Violent riots underway in Kenosha, WI

[ruby sparks]

The idea that the car being a potential weapon is in any way a reasonable justification for shooting him is just plain daft.

 

[Toni]

As we learned during George Zimmerman's trial, a sidewalk is a deadly weapon. Anytime someone is on or near a sidewalk they can be considered armed, so it's okay for cops and vigilantes to kill them under those circumstances. Presumption of innocence does not apply unless they're as white as Zimmerman or Rittenhouse, in which case there's no cause for alarm even if you can see they're on a sidewalk and they have a weapon.

Zimmerman isn't really white. Sort of. But regardless, that's just a silly take. The police shoot white people all the time, including unarmed white people.

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white. All are a step above blacks in the USA. Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

 

[Worldtraveller]

As we learned during George Zimmerman's trial, a sidewalk is a deadly weapon. Anytime someone is on or near a sidewalk they can be considered armed, so it's okay for cops and vigilantes to kill them under those circumstances. Presumption of innocence does not apply unless they're as white as Zimmerman or Rittenhouse, in which case there's no cause for alarm even if you can see they're on a sidewalk and they have a weapon.

Zimmerman isn't really white. Sort of. But regardless, that's just a silly take. The police shoot white people all the time, including unarmed white people.

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white. All are a step above blacks in the USA. Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

In terms of how they are treated by the police, native americans are the 'lowest' on that virtual totem pole.

I have many friends, and many more acquaintances, in the NA community in AZ.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white. All are a step above blacks in the USA. Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

In terms of how they are treated by the police, native americans are the 'lowest' on that virtual totem pole.

I have many friends, and many more acquaintances, in the NA community in AZ.

Technically, they don't even have a spot on the Totem Pole, which is somewhat ironic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As we learned during George Zimmerman's trial, a sidewalk is a deadly weapon. Anytime someone is on or near a sidewalk they can be considered armed, so it's okay for cops and vigilantes to kill them under those circumstances. Presumption of innocence does not apply unless they're as white as Zimmerman or Rittenhouse, in which case there's no cause for alarm even if you can see they're on a sidewalk and they have a weapon.

Zimmerman isn't really white. Sort of. But regardless, that's just a silly take. The police shoot white people all the time, including unarmed white people.

I wanted to add numbers.

According to this paper, about 1 in 6.5 (15%) black victims, 1 in 11 (9%) white victims, and 1 in 14 (6%) hispanic victims of police shooting deaths were unarmed. What is interesting is that for all three, there was about 1 in 60 cases where an officer was killed in the exchange.

Regarding blacks, they are disproportionally more likely to be killed, more likely to unarmed... and an officer is more likely to be harmed (not killed) in incidents involving the a police shooting (killing0.

But in general, the percent of incidents where an officer is killed in such events, is the same for white and blacks. You'd think if blacks were getting killed more, officers would also be getting killed more.

 

[Toni]

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white. All are a step above blacks in the USA. Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

In terms of how they are treated by the police, native americans are the 'lowest' on that virtual totem pole.

I have many friends, and many more acquaintances, in the NA community in AZ.

Yeah, it depends entirely on where you are talking about. From my understanding, SW USA is worse than some other places.

 

[Arctish]

As we learned during George Zimmerman's trial, a sidewalk is a deadly weapon. Anytime someone is on or near a sidewalk they can be considered armed, so it's okay for cops and vigilantes to kill them under those circumstances. Presumption of innocence does not apply unless they're as white as Zimmerman or Rittenhouse, in which case there's no cause for alarm even if you can see they're on a sidewalk and they have a weapon.

Zimmerman isn't really white. Sort of. But regardless, that's just a silly take. The police shoot white people all the time, including unarmed white people.

I wanted to add numbers.

According to this paper, about 1 in 6.5 (15%) black victims, 1 in 11 (9%) white victims, and 1 in 14 (6%) hispanic victims of police shooting deaths were unarmed. What is interesting is that for all three, there was about 1 in 60 cases where an officer was killed in the exchange.

Regarding blacks, they are disproportionally more likely to be killed, more likely to unarmed... and an officer is more likely to be harmed (not killed) in incidents involving the a police shooting (killing0.

But in general, the percent of incidents where an officer is killed in such events, is the same for white and blacks. You'd think if blacks were getting killed more, officers would also be getting killed more.

