*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[southernhybrid]

Here's a thought. For the atheists. If not God, then what? Do you guys all believe that there was just this big explosion, rocks and random stuff went flying out, and then, given a billion years, everything just fell into place, by accident. I think not. After a billion years, a rock is still a rock. You are not explaining the part about the spark of life. Where did that originate? You are not explaining the part about the code (ie. DNA; laws of mathmatics and physics) that was obviously planted into everything to make it work. Where did that code come from? I say God.

I can't wrap my head around the possibility that some supernatural creature commonly known as god, always existed and had the power to create a universe and somehow magically started life. That is just crazy talk. I don't pretend to have all the answers but just because I don't have all the answers doesn't mean that I'm going to believe some primitive concept such as god did it! And, where did this god come from and why hasn't she spoken to me? And, if you must have a god belief, how do you know that you chose the right one?

Why do you need this mythology? What does it do for you? I have had a lovely, interesting life without it. I've overcome many challenges during my youth. I have personally benefitted from a stressful but rewarding career as a nurse, as it gave me experiences with all kinds of people that I would never have otherwise had the opportunity to know. Now that I'm retired, I have more time to socialize with good people, and sometimes, I experience the joy of helping friends in need. There is nothing better than that. It's better than having material things. It's better than being the most intelligent person in the room. No gods are required to live a happy, life full of joy!

And, if I was capable of having a god belief, I certainly wouldn't choose the Christian god. It would have to be a much kinder, more emotionally stable god who didn't judge her creation harshly for not recognizing her existence. The god of the Bible is an immoral mythological creature. He is angry and vengeful. He demands that his people obey him, regardless of how wicked his requests are. He commits mass murder and denies women equality with men. He is disgusting, but then again, he's just a myth based on an ancient culture. Assuming that Jesus is the god of the NT, he is sometimes nicer than the OT god, but there are times when he too can be a real asshole. He preaches love and tolerance on the one hand, but then threatens to punish those who don't worship him on the other hand, assuming you believe that the KJV of the Bible is the most correct one. He tells people that as long as they ask forgiveness, it doesn't matter what terrible things they have done in the past. How insane is that? These Bible gods appear to suffer from psychopathy. Fortunately, they are just pretend, like Zeus or any of the gods from other myths. Why can't you see that, when it's so obvious to me!

There are religious people who dedicate their lives to promoting social justice. I have a lot of respect for them. They don't try to convince others to believe like them. They simply set an example for others, as to what it means to be a good person. They cherry pick the most positive aspects of their mythos. They realize that giving is usually more joyful and satisfying that receiving. If they need a god myth to motivate them, I won't judge them for that because a person's character is what is important to me.

That's my Sunday sermon.

 

[Learner]

Just "wood, pitch, a window, a door, and big."

Good point . No doubt that the lack of more precise details was the intention that only ONE Ark was to be built and assuming that is was not intended for Jews or Christians to build more Arks in future.

God gave Noah detailed but secret plans.

"No doubt", you say.

How'd you figure that out?

There is no secret plans, I thought you would at least figure out (not believe) that the concept of God means He knows a bit more or two on design -, who would also provide the knowledge (expert level) to "survive" such a flood. The not-so secret plans i.e. technical details doesn't seem necessary for the bible with the much bigger picture, however what it does do,even with the little technical details, "describes" the Ark being this size wide, that height tall and this length so and so long. Important imo should someone feel the need to search for its remains by the description etc. you know the score.

 

[abaddon]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

 

[Learner]

God gave Noah detailed but secret plans.

"No doubt", you say.

How'd you figure that out?

He didn't. He will grasp at straws to keep from drowning in a flood of facts and reason. And those straws apparently ain't made of gopherwood either 'cause he's drowning. Where's a miracle when you really need one? You would think that if God existed he would show up to support his followers in times of need.

You probaby wouldn't make an FBI agent in the department when it comes to profiling characters but you're right about the straws not being made from gopher wood.

 

[Learner]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

 

[bigfield]

There is no secret plans, I thought you would at least figure out (not believe) that the concept of God means He knows a bit more or two on design -, who would also provide the knowledge (expert level) to "survive" such a flood.

There's nothing logical about the Genesis story, so don't expect me to reasonably extrapolate from the text.

If you want to bring reason into this, I'll have to start asking you reasonable questions like "why does the all-powerful god, who spoke the fucking universe into existence, need to put Noah through all this trouble in the first place?"

