first, and then move on to everyone else. Currently it's 16 and over for vaccination, period. There have not been studies about vaccination on younger children which is the big hold up on vaccinating them.
 
I am not saying I am for it or against it.

BUT I wonder why wasn't this an issue over age with all the old people getting vaccinated first?

I mean absolutely everywhere.

No one was screaming about senior citizens, "See, I told you they were taking over!!!11!1 And the Democrats are helping them!"

The reason is that it's much more dangerous in old people.

On average. Individuals vary. But you didn't answer the question. Is it a constitutional principle or not??? If it is an actual Constitutional principle and Vermont's policy is racially discriminatory, then whatever that principle is applies to age discrimination as well. In fact, it applies not only in Vermont but across the whole country.

The racial pattern, however, isn't demonstrated because you need to control for lifestyle and occupational factors.

You do everywhere. Every individual is different. Besides, you are not even close to answering my question. Discrimination on the basis of age, race, creed, etc would still be discrimination even IF the root cause of health disparities were monkeys flying out of people's butts.

A lot of those BIPOCs are working in places like retail where the risk is high.

And a lot of old people live in contagious environments like nursing homes and hospitals. Plus, old people have less years to live and therefore less life to lose by dying. But none of that is relevant. No one made the rules in question by risk factors and root causes but instead by demographics that correlate to poorer outcomes.

IF it is really illegal discrimination, you can't make an exception for one category but not another. Big IF. And since it would be age discrimination then if it were race discrimination now, why the gynormous reaction now but not before?
 
It would need to be more granular than that.

For instance, if the greater number of male deaths were included in the number of deaths of people over the age of 65 for instance, or people who belong to some other demographic, then it might not be so obvious.

For instance, if we know that health care workers/persons working in care homes are more likely to be infected, then we would expect to see a higher incidence of women infected compared with men, because more women work in health care compared with men. Similarly, if we found a higher number of truck drivers were infected compared with cashiers, we'd see more men infected compared with women.

So, I don't know if the greater number of male deaths are already accounted for (more likely to have hypertension, heart disease, smoking, etc). Gender/sex may not be the risk factor.

Yet the exact same reasoning can be used for BIPOC deaths from COVID

In fact, the exact same reasoning was just used by you.

Toni said:
So categories are pretty broad. It has been demonstrated that BIPOC as population groups suffer a higher incidence and greater morbidity and mortality compared with white counterparts. How much of this is genetics, how much of this is socioeconomic factors, diet, other health risks, community/work exposure, etc. is not known. It IS known that black people in the US generally suffer from a higher incidence of high blood pressure and heart disease compared with the general population and that Native American populations suffer a higher rate of diabetes, for example. Both of those health conditions are known to be risk factors for increased risk of serious disease and/or death re: COVID19.

Again, priority lists for vaccination were best predictions of those most likely to have serious negative outcomes if they became infected and/or those most likely to be exposed/expose others.

I know why there are priority lists, Toni.

Very broadly in the US, among the high risk 'essential workers' are people who work in groceries and for Amazon --and truck drivers, as well as health care workers, some teachers, and so on. Many of those essential workers (those who work at grocery stores and for Amazon and sometimes, truck drivers) tend to be economically disadvantaged and disproportionately BIPOC.

We simply cannot perform a genetic analysis and health risk analysis on every single person to determine/guestimate their risk for infection/adverse outcomes/risk of infecting others. It's too costly, we don't know enough and most importantly, it's far too time consuming. We develop large categories that are relatively easily definable in order to get the most number of at risk people vaccinated first, and then move on to everyone else. Currently it's 16 and over for vaccination, period. There have not been studies about vaccination on younger children which is the big hold up on vaccinating them.

Does your blatant hypocrisy ever, like, ever, give you pause?

Almost every single thing you said about BIPOC deaths from COVID applies to male deaths from COVID. Men are more obese. They have higher incidence of type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure.

