*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[Jimmy Higgins]

Anyhow, I don't know exactly what 'logic' has lead you to toss your Christian beliefs, and so I don't know if I or anyone can help get you back on that track, but let's see. What exactly sticks in your craw?

*Let me guess - all of it.

1I

Hey 1eye - let’s cut to the chase:

What do you have to say that makes Christianity convincing THAT WE HAVE NEVER HEARD BEFORE

This will save a lot of time. We’ve heard all of these arguments before and we found them completely not-believable. Some of us have been describing and detailing our reasons why these are not believable (at all!) for more than 20 years. Many of us have read the bible cover-to-cover more than once. Not believable.

20 years.
Everything we’ve heard from Christians in the last 20 years is not believable. It falls down to evidence, to facts, to logic, to repeatability and refutability. Bear in mind that some of what “we’ve heard” is stuff we’ve read that is much older than 20 years. Indeed, not one bit of apologetics ever written that has come before us has been believable.

So.

What have you got that you think none of us has heard in 20 years of study?
Just go with your #1 Most Compelling Evidence Ever - that you think we’ve never heard before.

...most credible evidence, not found in a Youtube video.

 

[Rhea]

...most credible evidence, not found in a Youtube video.

Right.
Remember: Rhea cannot watch Youtube on her rural connection. The Miracle of God’s Word is UNABLE to reach her through internet video. God has not been able to overcome the strength of the Invisible Hand of the Free Market(tm).

So, no youtube.
YOUR best, most compelling evidence, that you think we have never heard before, not any of us.

 

[Brian63]

He does not know what we have each heard or not heard before. The best we can ask for is what he finds the most compelling argument(s) for his beliefs, and then examine from there. Maybe throw around insults, but hopefully not.

 

[Rhea]

A wise sage once told me that if someone is being ver annoying on the internet, I should walk away.
So I am walking away from whoever has stolen Brian63’s password.


(I was at a pub the other night, and the show they had playing on the TV was “Painting with Bob Ross”. They even had a guest painting done by his son, who was very adept as well.)

As an aside, to the wind, I was very clear with the phrase, “that you think we have never heard before.” I assume even an evangelical sales religionist can parse that one.

 

[Brian63]

That really does not help the case at all. Different atheists here have a wide history of experiences with theist apologetics, some are newcomers and some are oldtimers. Any kind of civil discussion would be informative to at least someone.

Also, even if we have heard an argument before, so what? Maybe we have heard it but our own critiques of it were flawed, and it actually has more merit than we had previously though. So there is opportunity for learning that way either.

Whether it is new or old, whether he thinks it is new or old, is really not relevant. If someone came up with an argument 500 years ago for God or 5 minutes ago for God, that has no bearing on how sound the argument is. Let's just hear what the best arguments are, regardless of their ages and regardless of how many times it has been breathed before.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

*points to post number*

If they had something good, it'd been posted now.

 

[Rhea]

*points to post number*

If they had something good, it'd been posted now.

Are you saying they don’t send their best people?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

*points to post number*

If they had something good, it'd been posted now.

Are you saying they don’t send their best people?

Actually, I think they did.

 

[Keith&Co.]

*points to post number*

If they had something good, it'd been posted now.

No, no, I've seen posts where theists promise great results by starting with easily dismissed crap, then working their way up to the heavy hitters.
Apparently we atheists get lulled into a false sense of superiority by dismissing the PRATTs, then BAM! Helpless before the unanswerable questions, we convert like the students in the Big Daddy Chick Tract.

So, maybe 1eye should skip to the big guns now.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What have you got that you think none of us has heard in 20 years of study?
Just go with your #1 Most Compelling Evidence Ever - that you think we’ve never heard before.

May take a while.
He was promising to go back and rereview the thread, and that was 130 posts ago. It'll take a while for him to get caught up with this thread's updates since his last appearance.

 

[Brian63]

"If they had something good, it'd been posted now."

That would just as easily apply to your posts too. If you had anything good to post, you would have already done so. Looking at your last ones is very...revealing, let's put it.

Of course, you could retort the same thing applies to mine. Then I could respond that that very comment of yours was necessarily inferior to everything you have already posted, because of that proverb you just declared to be true. Saying something like that may sound cute at first blush, but once you look at it more closely it becomes clearer that it is devoid of depth. In debates, court trials, arguments, conversations, the most helpful knowledge is not always going to be revealed right at the outset. It can take time to get through the grinder.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Santa-like beings with magical powers are not real. That's where I stand.

