Wartime draft vs vaccine mandate

[Metaphor]

Being unvaccinated is akin to driving drunk, not merely being drunk. Just look at the numbers--it's far more deadly.

"Look at the numbers". Look at what numbers? What are you talking about? What arithmetic calculation have you made?

For fuck's sake being unvaccinated does not equal having and spreading COVID.

The problem with this is that the driving part isn't under your control. Suppose you were in a situation where you might be required to drive at any moment--you can't drink in such a situation. Covid is like that--you can't guarantee you're not going to catch it.

Nobody can 'guarantee' that they're not going to catch it. What's your point?

If you catch COVID, you should quarantine at home until you return a negative test. Then, vaccinated or not, you should not be under CONTINUAL HOUSE ARREST.

Also, people who have had COVID have immunity that is at least the equivalent of the vaccine. Why isn't having had COVID being treated as similar to being vaccinated for the vaccine mandate believers?

I would object to the person who doesn't have the MMR shot being allowed in society. It's not just themselves they are risking.

You used to be a fake libertarian, Loren. Now you're not even faking it.

 

[RVonse]

As for COVID19 (COVID-zero is an impossibility. Google how COVID19 was named) disappearing? Well, not with idiots telling others that being vaccinated violates their personal rights

Being forced to be vaccinated or else the government makes your life wretched and impossible does violate your personal rights.

The Supreme Court settled this long ago--vaccine mandates are legal. They didn't even used to be all that controversial until now we have a death cult trying to kill as many people as possible.

So long as you don't endanger anyone else you're free to not be vaccinated. Your right to a disease is like a fist--it stops at the other guy's nose. I have no problem at all with the government making you quit engaging in biological warfare.

 

[Toni]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The analogy breaks down here, but the people who take Pfizer-Undrunk (and so can't get drunk) also get really good cars (immune systems) that prevent serious injury and death from accidents. And yet they still insist that the Pfizer-Undrunk refusers are perpetual dangers to everyone, and deserve never to drive, even if they are sober (don't have COVID).

Toni exposed her muddled thinking on this by talking about houses being in medical quarantine if they had scarlet fever. Funnily enough, a household where somebody has COVID should be in medical quarantine.

But households where nobody has COVID but instead contains an unvaccinated person should not be in pre-emptive, perpetual lockdown.



MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.

It may seem irrelevant to your quest to enhance Freedom, but, out of curiosity, why do you think people should refuse vaccination? It protects both themselves and others; what do you think the drawbacks are?

Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.

I hope you can take time to answer these questions. Answers would help us take your position more seriously.

That you cannot take seriously the position 'the government should not place people who refuse vaccination under house arrest forever' says a lot about your own attitude and how seriously it should be taken.

No nation will ever get to 100% vaccination unless people are kidnapped and strapped to a gurney. Even if that were happening, presumably a network of corruption would form where people could get an 'officially already vaccinated' status without being vaccinated. Society does not need to punish people who do not want to get vaccinated. We just need to persuade as many people as possible.

And I tell you what: the prospect of somebody's life being made wretched and miserable and plunging them into poverty might get people to change their minds about getting the vaccine, but it won't have persuaded them. It would be like saying a bank robber had persuaded the teller to hand over the money in the register with the irrefutable logic of his gun.

Unvaccinated people comprise the bulk of those who become ill and who are currently filling hospitals, diverting resources that could otherwise be used to address the medical needs of non-COVID patients. In that way, they literally are putting the lives of everyone else at risk. Anyone can be in a car accident, fall off a ladder, have a heart attack, break a leg, get cancer—dozens of things.

Mutations of the COVID-19 virus are arising much more rapidly than they would otherwise because of people who are refusing to be vaccinated. This endangers people who have been vaccinated because eventually, a mutation will arise that cannot be controlled by vaccines currently in use.

Perhaps things are different in Australia, but here, health care workers have been working overtime for a year abd a half—long, difficult, heart breaking shifts where deaths are common, multiple times a day events. Health care workers are exhausted and traumatized by the needless death abd suffering they see. Despite the vaccinations and PPE, they are more at risk of break through infections because of their increased exposure. And they risk bringing home a mutated version of the virus to their families.

