Virgin birth of Jesus

[Lion IRC]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm

It says He was conceived - not she.

Was Jesus immaculately conceived or not? Yes of course He was. This is uncontroversial. (Unless you're someone like Shelby Spong)

But in order for Mary herself to have been Immaculately conceived this would require extra-biblical justification/explanation.

Was the womb in which Mary was conceived Immaculate? Who was her mother/father? Was Mary's mother also 'immaculate'? Free from the original sin that all naturally conceived humans have? Is that how Mary was conceived?

Was Mary free from original sin? Who claims this and what is the basis of such a claim.

How do we reconcile Mary's incarnation free from original sin, by divine fiat, with the incarnation of other souls which must then be presumed to have been created WITH original sin by God - rather than the more orthodox view that we inherit original sin by our (carnal) descendence from Adam and Eve.

 

[bilby]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm

It says He was conceived - not she.

The word 'Immaculate' does not appear on that page. So it tells us nothing about what the phrase 'immaculate conception' means.

Was Jesus immaculately conceived or not? Yes of course He was. This is uncontroversial. (Unless you're someone like Shelby Spong)

On the contrary - it's highly controversial. The RCC says MARY was immaculately concieved; Jesus wasn't conceived at all - Mary was supposedly a virgin. Your fan-fic here is non-canon, and a simple Google search would have demonstrated that.

But in order for Mary herself to have been Immaculately conceived this would require extra-biblical justification/explanation.

Was the womb in which Mary was conceived Immaculate? Who was her mother/father? Was Mary's mother also 'immaculate'? Free from the original sin that all naturally conceived humans have? Is that how Mary was conceived?

Was Mary free from original sin? Who claims this and what is the basis of such a claim.

How do we reconcile Mary's incarnation free from original sin, by divine fiat, with the incarnation of other souls which must then be presumed to have been created WITH original sin by God - rather than the more orthodox view that we inherit original sin by our (carnal) descendence from Adam and Eve.

You will need to take that up with the Catholic Church. It's their story.

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX
Pope John Paul II

According to this dogmatic definition, it has been revealed by God that Mary was preserved from original sin from the moment of her conception

https://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm


As I said before, a theist who doesn't know the meaning of a theological concept, but truly believes that he does, is so commonplace as to be almost banal.

"Immaculate Conception" means something VERY different from what you think; And what it actually DOES mean, according to the RCC, is something you make clear you think is ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous too. But then, I think Christianity is ridiculous, so I don't find that surprising in the least.

 

[blastula]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm

It says He was conceived - not she.

She was conceived as well. And it doesn't say he was "immaculately" conceived. You're being way too obtuse.

Was Jesus immaculately conceived or not? Yes of course He was. This is uncontroversial. (Unless you're someone like Shelby Spong)

It's meaningless from where I sit. Whether anyone is "immaculately conceived" is just theological falderal. You seem to be expecting atheists to care one way or the other about which sect thinks they can can count angels on a pin better . Go argue theology with someone who cares. The only point I was interested in is what the term means. You strangely seem to think to know what a concept means is to agree with it.

But in order for Mary herself to have been Immaculately conceived this would require extra-biblical justification/explanation.

Was the womb in which Mary was conceived Immaculate? Who was her mother/father? Was Mary's mother also 'immaculate'? Free from the original sin that all naturally conceived humans have? Is that how Mary was conceived?

Was Mary free from original sin? Who claims this and what is the basis of such a claim.

How do we reconcile Mary's incarnation free from original sin, by divine fiat, with the incarnation of other souls which must then be presumed to have been created WITH original sin by God - rather than the more orthodox view that we inherit original sin by our (carnal) descendence from Adam and Eve.

This is all largely irrelevant, but it's funny that any of you think you can prove any of it, especially on what books count and which don't.

 

[DrZoidberg]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm

It says He was conceived - not she.

Was Jesus immaculately conceived or not? Yes of course He was. This is uncontroversial. (Unless you're someone like Shelby Spong)

But in order for Mary herself to have been Immaculately conceived this would require extra-biblical justification/explanation.

Was the womb in which Mary was conceived Immaculate? Who was her mother/father? Was Mary's mother also 'immaculate'? Free from the original sin that all naturally conceived humans have? Is that how Mary was conceived?

Was Mary free from original sin? Who claims this and what is the basis of such a claim.

How do we reconcile Mary's incarnation free from original sin, by divine fiat, with the incarnation of other souls which must then be presumed to have been created WITH original sin by God - rather than the more orthodox view that we inherit original sin by our (carnal) descendence from Adam and Eve.

The Catholic Church doesn't get to decide what the author of the Biblical texts meant. Their rulings is mostly politics. The object is to unite Christians of their day. Not to be accurate.

