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vp debate, thriller in vanilla 2016

I was totally impressed by Kaine. And that's from someone who was totally dismayed by Hillary choosing him over Warren. I thought for sure he was wimpy, shallow, and non-confrontational. What a surprise! I had watched the profiles on the two done by C-SPAN from their Archive videos and I wasn't impressed with Kaine, but actually thought Pence spoke with authority and had leadership potential. The debate reversed those opinions. Kaine was assertive, smart, empathetic, and expressed considerably more knowledge of world politics and the fight against terrorism than Pence. His responses were always sharp, to the point and well organized. He was much more engaged and positive in the discussion than Pence. While definitely more prepared and rehearsed than Pence he was also more in the moment, constantly looking either at the moderator or Pence while actively listening. Pence tried for canned responses every time and was usually looking at the floor while he spoke.

All in all, I thought it was more like a real debate than just about any I've seen. Early on it seemed like the moderator lost control with all three talking at once. But then one of them said "I thought this was supposed to be a discussion" and it settled into just that. They were then both allowed to interrupt each other within limits and I thought it was a fair contest. And Kaine definitely dominated. Pence turned out to be a pretty weak debater. But then he was hobbled by the specter of Trump's self-incriminating statements. I kind of wish that one of the Presidential debates would have the same format, except I don't think Hillary could do as well as Kaine. But then she has to deal with the Joker himself.

For pure entertainment value this would have been a much better debate if Clinton had chosen Warren to run with her. Warren would have torn Pense up. I am afraid that Clinton viewed she and Warren running together,

  1. would be too many smart women together for the nation to tolerate.
  2. that Warren is too far to the left. Kaine is firmly in the blue dog, box the conservatives in by being a sane and slightly more moderate conservative vein
  3. that Warren, according to Trump, is an Eastern liberal elitist who only got into Harvard due to affirmative action and her lying about being an indian, a native American. This is all completely wrong of course, she was born and raised in Oklahoma where her father was a disabled janitor, she was never a student enrolled in Harvard. she got her undergraduate degree from the University of Houston and her law degree from Rutgers Law School at Newark. However, she was the first professor hired by Harvard Law who got their degree from a public law school but she wasn't hired under affirmative action either as a woman or as a native american.
  4. Massachusetts isn't exactly a battleground state.
  5. I fear that Clinton was afraid that by having Warren on the ticket that donations would dry up from Clinton's buddies on Wall Street. I for one would consider this to be an asset, not a liability.
Liberals and Democrats need to actually challenge the ineffective and destructive ideas of the right and the right's neoliberalism, to offer an alternative that explains that we are not in a race war but we are in a war that the poor and the middle class, white, brown and black together, have been losing for forty years. That the biggest internal threat that we face isn't BLM or crime in the streets, it is the economic rentiers of the financial sector and of the 1% who are sucking the economy dry to enrich themselves at the costs of a robust economy and everyone else. That the rich don't provide funds for investment anymore, the customers of the businesses provide it. That the so-called national debt is the sum total of the national savings and that we can't ever pay it off because we would destroy all of the national savings and the economy to do it. (as long as we run a trade deficit)
 
Really? The blonde hair threw me off but you can see his distinctive jaw in that first photo.
 
Who won? Who lost? Only one thing matters. The polls several days later. If it moves numbers favorably, the debate matters. If not, it doesn't. I don't see any probability this debate will change much. No big knockout punch.
 
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The constant interruptions last night by Tim Kaine should not have been allowed. Mike Pence won big!
6:28 AM - 5 Oct 2016

I'm wondering if there has ever been a comment from Trump ripping into another person that wasn't actually a projection of his own faults.

It's a matter of a couple of chimp like apes attacking each other but using their tongues instead of their teeth. Speech replaces hoots and grunts. There is still hand flaying but no jumping in the air.

Of course in modern humans, projection of one's own faults by accusing others of the same is frequently designed to divert attention from self to others.
 
I'm wondering if there has ever been a comment from Trump ripping into another person that wasn't actually a projection of his own faults.

It's a matter of a couple of chimp like apes attacking each other but using their tongues instead of their teeth. Speech replaces hoots and grunts. There is still hand flaying but no jumping in the air.

Of course in modern humans, projection of one's own faults by accusing others of the same is frequently designed to divert attention from self to others.

Trump, yes; but you don't need to be so hard on Pence. He's a scary dominionist but I don't see him flinging poo like Trump does.
 
It's a matter of a couple of chimp like apes attacking each other but using their tongues instead of their teeth. Speech replaces hoots and grunts. There is still hand flaying but no jumping in the air.

Of course in modern humans, projection of one's own faults by accusing others of the same is frequently designed to divert attention from self to others.

Trump, yes; but you don't need to be so hard on Pence. He's a scary dominionist but I don't see him flinging poo like Trump does.

Not so entertaining then.
 
The Economist has an unique report on the Kaine Pence debate, titled; The vice-presidential debate was relatively civil, but still alarming. I hope that you can see it, it is a subscription service, but this is a blog which most publications allow access to by non-subscribers.