Meanwhile, people remain unvaccinated, go about their lives. Sometimes, they get sick—sick enough to beg for Facebook prayers—and if they recover, they unabashedly go right back to their lives, scoffing at vaccinations abd eschewing masks, believing in their own strength and superior immune system.

Abd the rest of us are being extra careful, curtailing our activities because the delta variant is breaking through and mu is lurking and who knows what is coming down the pike. I spent months essentially in house arrest, barely going out to get essentials during off hours in a small grocery with good protocols and compliance. I really don’t want to be pushed into that again but it’s getting close. I think I felt safe enough to be unmasked for…almost 2 months. Out of the last 19 months. Don’t talk to me if the unfairness of ‘house arrest.’ I know how unfair it is. I got to live it and am damn close to it now because of selfish asshokes a d the even more selfish arrogant ads hikes who cry free dumb

 

[Metaphor]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The analogy breaks down here, but the people who take Pfizer-Undrunk (and so can't get drunk) also get really good cars (immune systems) that prevent serious injury and death from accidents. And yet they still insist that the Pfizer-Undrunk refusers are perpetual dangers to everyone, and deserve never to drive, even if they are sober (don't have COVID).

Toni exposed her muddled thinking on this by talking about houses being in medical quarantine if they had scarlet fever. Funnily enough, a household where somebody has COVID should be in medical quarantine.

But households where nobody has COVID but instead contains an unvaccinated person should not be in pre-emptive, perpetual lockdown.



MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.



Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.



That you cannot take seriously the position 'the government should not place people who refuse vaccination under house arrest forever' says a lot about your own attitude and how seriously it should be taken.

No nation will ever get to 100% vaccination unless people are kidnapped and strapped to a gurney. Even if that were happening, presumably a network of corruption would form where people could get an 'officially already vaccinated' status without being vaccinated. Society does not need to punish people who do not want to get vaccinated. We just need to persuade as many people as possible.

And I tell you what: the prospect of somebody's life being made wretched and miserable and plunging them into poverty might get people to change their minds about getting the vaccine, but it won't have persuaded them. It would be like saying a bank robber had persuaded the teller to hand over the money in the register with the irrefutable logic of his gun.

Unvaccinated people comprise the bulk of those who become ill and who are currently filling hospitals, diverting resources that could otherwise be used to address the medical needs of non-COVID patients. In that way, they literally are putting the lives of everyone else at risk. Anyone can be in a car accident, fall off a ladder, have a heart attack, break a leg, get cancer—dozens of things.

Mutations of the COVID-19 virus are arising much more rapidly than they would otherwise because of people who are refusing to be vaccinated. This endangers people who have been vaccinated because eventually, a mutation will arise that cannot be controlled by vaccines currently in use.

Perhaps things are different in Australia, but here, health care workers have been working overtime for a year abd a half—long, difficult, heart breaking shifts where deaths are common, multiple times a day events. Health care workers are exhausted and traumatized by the needless death abd suffering they see. Despite the vaccinations and PPE, they are more at risk of break through infections because of their increased exposure. And they risk bringing home a mutated version of the virus to their families.

Meanwhile, people remain unvaccinated, go about their lives. Sometimes, they get sick—sick enough to beg for Facebook prayers—and if they recover, they unabashedly go right back to their lives, scoffing at vaccinations abd eschewing masks, believing in their own strength and superior immune system.

Abd the rest of us are being extra careful, curtailing our activities because the delta variant is breaking through and mu is lurking and who knows what is coming down the pike. I spent months essentially in house arrest, barely going out to get essentials during off hours in a small grocery with good protocols and compliance. I really don’t want to be pushed into that again but it’s getting close. I think I felt safe enough to be unmasked for…almost 2 months. Out of the last 19 months. Don’t talk to me if the unfairness of ‘house arrest.’ I know how unfair it is. I got to live it and am damn close to it now because of selfish asshokes a d the even more selfish arrogant ads hikes who cry free dumb

You don't get to put people under perpetual house arrest because they might get ill. Or rather, if you and enough of your smug, sadistic, authoritarian countrymen agree with you, you probably will get to do it.