This is one of the sources cited by the article I linked to a few days back: A Bird's Eye View of Civilians Killed by Police in 2015

Research Summary
We analyzed 990 police fatal shootings using data compiled by The Washington Post in 2015. After first providing a basic descriptive analysis of these shootings, we then examined the data for evidence of implicit bias by using multivariate regression models that predict two indicators of threat perception failure: (1) whether the civilian was not attacking the officer(s) or other civilians just before being fatally shot and (2) whether the civilian was unarmed when fatally shot. The results indicated civilians from “other” minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians and that Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed.

There's plenty of evidence that shows unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks are significantly more likely than unarmed and/or non-threatening whites to be shot by the police. So while all such shootings are a huge problem and an urgent concern, the danger cops pose to unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks is the most urgent.

 

[Derec]

Research Summary
We analyzed 990 police fatal shootings using data compiled by The Washington Post in 2015. After first providing a basic descriptive analysis of these shootings, we then examined the data for evidence of implicit bias by using multivariate regression models that predict two indicators of threat perception failure: (1) whether the civilian was not attacking the officer(s) or other civilians just before being fatally shot and (2) whether the civilian was unarmed when fatally shot. The results indicated civilians from “other” minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians and that Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed.

There's plenty of evidence that shows unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks are significantly more likely than unarmed and/or non-threatening whites to be shot by the police. So while all such shootings are a huge problem and an urgent concern, the danger cops pose to unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks is the most urgent.

Note that they did not claim that black suspects were more likely to not have been attacking police or a civilian. They just claim more have been unarmed. But unarmed people can still pose a threat. If a police officer is physically attacked, that's a lethal threat by definition since the assailant can easily arm himself with the officers gun. Such cases have happened, sometimes ending fatally for the police officers. I would also like to know their definition of "unarmed". Some people nave claimed that people armed with realistic-looking replicas should count as "unarmed" and I have even seen people call perps armed with knives and other melee weapons as "unarmed". Or how about when a perp drops a gun and tries to pick it up? At that moment he is, in the most technical sense, "unarmed" but not it would be disingenuous to count him as such.

As to "'other' minority groups", who are they are what is N? If N is low, the discrepancy could be due to random chance.

 

[Derec]

Technically, they don't even have a spot on the Totem Pole, which is somewhat ironic.

What, racial monopoly industries and all kinds of tax exemptions not good enough to count as a spot on the totem pole? If anything, Indians are on the very top. At least if their tribe opened a casino.

 

[Derec]

In terms of how they are treated by the police, native americans are the 'lowest' on that virtual totem pole.

And how are they treated by police exactly?

I have many friends, and many more acquaintances, in the NA community in AZ.

Can you get a discount at the casinos?

 

[Derec]

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white.

Arabs, Persians and Indians are certainly Caucasian, even though many Indians are quite dark they still have caucasoid facial features.


Many Arabs though are as white as most Europeans.

People seriously claim this girl is not white because she is Arab and (nominally at least) Muslim.


It's really only due to their religion that people pretend that lily-white women such as Rashida Tlaib and Linda the Cockroach are somehow "brown" ...

Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

They are also at least a half-step ahead of whites, given monopoly casinos, tax exemptions and unequal treatment under the law (they are the only ones who may possess eagle feathers, a clear violation of the 14th Amendment).

 

[Derec]

The idea that the car being a potential weapon is in any way a reasonable justification for shooting him is just plain daft.

It would not be in vacuum. But this guy already showed that he is willing to engage in violence to escape an arrest.
Furthermore, police do not know if there is a gun in the vehicle. Note also that it may not even be his car. His baby mama, who accused him of digitally penetrating her, also said this.

You can read the criminal complaint in the May 2020 case above here. The mother of some of Blake’s children accused him of digitally penetrating her without her consent. “LNB stated she and the defendant have three children together but have never resided together in the eight years they have been on and off. LNB stated the defendant is unemployed, has no vehicle, and would not tell LNB where he was currently living. LNB stated over the past eight years the defendant has physically assaulted her around twice a year when he drinks heavily,” the complaint says.

So if this wasn't his vehicle, does that mean he also tried to kidnap the kids?
But no, let's pretend that the initial lie that he was trying to break up a fight hasn't been discredited.