If you are a person who believes Santa-like beings are not unreal, please give me your best evidence. That's evidence, not argument. To paraphrase an old poster, "Show me your Santa-like being."

Thank-you.

 

[1ICrying]

That's all I got for now. Thank you all who are contributing to this lovely thread. I wish that I had the time to correct you all : ) but I just don't have the time.

But I'll be back.

1i

This is the voice I am hearing in every one of 1I’s posts.
**yawn**. Another Christiansplainer.
Oh, yawn and grow up and learn how to be civil.

The first time you quoted me here, Rhea, you left out the happy face after that comment. Nicely edited. Here though, you can see that there is a little happy face, which to some, would mean that I am joking.

Oh yawn. Wake up girl!

 

[1ICrying]

That's okay though. Guess what? You can all now consider yourselves saved. Call it a loophole, call it God's promise, but I think that you (at least, those of you who were successful in sending me back to the Bible for answers) have inadvertently saved yourselves. You might not believe it, but at least I can rest a little easier.

For you see my friends, in this time I have been away, I did go back to the Bible, looking for answers. And I found that I still have a lot to learn. I found that I have been quite off base with a lot of my actions and thinking. I found myself convicted like never before, to the point where I was thinking - "now I surely have been re-born."

And I'm not making that up. And one of the main things I learned is that I probably should just shut my mouth and get off this stage, because I really don't know all there is to know about what the Bible says - as a teacher should.

James 3: 1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgement."

Yikes!


Now, I don't really want to shut down this thread, but I will just add to my Warning label - the Christian contained herein is just one of the congregation - not a member of the Clergy, or even the choir. In fact, I haven't been to Church in years actually (Gasp), because I work Sundays. This is one of the things I was convicted on, as well as a host of other less than perfect actions. I have never read the Bible from cover to cover. (gasp). I've read it forward and backwards, again and again, in parts, but don't ask me about what happens in the middle of Numbers. I did mention that I would be hard pressed to name all of the disciples, so I guess you had an inkling that I was not an official member of the clergy.

Anyhow, you sent me back to my Bible, and you have been right. I am not a good teacher. I am not doing a good job of convincing you of any of this. You are also right - it is more of a long distance run, and I have been too lazy for too long.

One other thing I read was this:

James 5:19
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

As much as you all have helped turn this sinner from his errors, I hope that God will keep his promise and apply this verse to you.


And that is how one saves a group of atheists. Ta-da. You saved yourselves by saving me.

Anyhow, I'm going to consider it as such

The greatest big punch I have for ya'll, is the verses contained in the Bible. Go back and give them another read. Even if you're not a card carrying, Jesus died on the cross and was raised again, Christian - , I'm sure you'll agree, it is a book full of wisdom that does nothing less than push all of us towards betterment. What's wrong with that. Do good, flee from evil. Do not be perverse. Do not return evil for good. Are you so opposed to that?

The other thing I've been thinking - at the core of the Christian faith, is the believing that Jesus did die for our sins, was raised again,and that if we believe that, we will go to heaven. Forgot one second about all the other 'what ifs' (Noah, Eden, Jonah, Exile) and just ask yourself - do you have direct proof that Jesus did not rise again, and is the Messiah (as was prophesized)? If not - if you can't totally one hundred percent rule that out, then how about you just throw it in the 'could be' pile. And from there, maybe it will end up in the 'hey, it really could be' pile, and so on.

Anyhow, one thing at a time. You've all been saved, so let's take a breather.

Peace.

1I(eye)crying (the other joyful)

 

[1ICrying]

Food for thought / words which convicted me

James 1: 21-26

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls. Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves. For anyone who hears the word but does not carry it out is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror,and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so— not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer— he will be blessed in what he does. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless.…


As much as I do feel convicted by this, it is only then that I once again feel joyful (increasingly so) by the fact that I have my faith in Jesus, and his 'perfect law of freedom' mentioned here - which I would describe as "do unto your neighbour, only as you would want done to you" (and if you do screw up - you're still forgiven).

A comforting belief

 

[Brian63]

1ICrying, if a person has read the Bible and has not held it in such high esteem or as historically credible as you do, do you think it is rational for that person to just say at least "I don't know?" To that person, nothing about the Bible has any smell of divine origin. No whiff.

We can write fiction novels that contain good moral values and lessons. We can write fictional stories with fictional characters that are placed in actual, real historical settings. Even if a person thought that the Bible had some good lessons, and if some portions of it were likely to be fairly historical, that similarly would not mean that the people who wrote the stories were divinely inspired. Can you see how it is rational to not be convinced by that rather meager (at best) evidence?

 

[Keith&Co.]