How did you rule out alternative explanations, like:
- Noah was 600 years old, and probably spent at least one summer building arks with grampa Methuselah
- Noah got some angels or giants from a labour hire company
- Noah just got help from a lot of other people, like in that Russell Crowe movie, Master and Commander
- Noah bought a gopherwood single-window ark kit from the general store and followed the assembly instructions
- It's just a folk tale that no-one older than 7 is supposed to believe

 

[Learner]

There is no secret plans, I thought you would at least figure out (not believe) that the concept of God means He knows a bit more or two on design -, who would also provide the knowledge (expert level) to "survive" such a flood.

There's nothing logical about the Genesis story, so don't expect me to reasonably extrapolate from the text.

Well, its not the everday occurance, not the usual experience we can identify with today .

If you want to bring reason into this, I'll have to start asking you reasonable questions like "why does the all-powerful god, who spoke the fucking universe into existence, need to put Noah through all this trouble in the first place?"

Who know's why this route? You'd think the writers would have made up the alternative than go through all that, forgetting or not realising: Who's going to easily believe the story thats in place now? (although God seemed to know Noah Could do it, and it was apparently done.)

How did you rule out alternative explanations, like:
- Noah was 600 years old, and probably spent at least one summer building arks with grampa Methuselah
- Noah got some angels or giants from a labour hire company

About a year or a little over to build the Ark,which is a good amount of time to prepare. Any difficulties Noah calls the heavenly helpline.

- Noah just got help from a lot of other people, like in that Russell Crowe movie, Master and Commander

But God is in the bible picture, Noah will have the support.

- Noah bought a gopherwood single-window ark kit from the general store and followed the assembly instructions

100% flood proof, the product claims.

- It's just a folk tale that no-one older than 7 is supposed to believe

Fair viewpoint.. Its not for everyone.

 

[bigfield]

Well, its not the everday occurance, not the usual experience we can identify with today.

I don't know about that. I find it quite easy to relate to a 600 year old man and an insane god.

If you want to bring reason into this, I'll have to start asking you reasonable questions like "why does the all-powerful god, who spoke the fucking universe into existence, need to put Noah through all this trouble in the first place?"

Who know's why this route? You'd think the writers would have made up the alternative than go through all that, forgetting or not realising: Who's going to easily believe the story thats in place now? (although God seemed to know Noah Could do it, and it was apparently done.)

Try writing that again, because this doesn't make sense. Are you suggesting that the flood story is so incredible, it must be true?

 

[Learner]

I don't know about that. I find it quite easy to relate to a 600 year old man and an insane god.

Who know's why this route? You'd think the writers would have made up the alternative than go through all that, forgetting or not realising: Who's going to easily believe the story thats in place now? (although God seemed to know Noah Could do it, and it was apparently done.)

Try writing that again, because this doesn't make sense. Are you suggesting that the flood story is so incredible, it must be true?

I was saying it in a viewpoint similar to yours. (The flood I believe is true, is my VP, to clarify)

 

[bigfield]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

What kind of explanation did it take to convince you that the flood story is true?

I like to think that you would have the same sort of questions we have. The story is so full of plot holes that it's more holes than plot.

 

[abaddon]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

What kind of explanation did it take to convince you that the flood story is true?

I like to think that you would have the same sort of questions we have. The story is so full of plot holes that it's more holes than plot.

Learner,

What you wrote about "would be more to do with me" suggests the doubts are like a personal failure. To help overcome your incomplete understanding, you read how other Christians explain the plot holes. The "net is a blessing", as if the community of believers believing the same thing is itself what matters. They've helped you overcome the doubt.

So the plot holes bug you but if the community of believers work together and come to an agreement on what it all means then those plot holes stop being a problem. So, I suspect what convinces you is the people you trust most, and whose fellowship you want to belong with the most, all think it's true.

Is that our problem too then? If we doubt the tale it's from incomplete information? We're not working hard enough to find a way past the doubt?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is that our problem too then? If we doubt the tale it's from incomplete information? We're not working hard enough to find a way past the doubt?

That's a persistent accusation, that we start at rejecting miracles, and certainty, and common sense, and what we KNOW to be true... that we have an agenda forcing us to manufacture doubt.
But, then, it appears to us that Learner has to manufacture belief to erase natural doubt.

Weird.

 

[skepticalbip]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

That, to me, sounds like a really odd method of determining 'reality'. Accepting that everything in a book is absolute truth and if we don't understand it then it is just a matter of finding someone who can explain why it is TRUTH. Does this thinking apply to anything written - that it is TRUE because it is written? Is this akin to claiming that nothing untrue is allowed on the internet?