 

[Arctish]

Research Summary
We analyzed 990 police fatal shootings using data compiled by The Washington Post in 2015. After first providing a basic descriptive analysis of these shootings, we then examined the data for evidence of implicit bias by using multivariate regression models that predict two indicators of threat perception failure: (1) whether the civilian was not attacking the officer(s) or other civilians just before being fatally shot and (2) whether the civilian was unarmed when fatally shot. The results indicated civilians from “other” minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians and that Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed.

There's plenty of evidence that shows unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks are significantly more likely than unarmed and/or non-threatening whites to be shot by the police. So while all such shootings are a huge problem and an urgent concern, the danger cops pose to unarmed and/or non-threatening blacks is the most urgent.

Note that they did not claim that black suspects were more likely to not have been attacking police or a civilian. They just claim more have been unarmed. But unarmed people can still pose a threat. If a police officer is physically attacked, that's a lethal threat by definition since the assailant can easily arm himself with the officers gun. Such cases have happened, sometimes ending fatally for the police officers. I would also like to know their definition of "unarmed". Some people nave claimed that people armed with realistic-looking replicas should count as "unarmed" and I have even seen people call perps armed with knives and other melee weapons as "unarmed". Or how about when a perp drops a gun and tries to pick it up? At that moment he is, in the most technical sense, "unarmed" but not it would be disingenuous to count him as such.

As to "'other' minority groups", who are they are what is N? If N is low, the discrepancy could be due to random chance.

I highlighted the parts of the summary that address the majority of your post.

The entirety of their report is available if you're really that interested in reading it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The knife was planted by the police.

Really now? The police planted a knife in his hand while he was walking around? They have some sort of mind control ray??

I jut figured if you're allowed to make up stupid shit, sure. There probably wasn't even a knife. All they did was write that on the report.

Try paying attention to the evidence. The picture has been posted on here, complete with deniers pretending it's something else that doesn't look at all like what's in the photo..

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As we learned during George Zimmerman's trial, a sidewalk is a deadly weapon. Anytime someone is on or near a sidewalk they can be considered armed, so it's okay for cops and vigilantes to kill them under those circumstances. Presumption of innocence does not apply unless they're as white as Zimmerman or Rittenhouse, in which case there's no cause for alarm even if you can see they're on a sidewalk and they have a weapon.

Zimmerman isn't really white. Sort of. But regardless, that's just a silly take. The police shoot white people all the time, including unarmed white people.

I wanted to add numbers.

According to this paper, about 1 in 6.5 (15%) black victims, 1 in 11 (9%) white victims, and 1 in 14 (6%) hispanic victims of police shooting deaths were unarmed. What is interesting is that for all three, there was about 1 in 60 cases where an officer was killed in the exchange.

Regarding blacks, they are disproportionally more likely to be killed, more likely to unarmed... and an officer is more likely to be harmed (not killed) in incidents involving the a police shooting (killing0.

But in general, the percent of incidents where an officer is killed in such events, is the same for white and blacks. You'd think if blacks were getting killed more, officers would also be getting killed more.

I think you're interpreting the statistics backwards. If the odds of the officer dying are about the same that implies the same standard is being used to evaluate the threat in all three cases. If you were right that they were more willing to kill
unarmed blacks then you would see a lower officer death rate in such situations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that they did not claim that black suspects were more likely to not have been attacking police or a civilian. They just claim more have been unarmed. But unarmed people can still pose a threat. If a police officer is physically attacked, that's a lethal threat by definition since the assailant can easily arm himself with the officers gun. Such cases have happened, sometimes ending fatally for the police officers. I would also like to know their definition of "unarmed". Some people nave claimed that people armed with realistic-looking replicas should count as "unarmed" and I have even seen people call perps armed with knives and other melee weapons as "unarmed". Or how about when a perp drops a gun and tries to pick it up? At that moment he is, in the most technical sense, "unarmed" but not it would be disingenuous to count him as such.

As to "'other' minority groups", who are they are what is N? If N is low, the discrepancy could be due to random chance.

"Unarmed" includes attempts to take the officer's weapon and all cases of weapons that aren't real, even when the person shot was pretending the weapon was real. I believe it also counts those behind the wheel.