 

[Toni]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The analogy breaks down here, but the people who take Pfizer-Undrunk (and so can't get drunk) also get really good cars (immune systems) that prevent serious injury and death from accidents. And yet they still insist that the Pfizer-Undrunk refusers are perpetual dangers to everyone, and deserve never to drive, even if they are sober (don't have COVID).

Toni exposed her muddled thinking on this by talking about houses being in medical quarantine if they had scarlet fever. Funnily enough, a household where somebody has COVID should be in medical quarantine.

But households where nobody has COVID but instead contains an unvaccinated person should not be in pre-emptive, perpetual lockdown.



MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.



Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.



That you cannot take seriously the position 'the government should not place people who refuse vaccination under house arrest forever' says a lot about your own attitude and how seriously it should be taken.

No nation will ever get to 100% vaccination unless people are kidnapped and strapped to a gurney. Even if that were happening, presumably a network of corruption would form where people could get an 'officially already vaccinated' status without being vaccinated. Society does not need to punish people who do not want to get vaccinated. We just need to persuade as many people as possible.

And I tell you what: the prospect of somebody's life being made wretched and miserable and plunging them into poverty might get people to change their minds about getting the vaccine, but it won't have persuaded them. It would be like saying a bank robber had persuaded the teller to hand over the money in the register with the irrefutable logic of his gun.

Unvaccinated people comprise the bulk of those who become ill and who are currently filling hospitals, diverting resources that could otherwise be used to address the medical needs of non-COVID patients. In that way, they literally are putting the lives of everyone else at risk. Anyone can be in a car accident, fall off a ladder, have a heart attack, break a leg, get cancer—dozens of things.

Mutations of the COVID-19 virus are arising much more rapidly than they would otherwise because of people who are refusing to be vaccinated. This endangers people who have been vaccinated because eventually, a mutation will arise that cannot be controlled by vaccines currently in use.

Perhaps things are different in Australia, but here, health care workers have been working overtime for a year abd a half—long, difficult, heart breaking shifts where deaths are common, multiple times a day events. Health care workers are exhausted and traumatized by the needless death abd suffering they see. Despite the vaccinations and PPE, they are more at risk of break through infections because of their increased exposure. And they risk bringing home a mutated version of the virus to their families.

Meanwhile, people remain unvaccinated, go about their lives. Sometimes, they get sick—sick enough to beg for Facebook prayers—and if they recover, they unabashedly go right back to their lives, scoffing at vaccinations abd eschewing masks, believing in their own strength and superior immune system.

Abd the rest of us are being extra careful, curtailing our activities because the delta variant is breaking through and mu is lurking and who knows what is coming down the pike. I spent months essentially in house arrest, barely going out to get essentials during off hours in a small grocery with good protocols and compliance. I really don’t want to be pushed into that again but it’s getting close. I think I felt safe enough to be unmasked for…almost 2 months. Out of the last 19 months. Don’t talk to me if the unfairness of ‘house arrest.’ I know how unfair it is. I got to live it and am damn close to it now because of selfish asshokes a d the even more selfish arrogant ads hikes who cry free dumb

You don't get to put people under perpetual house arrest because they might get ill. Or rather, if you and enough of your smug, sadistic, authoritarian countrymen agree with you, you probably will get to do it.

That's NOT why people could be confined to their homes until they get vaccinated. It's not because THEY might get sick. It's because THEY could well be infected and spread the virus to people who CANNOT be vaccinated--you know: small children, cancer patients. Your niece. AND because they are not vaccinated, they may well be infected and asymptomatic and the virus can find a happy home to mutate and develop into more vaccine resistant strains, endangering all of us. ALL OF HUMANITY.

Because of their arrogance and ignorance. So stop apologizing for them.