You speak about 'granularity' when it comes to prioritising men over women, but you leave that analysis out for BIPOC over white. All or most of the 'extra' BIPOC deaths could be accounted for by the priority given to people with high-risk health conditions - just as the same category might account for the 'extra' male deaths.

[removed insult]
 
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Yet the exact same reasoning can be used for BIPOC deaths from COVID

In fact, the exact same reasoning was just used by you.



Again, priority lists for vaccination were best predictions of those most likely to have serious negative outcomes if they became infected and/or those most likely to be exposed/expose others.

I know why there are priority lists, Toni.

Very broadly in the US, among the high risk 'essential workers' are people who work in groceries and for Amazon --and truck drivers, as well as health care workers, some teachers, and so on. Many of those essential workers (those who work at grocery stores and for Amazon and sometimes, truck drivers) tend to be economically disadvantaged and disproportionately BIPOC.

We simply cannot perform a genetic analysis and health risk analysis on every single person to determine/guestimate their risk for infection/adverse outcomes/risk of infecting others. It's too costly, we don't know enough and most importantly, it's far too time consuming. We develop large categories that are relatively easily definable in order to get the most number of at risk people vaccinated first, and then move on to everyone else. Currently it's 16 and over for vaccination, period. There have not been studies about vaccination on younger children which is the big hold up on vaccinating them.

Does your blatant hypocrisy ever, like, ever, give you pause?

Almost every single thing you said about BIPOC deaths from COVID applies to male deaths from COVID. Men are more obese. They have higher incidence of type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure.

You speak about 'granularity' when it comes to prioritising men over women, but you leave that analysis out for BIPOC over white. All or most of the 'extra' BIPOC deaths could be accounted for by the priority given to people with high-risk health conditions - just as the same category might account for the 'extra' male deaths.

[insult removed]

nm

Your personal attacks and abuse of me are duly noted.
 
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I would expect this to get to the courts and struck down, unless Vermont government officials in charge of this realize quickly enough that it is not winnable.

Or they simply don't enforce it. Can you imagine a scene where the healthcare worker says "no vaccine for you" because you're White?
 
Yet the exact same reasoning can be used for BIPOC deaths from COVID

In fact, the exact same reasoning was just used by you.





I know why there are priority lists, Toni.



Does your blatant hypocrisy ever, like, ever, give you pause?

Almost every single thing you said about BIPOC deaths from COVID applies to male deaths from COVID. Men are more obese. They have higher incidence of type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure.

You speak about 'granularity' when it comes to prioritising men over women, but you leave that analysis out for BIPOC over white. All or most of the 'extra' BIPOC deaths could be accounted for by the priority given to people with high-risk health conditions - just as the same category might account for the 'extra' male deaths.

[insult removed]

nm

Your personal attacks and abuse of me are duly noted.


"Abuse". Gospa moja.

What you've demonstrated to God and everybody, Toni, is that you are adept at post-hoc rationalisations to exclude men from your sphere of moral concern, even when you use the exact same reasons to include BIPOC.
 
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I would expect this to get to the courts and struck down, unless Vermont government officials in charge of this realize quickly enough that it is not winnable.

Or they simply don't enforce it. Can you imagine a scene where the healthcare worker says "no vaccine for you" because you're White?

How about 'Check your privilege, and don't steal the vaccines from minorities who have been oppressed for centuries', or something like that? How committed to the Woke religion is the healthcare worker?

In any case, those would probably be rare cases, if any. On the other hand, I can definitely imagine an webpage where you enter your info, including race, and which automatically prioritizes people according to race. Sure, some will lie and get the vaccine anyway, but others (probably most) will abide by the rules, and that would in practice result in clear discrimination.

Then again, someone might actually test the system in order to have a court case and bring this down (e.g., White lawyer, blond hair, blue eyes, says he's Black, and then sues if he gets rejected for being obviously not Black).
 
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