 

[Arctish]

Note that they did not claim that black suspects were more likely to not have been attacking police or a civilian. They just claim more have been unarmed. But unarmed people can still pose a threat. If a police officer is physically attacked, that's a lethal threat by definition since the assailant can easily arm himself with the officers gun. Such cases have happened, sometimes ending fatally for the police officers. I would also like to know their definition of "unarmed". Some people nave claimed that people armed with realistic-looking replicas should count as "unarmed" and I have even seen people call perps armed with knives and other melee weapons as "unarmed". Or how about when a perp drops a gun and tries to pick it up? At that moment he is, in the most technical sense, "unarmed" but not it would be disingenuous to count him as such.

As to "'other' minority groups", who are they are what is N? If N is low, the discrepancy could be due to random chance.

"Unarmed" includes attempts to take the officer's weapon and all cases of weapons that aren't real, even when the person shot was pretending the weapon was real. I believe it also counts those behind the wheel.

You're bullshitting again.

You've barely had time to read the source material, not that I think you did.

You haven't had time to examine the documentation of police-civilian encounters that resulted in a shooting used in the study in order to determine whether 'unarmed' includes attempts to take the officer's weapon, and all cases of weapons that aren't real.

You're making things up and everyone knows it.

 

[marc]

We should send out the police unarmed then. They definitely won’t be able to shoot an unarmed then. And if they encounter someone threatening them with a weapon, well they can just take it from them. At least according to all the arguments defending shooting unarmed people. Or just get in their car as it is also a ‘deadly weapon’.

 

[Toni]

Oh, come on now. You are just as aware of the US racial hierarchy as I am. Hispanic is white compared to a black person. In the US, an Arab or someone from the subcontinent of India is not considered white but Arabs and Persians generally consider themselves white.

Arabs, Persians and Indians are certainly Caucasian, even though many Indians are quite dark they still have caucasoid facial features.
View attachment 29181

Many Arabs though are as white as most Europeans.
View attachment 29180
People seriously claim this girl is not white because she is Arab and (nominally at least) Muslim.


It's really only due to their religion that people pretend that lily-white women such as Rashida Tlaib and Linda the Cockroach are somehow "brown" ...

Native Americans, in areas where they still are a presence, are at best, half a step ahead of blacks.

They are also at least a half-step ahead of whites, given monopoly casinos, tax exemptions and unequal treatment under the law (they are the only ones who may possess eagle feathers, a clear violation of the 14th Amendment).

Seriously: Most people I know who are of South Indian descent do not refer to themselves as white in the US, and where I grew up, they would certainly not be considered white, nor would Arabs or Persians--no matter how light their skin. Most Arabs and Persians I know consider themselves white except compared with US whites.

As far as your anti-Native American garbage spew, thanks for proving my point.

 

[J842P]

Note that they did not claim that black suspects were more likely to not have been attacking police or a civilian. They just claim more have been unarmed. But unarmed people can still pose a threat. If a police officer is physically attacked, that's a lethal threat by definition since the assailant can easily arm himself with the officers gun. Such cases have happened, sometimes ending fatally for the police officers. I would also like to know their definition of "unarmed". Some people nave claimed that people armed with realistic-looking replicas should count as "unarmed" and I have even seen people call perps armed with knives and other melee weapons as "unarmed". Or how about when a perp drops a gun and tries to pick it up? At that moment he is, in the most technical sense, "unarmed" but not it would be disingenuous to count him as such.

As to "'other' minority groups", who are they are what is N? If N is low, the discrepancy could be due to random chance.

"Unarmed" includes attempts to take the officer's weapon and all cases of weapons that aren't real, even when the person shot was pretending the weapon was real. I believe it also counts those behind the wheel.

You're bullshitting again.

You've barely had time to read the source material, not that I think you did.

You haven't had time to examine the documentation of police-civilian encounters that resulted in a shooting used in the study in order to determine whether 'unarmed' includes attempts to take the officer's weapon, and all cases of weapons that aren't real.

You're making things up and everyone knows it.