Have you really not done research on the Bible? Only Catholic sources aren't good enough. Amusingly enough they do give access to the Vatican library to real researchers. So it's not like they don't acknowledge that most papal rulings over the years have been wrong. But the structure of Catholicism means that they've got to keep teaching things they know are wrong.

And finally. All Catholic priests know this. At seminar they are taught the truth vs Catholic doctrine. They're completely open about it. Catholic seminar is a really good education based on proper research. Thetc still preach doctrine at mass. Perhaps you should ask your priest about that? Catholic teachings to the masses is based on traditions. Not research.

 

[Lion IRC]

In 1854 the Roman Catholic Church officially decided to add Mary to the list of people who were immaculately conceived.
Who was the other person on that list?

Oh yeah...now I remember.

It's Jesus - the One whom Mary referred to as her Saviour.

Do people who are free from sin need salvation?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In 1854 the Roman Catholic Church officially decided to add Mary to the list of people who were immaculately conceived.
Who was the other person on that list?

Oh yeah...now I remember.

It's Jesus - the One whom Mary referred to as her Saviour.

Do people who are free from sin need salvation?

Fucking typical. The man gets put on the list right away but the woman, who actually did the thing first, needs to wait almost two thousand years before someone gets around to adding her.

I don't want to be one of those people who scream about misogyny all the time, but this is a pretty blatant case of misogyny. I would have expected better from a long string of infallible people.


Also, weren't Adam and Eve immaculately conceived as well? There should be four people on that list. Actually, it's five if you include Frank. You probably don't know Frank, but he's this dude who was immaculately conceived - long story, not important to the thread.

 

[Lion IRC]

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't think God creates evil/sinful souls.
Original sin doesn't originate prior to incarnation
It's inherited - learned - from other sinners.

 

[bilby]

I don't think God creates evil/sinful souls.
Original sin doesn't originate prior to incarnation
It's inherited - learned - from other sinners.

Nobody cares what you don't think. (Apart from those of your co-religionists who worry about heresy, but they are generally not allowed to set you on fire anymore, so you likely don't have to worry about them).

If you want to make up your own personal religion, then go for your life. You're far from the first. But don't expect anyone else to care.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think God creates evil/sinful souls.
Original sin doesn't originate prior to incarnation
It's inherited - learned - from other sinners.

Is it because of Midiclorians?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't think God creates evil/sinful souls.
Original sin doesn't originate prior to incarnation
It's inherited - learned - from other sinners.

Unfortunately that ad hoc position doesn't hold water. Original sin is the only reason there are any people who call themselves christian. That I suppose, and the spaceman that supposedly cursed them. Not a bad schtick if you're into the whole 'woe is me' thing.

 

[Lion IRC]

Children are not created evil.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Children are not created evil.

So for first God gives us original sin. Doesn't sacrifice his son (because he resurrected him) which somehow cleans away the original sin that God was guilty of to begin with. And he expects us to be grateful. Have I understood all this correctly?

 

[blastula]

In 1854 the Roman Catholic Church officially decided to add Mary to the list of people who were immaculately conceived.



Who was the other person on that list?







Oh yeah...now I remember.







It's Jesus - the One whom Mary referred to as her Saviour.







Do people who are free from sin need salvation?

Who are you asking? Catholics have answers to any questions you have.





If your argument is that claims in later texts can be dismissed if not spelled out in earlier ones, then you should dismiss the virgin birth since it's not in Paul nor Mark.

 

[bilby]

Children are not created evil.

Not in your fanfic; but the Catholic doctrine of original sin suggests that many of the current claimants to the rights to the original works don't agree.

This is always a problem with really widely popular fiction, particularly once the authors are dead and can't rule on differences in interpretation.

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't dismiss the Virgin birth.
It's one of the least remarkable miracles in the bible.

 

[Lion IRC]

I do question the need to belatedly speculate that Mary was ALSO immaculately conceived, and Mary's mother, and her mother's mother. And her mother's mother's mother.

...especially since there's no obvious, direct scriptural support for the doctrine.

 

[bilby]

I don't dismiss the Virgin birth.
It's one of the least remarkable miracles in the bible.

I do, because you would need to be a hugely gullible moron to give it any credence at all.

It's very obvious to all but the wilfully ignorant that virgin humans didn't give birth in the era prior to modern medicine; and it's equally obvious that only prior to modern medicine would anyone (other than a total fool) imagine that it might happen.

 

[blastula]

I don't dismiss the Virgin birth.

I know you don't but you should if you think earlier texts have precedence.

It's one of the least remarkable miracles in the bible.

In that it's an obvious myth.

 

[blastula]

I do question the need to belatedly speculate that Mary was ALSO immaculately conceived, and Mary's mother, and her mother's mother. And her mother's mother's mother.

...especially since there's no obvious, direct scriptural support for the doctrine.

Tell it to a Catholic, they can answer everything. You can all settle it by praying on it.