 

[Rhea]

: Who's going to easily believe the story thats in place now? (.

Well, you, apparently. For one.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Does this thinking apply to anything written - that it is TRUE because it is written?

No. I have had a tew people endorse Hovind's or Strobel's apologetics, which they are unable to discuss, or even fully recount.
It is enough for them to know there IS an answer, that someone offers an argument that supports their esired conclusion. Thry don't need to undrerstand it, and never question it.
It's like when the guy administering the test has the answer key, but is lazy. .
"I don't understand question seven?"
"Ah. Well, just remember that the answer is C."

Won't do much good if you try to explain your answers to another student, but it got you thru the test.

All that matters is the right answer is provided. How good the support is is something only critics will ask.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

That, to me, sounds like a really odd method of determining 'reality'. Accepting that everything in a book is absolute truth and if we don't understand it then it is just a matter of finding someone who can explain why it is TRUTH. Does this thinking apply to anything written - that it is TRUE because it is written? Is this akin to claiming that nothing untrue is allowed on the internet?

What, you expect the inerrant word of God to be sensibly understandable without third parties?

 

[Learner]

Learner,

I'm just curious about something... Has it occurred to you once or twice that the flood is a strange story that stretches the bounds of believability? Do you feel skeptical about it sometimes, before reminding yourself it's in the bible and therefore must be true?

Yes quite a few times before, just as few other things in the bible. If there are any doubts it would be more to do with me, understanding correctly certain passages and contexts, I have to look for those from others who have better explanations, who in turn learn from others vice-vera. The net is a blessing

What kind of explanation did it take to convince you that the flood story is true?

I like to think that you would have the same sort of questions we have. The story is so full of plot holes that it's more holes than plot.

I was convinced by other parts of the bible,first, the flood automatically follows so to speak - no believing in one part and not the other. I used to think that the NT was totally different and at odds/ disconnected with the OT, with the violence and so on . This was of course before being a born-again. It all came down to Jesus in my case, i.e. validating the OT.

I don't know what some would call it, the holy spirit sent out into believers thing but I have a somewhat better / hightened sense to the scriptures than I've ever had previously, not saying more than anyone or am I claiming to be anything more than that,to which I think is normal for a lot of bellievers but it makes a lot of sense to me IOWs. I have experienced personal things, noticable after a while, certainly not worth the mention in discussions let alone to debate with. I am convinced.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What kind of explanation did it take to convince you that the flood story is true?

I like to think that you would have the same sort of questions we have. The story is so full of plot holes that it's more holes than plot.

I was convinced by other parts of the bible,first, the flood automatically follows so to speak - no believing in one part and not the other. I used to think that the NT was totally different and at odds/ disconnected with the OT, with the violence and so on . This was of course before being a born-again. It all came down to Jesus in my case, i.e. validating the OT.

I don't know what some would call it, the holy spirit sent out into believers thing but I have a somewhat better / hightened sense to the scriptures than I've ever had previously, not saying more than anyone or am I claiming to be anything more than that,to which I think is normal for a lot of bellievers but it makes a lot of sense to me IOWs. I have experienced personal things, noticable after a while, certainly not worth the mention in discussions let alone to debate with. I am convinced.

A lot of text just to say ‘I believe because I want to.’

 

[Learner]

What kind of explanation did it take to convince you that the flood story is true?

I like to think that you would have the same sort of questions we have. The story is so full of plot holes that it's more holes than plot.

Learner,

What you wrote about "would be more to do with me" suggests the doubts are like a personal failure. To help overcome your incomplete understanding, you read how other Christians explain the plot holes. The "net is a blessing", as if the community of believers believing the same thing is itself what matters. They've helped you overcome the doubt.

So the plot holes bug you but if the community of believers work together and come to an agreement on what it all means then those plot holes stop being a problem. So, I suspect what convinces you is the people you trust most, and whose fellowship you want to belong with the most, all think it's true.

Is that our problem too then? If we doubt the tale it's from incomplete information? We're not working hard enough to find a way past the doubt?

As I was saying to Bigfield, that I believe that all parts are true (give or take minor errors e.g. a word substitution from translation). Even if I didn't understand the context of a particular verse . These are not pot holes.

 

[Learner]

A lot of text just to say ‘I believe because I want to.’

Unfortunately I was giving up all the enjoyable things and habits, which I didn't want to, quite hard indeed. I have become boring. What a life eh?

Enough of me whats on for discussion?