If they are using the WaPo dataset, it's available here:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/w...otings/master/fatal-police-shootings-data.csv

An unarmed does include people who are attacking the police. Doing some quick exploratory analysis, I grouped by whether or not they were armed, the race, and the "threat level". For black people:

B    False      attack         834
                other          319
                undetermined    44
     True       attack          53
                other           55
                undetermined    17

For white people:

W    False      attack        1613
                other          687
                undetermined    86
     True       attack          63
                other           72
                undetermined    11

If anyone wants to reproduce, using python with pandas:

import pandas as pd
df = pd.read_csv('https://raw.githubusercontent.com/washingtonpost/data-police-shootings/master/fatal-police-shootings-data.csv')
df = df.assign(is_unarmed=df.armed == 'unarmed')
print(df.groupby(['race','is_unarmed', 'threat_level'])[['id']].count())

And the output of the above:

                                id
race is_unarmed threat_level
A    False      attack          50
                other           35
                undetermined     1
     True       attack           1
                other            6
B    False      attack         834
                other          319
                undetermined    44
     True       attack          53
                other           55
                undetermined    17
H    False      attack         520
                other          304
                undetermined    38
     True       attack          15
                other           37
                undetermined    11
N    False      attack          43
                other           28
                undetermined     3
     True       attack           1
                other            2
                undetermined     1
O    False      attack          29
                other           13
     True       attack           2
                other            3
W    False      attack        1613
                other          687
                undetermined    86
     True       attack          63
                other           72
                undetermined    11

And here are the various ways people can be armed, which does include vehicles. Here it is ranked by frequency:

gun                                 3184
knife                                829
unarmed                              356
toy weapon                           193
undetermined                         171
vehicle                              161
unknown weapon                        79
machete                               47
Taser                                 26
ax                                    24
sword                                 23
baseball bat                          18
gun and knife                         18
hammer                                16
metal pipe                            14
screwdriver                           13
sharp object                          13
box cutter                            12
hatchet                               11
gun and vehicle                       11
gun and car                           11
crossbow                               9
scissors                               7
shovel                                 6
pipe                                   6
rock                                   6
baton                                  5
piece of wood                          5
BB gun                                 5
meat cleaver                           5
blunt object                           5
straight edge razor                    4
metal object                           4
crowbar                                4
chair                                  4
vehicle and gun                        4
pick-axe                               4
beer bottle                            3
metal pole                             3
guns and explosives                    3
glass shard                            3
samurai sword                          3
pellet gun                             3
chain                                  3
metal stick                            3
brick                                  2
lawn mower blade                       2
pole                                   2
pepper spray                           2
flashlight                             2
incendiary device                      2
hatchet and gun                        2
pitchfork                              2
garden tool                            2
pole and knife                         2
chain saw                              2
bottle                                 1
oar                                    1
machete and gun                        1
grenade                                1
vehicle and machete                    1
barstool                               1
wrench                                 1
BB gun and vehicle                     1
air pistol                             1
motorcycle                             1
contractor's level                     1
bayonet                                1
fireworks                              1
bean-bag gun                           1
cordless drill                         1
baseball bat and fireplace poker       1
car, knife and mace                    1
stapler                                1
wasp spray                             1
bow and arrow                          1
pen                                    1
walking stick                          1
baseball bat and bottle                1
metal rake                             1
chainsaw                               1
hand torch                             1
air conditioner                        1
flagpole                               1
Airsoft pistol                         1
ice pick                               1
gun and sword                          1
spear                                  1
tire iron                              1
baseball bat and knife                 1
nail gun                               1
carjack                                1
claimed to be armed                    1
metal hand tool                        1

I really want to read about samurai sword, gun and sword, and wasp spray...


Anyway, [this study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12269) I'll note doesn't show that if you are unarmed, non-attacking, and black you are more likely to get shot than a white person. Rather, that's only the case for the (relatively small group) of "other". And anyway, this is such a naive analysis it's not really worth much. For a better quality study, one that really tries to get to the heart of the issue, and it's one of the better ones I've seen on the subject of race and police shootings, is the one by Roland Fryer:

https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/p...-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force

It concludes that:

On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account

So, it's pretty surprising. On the one hand, it does show that black/hispanic men are more likely to have an interaction that involves force with police, even when you take context into account, but they find no difference in officer-involved shootings.

I will say, I generally find that econometricians are just better at these analyses. I'll also note, Roland Fryer is the youngest black man ever to get tenure at Harvard, since I suppose, that matters.