The Economist is British publication and there is a glaring omission in the article compared to American publications, they don't feel compelled to pick a winner, which seems to occupy a considerable part of the reports from the US.

KEEP Donald Trump off stage and wash this presidential campaign’s mouth out with soap, and American politics is still broken. That is the result that emerged from a controlled experiment in political science conducted on October 4th—more formally known as the first and only vice-presidential debate of 2016.

... (trivial scene setting by the magazine and the two men, nothing notable to Americans, e.g. "... the pair bragged, competitively, about their Middle American credentials") ...​

The vice-presidential debate provided the answer to a very specific question: what happens when a centrist Democrat with minimal political baggage is pitted against a fairly conventional, Reagan-quoting Republican from the Christian conservative wing of the party? Many conditions for a successful experiment were met. It seems safe to assume that the encounter ... will have had millions of Democrats and Republicans nodding along as their party’s nominee spoke. That is because the two hewed closely to positions that, polls show, are seen as no more than common sense by each party’s respective partisans. ...

On issue after issue Mr Kaine and Mr Pence represented the mainstream views of their parties, while avoiding the deeply personal attacks that so blight the Clinton-Trump contest. And yet the results from this experiment should give Americans pause. For the debate revealed vanishingly little common ground between the two men—to the point that it is hard to see how a government divided between their two parties would work. And if Mrs Clinton wins the White House in November, she will face a familiar division: Republicans will keep control of the House of Representatives, and could well hold the Senate too.

Press headlines after the debate focused on Mr Pence’s greater fluency and air of authority, on Mr Kaine’s nervousness, and on the theory that Democrats could console themselves that, at least, the Republican on stage spent much of his time being invited to defend Mr Trump’s nastiest insults. ...

But the debate also revealed something that will matter long after this election: America’s two parties struggle to agree even on a common set of facts about the state of the nation. Squabbling about whether the economy under Mr Obama has been a disaster or a stirring success, Mr Pence retorted that because voters in mostly white, working-class rust-belt cities are flocking to Mr Trump’s populist banner, that is what counts. Or as he put it: “Honestly, Senator, you can roll out the numbers and the sunny side, but I got to tell you, people in Scranton know different. People in Fort Wayne, Indiana, know different.”

For sure, Mr Trump’s demagoguery and Mrs Clinton’s unpopularity go a long way towards explaining this horrible election. But to extend the laboratory analogy rather far, Mr Trump is like a powerful electrical charge, catalysing a reaction already under way. Take Mrs Clinton off stage, and even a generic Democrat as amiable as Mr Kaine struggles to defend the status quo in a time of voter rage. This crisis is structural.
Bolding is mine.

They are right, in my opinion. The problem is structural, that is, it would be the same problem no matter who is involved.

If Clinton wins we will still face gridlock in government. The Republicans will demonize Clinton like they do Obama and they did her husband. They will certainly still hold the House of Representatives, enabling them to block any attempt to improve the economy or to pass any progressive social legislation. That is any legislation that doesn't include their number 1 priority, massive national debt increasing tax cuts for the rich. Tax cuts that don't boost the economy or anything but the wealth of the already wealthy.

Even if the Democrats win the Senate, which is currently rated at only about a 20% chance of happening, it will be because so many more Republicans have had to stand for reelection this year. The Senate is certain to revert to the Republicans in 2018, when the roles are reversed. The Constitutionally mandated gerrymandering in the Senate favors the Republicans because the small states that have a disproportionately greater representation in the Senate are largely red states. Also the demographics of the non-presidential election years favors the Republicans, highlighted by older, angry retired people who are inexplicably hellbent on electing Republicans who have promised to reduce Social Security benefits and Medicare coverage.

ObamaCare has no chance to be renewed when its authorization expires just before the election in 2020. There is zero chance of passing anything to replace it.

If the dictionary perfect example of both sociopathy and hubris wins all bets are off. Fortunately Nate Silver has Trump's chances of winning at only 16%. He now has to win all of the toss up swing states to win.

Any other opinions? Or do I win the thread because of my irrefutable logic and because no one will read this far?
 
... Any other opinions? Or do I win the thread because of my irrefutable logic and because no one will read this far?

Since nobody's interested in this thread anymore, I'd just like to apologize for being so contrarian all the time. I posted that I was very impressed with Kaine and that Pence had utterly failed to come across as a leader. Seems the whole world of talking heads is saying the opposite. In particular people on this forum who just loved him when he was first chosen. I'll continue to be wrong most of the time forever I guess. :worried:

But the average analyst as well as those who take whatever shallow tripe they put out as gospel has been taken over by tiny alien insecta from the Chelyabinsk meteor.
 
Any other opinions? Or do I win the thread because of my irrefutable logic and because no one will read this far?
Nah, I can't work up the interest in fussing over what VP candidate Putin had to say, when one has to deal with an 800 lb orangutan...
 
Any other opinions? Or do I win the thread because of my irrefutable logic and because no one will read this far?

Is it all Republicans, though? Or just the tea-party rot that got in relatively recently?
 
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