The truly ironic thing is that Australia has much more strict lockdown policies in place than does the US. Talk about smug, arrogant and hypocritical.

 

[Metaphor]

That's NOT why people could be confined to their homes until they get vaccinated. It's not because THEY might get sick.

So can people who are vaccinated. So what? Have you locked down people who do not get the flu vax every year? You know people get sick and die from the flu every year, right?

It's because THEY could well be infected and spread the virus to people who CANNOT be vaccinated--you know: small children, cancer patients. Your niece. AND because they are not vaccinated, they may well be infected and asymptomatic and the virus can find a happy home to mutate and develop into more vaccine resistant strains, endangering all of us. ALL OF HUMANITY.

Vaccinated people may well be infected and asymptomatic. Indeed, because vaccination reduces severe response, it may well be that the average vaccinated person who contracts COVID is much less likely to know it than the average unvaccinated person.

Because of their arrogance and ignorance. So stop apologizing for them.

I'm not apologising for anyone. I am saying you should not place healthy people under house arrest forever because they refuse a particular medical procedure.

The truly ironic thing is that Australia has much more strict lockdown policies in place than does the US. Talk about smug, arrogant and hypocritical.

What on earth would be hypocritical about it? I am not a State Premier or the Prime Minister. I do not make legislation in Australia.

Though I agree Australia has been egregiously authoritarian in its COVID response.

 

[ZiprHead]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Imagine Pfizer had formulated an injection (called Pfizer-Undrunk) that prevented you from being drunk (or, rather, it effectively removed 90% of the alcohol in anything you consumed, so that although you could get drunk with a great deal of effort, it was unlikely). Toni's house arrest proposal is equivalent to 'anybody not taking this Pfizer-Undrunk jab is forbidden from driving--whether they get drunk or not. They are not allowed to drive even when they are sober. Similarly, 'house arrest' for not getting a COVID vaccination is 'you're not allowed to go outside, even though you don't have COVID'.

The analogy breaks down here, but the people who take Pfizer-Undrunk (and so can't get drunk) also get really good cars (immune systems) that prevent serious injury and death from accidents. And yet they still insist that the Pfizer-Undrunk refusers are perpetual dangers to everyone, and deserve never to drive, even if they are sober (don't have COVID).

Toni exposed her muddled thinking on this by talking about houses being in medical quarantine if they had scarlet fever. Funnily enough, a household where somebody has COVID should be in medical quarantine.

But households where nobody has COVID but instead contains an unvaccinated person should not be in pre-emptive, perpetual lockdown.



MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.



Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.



That you cannot take seriously the position 'the government should not place people who refuse vaccination under house arrest forever' says a lot about your own attitude and how seriously it should be taken.

No nation will ever get to 100% vaccination unless people are kidnapped and strapped to a gurney. Even if that were happening, presumably a network of corruption would form where people could get an 'officially already vaccinated' status without being vaccinated. Society does not need to punish people who do not want to get vaccinated. We just need to persuade as many people as possible.

And I tell you what: the prospect of somebody's life being made wretched and miserable and plunging them into poverty might get people to change their minds about getting the vaccine, but it won't have persuaded them. It would be like saying a bank robber had persuaded the teller to hand over the money in the register with the irrefutable logic of his gun.

Unvaccinated people comprise the bulk of those who become ill and who are currently filling hospitals, diverting resources that could otherwise be used to address the medical needs of non-COVID patients. In that way, they literally are putting the lives of everyone else at risk. Anyone can be in a car accident, fall off a ladder, have a heart attack, break a leg, get cancer—dozens of things.

Mutations of the COVID-19 virus are arising much more rapidly than they would otherwise because of people who are refusing to be vaccinated. This endangers people who have been vaccinated because eventually, a mutation will arise that cannot be controlled by vaccines currently in use.

Perhaps things are different in Australia, but here, health care workers have been working overtime for a year abd a half—long, difficult, heart breaking shifts where deaths are common, multiple times a day events. Health care workers are exhausted and traumatized by the needless death abd suffering they see. Despite the vaccinations and PPE, they are more at risk of break through infections because of their increased exposure. And they risk bringing home a mutated version of the virus to their families.