The first time you quoted me here, Rhea, you left out the happy face after that comment. Nicely edited. Here though, you can see that there is a little happy face, which to some, would mean that I am joking.

You know, or should know, or could reasonably be expected to have noticed that saying 'Just kidding' doesn't always work, if what you said was really inappropriate. Just a thought.

 

[Keith&Co.]

That's okay though. Guess what? You can all now consider yourselves saved. Call it a loophole, call it God's promise, but I think that you (at least, those of you who were successful in sending me back to the Bible for answers) have inadvertently saved yourselves.

So, in the space of 30 posts, your position has been that it's not our choice, it's god's, but it's also ours and we can make the choice, and now it's not a choice but something we can do by accident.

Yeah, this is convincing.

James 5:19
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

But I would tend to doubt that the 'multitude' of sins includes not for one second believing there are any gods, or that Jesus was authorized to speak for one.

And that is how one saves a group of atheists. Ta-da. You saved yourselves by saving me.

Anyhow, I'm going to consider it as such

Well, of course. I've always thought you were here for your sake, anyway.
If this comforts you, more power to you.

I'm sure you'll agree, it is a book full of wisdom that does nothing less than push all of us towards betterment. What's wrong with that. Do good, flee from evil. Do not be perverse. Do not return evil for good. Are you so opposed to that?

Except people have used this book to justify slavery. An entire side of the US Civil War thought they were on God's said, keeping to the proper use of the Negro, and enslaving him.
People have also used it to justify any number of crimes, discrimination, segregation, violence, and thinking they were right in God's eyes.
So, no, I do not agree that it's a good book, as people shoehorn it into situations that are drastically different from what the authors knew and experienced, and just pick the parts that appeal to them.

just ask yourself - do you have direct proof that Jesus did not rise again, and is the Messiah (as was prophesized)?

Well, yes, he did not fulfill the prophecies for the messiah. He did not kick the invaders out of Israel, for one thing. Kind of obvious one, there.
That was easy.

If not - if you can't totally one hundred percent rule that out,

But I did.

then how about you just throw it in the 'could be' pile. And from there, maybe it will end up in the 'hey, it really could be' pile, and so on.

That is really not how it works.
Is that how you know whether you should shop for ketchup?

When you go to your fridge looking for ketchup, do you look on one shelf only? And if it's not there, tell yourself 'I do not have proof that there is no ketchup anywhere else in the house.' and decide there might be a bottle in the pantry, so you don't need to buy more?
Does this match your approach to anything? Ever?

 

[southernhybrid]

If you're done here 1I, I wish you a happy life and hope you will find ways to help others. I don't need religion to realize that giving and helping is much more satisfying than being greedy, and mean. I learned a long time ago, there is power in mythology and while many atheists don't agree with me, I fully understand that some people are motivated by having a myth to inspire them.

Before, I end, I will give you one example of how a Christian who was inspired by his beliefs to be a better person.

About 15 years ago, my husband and I had a car accident that left us stranded in a small town about 30 miles away. That was before Lyft and Uber were around and there was no taxi service available. We thought about who we might call, when a man overheard us and offered to drive us home, which meant he would be taking us at least 50 miles out of his way. He was obviously a decent person and had just finished a meal with his family, who had driven another car to the restaurant, so we felt save with him.

During the ride, he told us that he had been inspired by his preacher to be a better person, to do more good works for others, so when he heard our situation, he wanted to help us out. He didn't preach to us and we didn't tell him we were atheists. We offered him money, but he refused to take it. He was an example of how religion sometimes inspires people to do good works.

I don't need to be inspired by religion to do things for others, because I know that there is joy to be found by helping others. But, if it takes religion to motivate people to be better, I have no problem with that. If you don't judge me based on what I belief, then I won't judge you either.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The other thing I've been thinking - at the core of the Christian faith, is the believing that Jesus did die for our sins, was raised again,and that if we believe that, we will go to heaven. Forgot one second about all the other 'what ifs' (Noah, Eden, Jonah, Exile) and just ask yourself - do you have direct proof that Jesus did not rise again, and is the Messiah (as was prophesized)? If not - if you can't totally one hundred percent rule that out, then how about you just throw it in the 'could be' pile. And from there, maybe it will end up in the 'hey, it really could be' pile, and so on.

Anyhow, one thing at a time. You've all been saved, so let's take a breather.

Peace.

1I(eye)crying (the other joyful)

And with Pascal's Wager, I have BINGO.

Though I do like the uniqueness of the, 'I haven't convinced you of anything, but don't worry because I won the argument.'