Meanwhile, people remain unvaccinated, go about their lives. Sometimes, they get sick—sick enough to beg for Facebook prayers—and if they recover, they unabashedly go right back to their lives, scoffing at vaccinations abd eschewing masks, believing in their own strength and superior immune system.

Abd the rest of us are being extra careful, curtailing our activities because the delta variant is breaking through and mu is lurking and who knows what is coming down the pike. I spent months essentially in house arrest, barely going out to get essentials during off hours in a small grocery with good protocols and compliance. I really don’t want to be pushed into that again but it’s getting close. I think I felt safe enough to be unmasked for…almost 2 months. Out of the last 19 months. Don’t talk to me if the unfairness of ‘house arrest.’ I know how unfair it is. I got to live it and am damn close to it now because of selfish asshokes a d the even more selfish arrogant ads hikes who cry free dumb

You don't get to put people under perpetual house arrest because they might get ill. Or rather, if you and enough of your smug, sadistic, authoritarian countrymen agree with you, you probably will get to do it.

This can all be avoided by taking the shot.

BTW, hyperbole much?

 

[Toni]

So can people who are vaccinated. So what? Have you locked down people who do not get the flu vax every year? You know people get sick and die from the flu every year, right?



Vaccinated people may well be infected and asymptomatic. Indeed, because vaccination reduces severe response, it may well be that the average vaccinated person who contracts COVID is much less likely to know it than the average unvaccinated person.

Because of their arrogance and ignorance. So stop apologizing for them.

I'm not apologising for anyone. I am saying you should not place healthy people under house arrest forever because they refuse a particular medical procedure.

The truly ironic thing is that Australia has much more strict lockdown policies in place than does the US. Talk about smug, arrogant and hypocritical.

What on earth would be hypocritical about it? I am not a State Premier or the Prime Minister. I do not make legislation in Australia.

Though I agree Australia has been egregiously authoritarian in its COVID response.

What kind of death cult do you belong to that 1500 deaths and counting is insufficient?

 

[Metaphor]

So can people who are vaccinated. So what? Have you locked down people who do not get the flu vax every year? You know people get sick and die from the flu every year, right?



Vaccinated people may well be infected and asymptomatic. Indeed, because vaccination reduces severe response, it may well be that the average vaccinated person who contracts COVID is much less likely to know it than the average unvaccinated person.


I'm not apologising for anyone. I am saying you should not place healthy people under house arrest forever because they refuse a particular medical procedure.



What on earth would be hypocritical about it? I am not a State Premier or the Prime Minister. I do not make legislation in Australia.

Though I agree Australia has been egregiously authoritarian in its COVID response.

What kind of death cult do you belong to that 1500 deaths and counting is insufficient?

The same death cult that doesn't ban people from leaving their house if they don't have a flu shot. The same death cult that doesn't ban roads from the car because of the road toll. The same death cult that doesn't kidnap fat people and force them on a diet.

In other words, I do not belong to a death cult.

 

[Metaphor]

You don't get to put people under perpetual house arrest because they might get ill. Or rather, if you and enough of your smug, sadistic, authoritarian countrymen agree with you, you probably will get to do it.

This can all be avoided by taking the shot.

BTW, hyperbole much?

And a bank teller can avoid a bullet entering her brain if she just hands over the money.

 

[Toni]

You don't get to put people under perpetual house arrest because they might get ill. Or rather, if you and enough of your smug, sadistic, authoritarian countrymen agree with you, you probably will get to do it.

This can all be avoided by taking the shot.

BTW, hyperbole much?

And a bank teller can avoid a bullet entering her brain if she just hands over the money.

I believe that is the policy in most banks, in fact. And guess what? Human life saved!

 

[Toni]

So can people who are vaccinated. So what? Have you locked down people who do not get the flu vax every year? You know people get sick and die from the flu every year, right?



Vaccinated people may well be infected and asymptomatic. Indeed, because vaccination reduces severe response, it may well be that the average vaccinated person who contracts COVID is much less likely to know it than the average unvaccinated person.


I'm not apologising for anyone. I am saying you should not place healthy people under house arrest forever because they refuse a particular medical procedure.



What on earth would be hypocritical about it? I am not a State Premier or the Prime Minister. I do not make legislation in Australia.

Though I agree Australia has been egregiously authoritarian in its COVID response.

What kind of death cult do you belong to that 1500 deaths and counting is insufficient?

The same death cult that doesn't ban people from leaving their house if they don't have a flu shot. The same death cult that doesn't ban roads from the car because of the road toll. The same death cult that doesn't kidnap fat people and force them on a diet.

In other words, I do not belong to a death cult.

Yeah. You do.

Also, the part about banning roads from cars doesn't make sense on this side of the world.

 

[laughing dog]

I was also required to undergo specific vaccinations, including an annual flu shot in order to be employed at my former employer. If I were not retired, Covid vaccination would also be required for me. Failure to comply without valid medical documentation supporting such refusal ( severe allergy to vaccine components, chemotherapy, etc.) would mean furlough until such time as the employee complied. Of course no one forced me to work for my former employer.

And under my scenario,no one would be forced to be vaccinated. They simply would not be protected from the consequences of their refusal and simultaneously would protect the general population, including those medically unable to be vaccinated from the selfish idiocy of the vaccine refuseniks.

Note: I mentioned that of course people could receive packages, home delivery or other contact delivery of needed goods, including groceries. No one would starve.

This would provide the best opportunity for preventing the continuing hardships faced by all by the pandemic, including dealing with the inevitable vaccine resistant mutations that arise in unvaccinated people.

Of course people would starve. Some people do not have an income unless they work. And when those people do not pay their rent or their mortgage, they will be evicted. Now, charity food banks still operate, but perhaps they will refuse to serve the unvaccinated too.

As long as we are allowed to come up with fucking ridiculous scenarios, the unvaccinated could go around infecting everyone with a new variant that impervious to the current vaccines and everyone could die. So your position is that everyone will die.

Gee, that was easy and fun.

 

[Metaphor]

The same death cult that doesn't ban people from leaving their house if they don't have a flu shot. The same death cult that doesn't ban roads from the car because of the road toll. The same death cult that doesn't kidnap fat people and force them on a diet.

In other words, I do not belong to a death cult.

Yeah. You do.

Also, the part about banning roads from cars doesn't make sense on this side of the world.

Everybody is upside down here and we walk on our hands. It's in a documentary by Lewis Carroll.

Also, no. Deciding that the State should not confine people who refuse a medical procedure to house arrest forever does not make me part of a death cult.

 

[Metaphor]

I was also required to undergo specific vaccinations, including an annual flu shot in order to be employed at my former employer. If I were not retired, Covid vaccination would also be required for me. Failure to comply without valid medical documentation supporting such refusal ( severe allergy to vaccine components, chemotherapy, etc.) would mean furlough until such time as the employee complied. Of course no one forced me to work for my former employer.

And under my scenario,no one would be forced to be vaccinated. They simply would not be protected from the consequences of their refusal and simultaneously would protect the general population, including those medically unable to be vaccinated from the selfish idiocy of the vaccine refuseniks.

Note: I mentioned that of course people could receive packages, home delivery or other contact delivery of needed goods, including groceries. No one would starve.

This would provide the best opportunity for preventing the continuing hardships faced by all by the pandemic, including dealing with the inevitable vaccine resistant mutations that arise in unvaccinated people.

Of course people would starve. Some people do not have an income unless they work. And when those people do not pay their rent or their mortgage, they will be evicted. Now, charity food banks still operate, but perhaps they will refuse to serve the unvaccinated too.

As long as we are allowed to come up with fucking ridiculous scenarios, the unvaccinated could go around infecting everyone with a new variant that impervious to the current vaccines and everyone could die. So your position is that everyone will die.

Gee, that was easy and fun.

That was the exact scenario Toni has advocated: house arrest for the unvaccinated. Take it up with her if you think that such a policy is ridiculous.

 

[Metaphor]

And a bank teller can avoid a bullet entering her brain if she just hands over the money.

I believe that is the policy in most banks, in fact. And guess what? Human life saved!

Yep. And you're the person holding the gun.

 

[laughing dog]

As long as we are allowed to come up with fucking ridiculous scenarios, the unvaccinated could go around infecting everyone with a new variant that impervious to the current vaccines and everyone could die. So your position is that everyone will die.

Gee, that was easy and fun.

That was the exact scenario Toni has advocated: house arrest for the unvaccinated. Take it up with her if you think that such a policy is ridiculous.

That is clearly not the scenario Toni advocated. If the unvaccinated were under house arrest, they could not possible go about infecting others with a deadly variant that would kill everyone. That is your position - that the unvaccinated should not be under house arrest. Which means that they can go about infecting others with a deadly variant.

That scenario is a ridiculous straw man just like your scenario of perpetual house arrest with people starving to death.

 

[Swammerdami]

I cannot understand why you think the conclusion 'it should be illegal to drive while sober' is implied from 'don't place people under house arrest for refusing a particular medical procedure'. But, I will attempt to understand how you got to that reasoning.

It appears to me that you and Toni believe that 'being unvaccinated' is the same as being drunk, and we've decided as a society that drunk people should not drive. Okay. But, being unvaccinated is not the same as being drunk (here, being drunk would be equivalent to having COVID). Drunk people pose a threat to people on the road, and having COVID poses a threat to people around you.

Fair enough. In California (and some other states?) it is illegal to drive, whether drunk or not, if you have an open container of alcoholic beverage in the car. Is that law over-reach? Driving with the open container (though not drunk) seems like an analog to being unvaccinated (though not infected with the virus).

(Actually the open-container law might be more offensive! It would seem to insult the driver as perhaps unable to resist a drink temptation. An unvaccinated person who mingles with others can contract Covid-19 regardless of his will-power.)

MMR vaccines are given at 12 months of age. We make decisions for children because a one year old baby cannot make them for herself.

But I would object to an 18 year old being forced to get the MMR vaccine.

The parents don't really get to choose whether their kid is vaccinated or not. The kid must have the vaccine to attend public schools.

Here's a question: in what universe did I suggest or imply people should refuse vaccination? It isn't this universe. I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate.

OK. I thought it might help us understand the concern if we were informed of some reason not to get vaccinated. I guess abstract freedom is reason enough.

 

[Metaphor]

Fair enough. In California (and some other states?) it is illegal to drive, whether drunk or not, if you have an open container of alcoholic beverage in the car. Is that law over-reach? Driving with the open container (though not drunk) seems like an analog to being unvaccinated (though not infected with the virus).

An 'open container' law is ludicrous overreach in a universe where the breath alcohol of the driver is near-instantaneously verifiable.

The parents don't really get to choose whether their kid is vaccinated or not. The kid must have the vaccine to attend public schools.

There is, of course, the option to send kids to other schools or home school them.

Toni's vaccine mandate is not 'you can go to some places outside your home', but 'you can't go anywhere outside your home'.

OK. I thought it might help us understand the concern if we were informed of some reason not to get vaccinated. I guess abstract freedom is reason enough.

Abstract freedom is always and should always be enough. People should have the freedom to associate as they please for any reason or no reason at all.

 

[Metaphor]

That is your position - that the unvaccinated should not be under house arrest. Which means that they can go about infecting others with a deadly variant.

Yes. The unvaccinated should be free to infect others with a deadly variant, just as the vaccinated are free to do so.

That scenario is a ridiculous straw man just like your scenario of perpetual house arrest with people starving to death.

I asked Toni what her stop scenario was. She said 'until the pandemic is over'. But she hasn't told me what she thinks the pandemic being over means. Without naming the conditions, her stop scenario is "people will be confined until I say so".