Was Einstein racist against Chinese people?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://sputniknews.com/world/201806131065360060-einstein-travel-diaries/

“Chinese don’t sit on benches while eating but squat like Europeans do when they relieve themselves out in the leafy woods. All this occurs quietly and demurely. Even the children are spiritless and look obtuse,” Einstein wrote.

Bringing up the issue of the “abundance of offspring” and the “fecundity” of the nation, Einstein went on to say that “it would be a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races. For the likes of us the mere thought is unspeakably dreary.”

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

https://sputniknews.com/world/201806131065360060-einstein-travel-diaries/

“Chinese don’t sit on benches while eating but squat like Europeans do when they relieve themselves out in the leafy woods. All this occurs quietly and demurely. Even the children are spiritless and look obtuse,” Einstein wrote.

Bringing up the issue of the “abundance of offspring” and the “fecundity” of the nation, Einstein went on to say that “it would be a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races. For the likes of us the mere thought is unspeakably dreary.”

As a super mixed asian person(including a Chinese grandparent; what am I? Pan-Asian?) I don't take offence to this or think less of him. He was a man of his times. Jefferson owned slaves right?

 

[barbos]

Yeah, it was a time when pretending to not be a racist was not yet fashionable.
McCain still does not like Asians.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://sputniknews.com/world/201806131065360060-einstein-travel-diaries/

“Chinese don’t sit on benches while eating but squat like Europeans do when they relieve themselves out in the leafy woods. All this occurs quietly and demurely. Even the children are spiritless and look obtuse,” Einstein wrote.

Bringing up the issue of the “abundance of offspring” and the “fecundity” of the nation, Einstein went on to say that “it would be a pity if these Chinese supplant all other races. For the likes of us the mere thought is unspeakably dreary.”

As a super mixed asian person(including a Chinese grandparent; what am I? Pan-Asian?) I don't take offence to this or think less of him. He was a man of his times. Jefferson owned slaves right?

At the time there was a lot of movement against slavery. Anti-slavery almost passed initially with the founders. It was extremely close. I think people knew it was wrong therefore, especially someone as intelligent as Jefferson. That's off-topic though.

So if a person says they are afraid of all the stupid X are going to take over like cockroaches, that's not racist? Essentially that is what Einstein wrote.

 

[barbos]

As a super mixed asian person(including a Chinese grandparent; what am I? Pan-Asian?) I don't take offence to this or think less of him. He was a man of his times. Jefferson owned slaves right?

At the time there was a lot of movement against slavery. Anti-slavery almost passed initially with the founders. It was extremely close. I think people knew it was wrong therefore, especially someone as intelligent as Jefferson. That's off-topic though.

So if a person says they are afraid of all the stupid X are going to take over like cockroaches, that's not racist? Essentially that is what Einstein wrote.

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Is it to call people obtuse? I don't think it is. I think that calling a "race" obtuse is a racist action.

On the other hand, I don't think a racist comment or two makes a person.

 

[Derec]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Passing a "one child only" policy.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it to call people obtuse? I don't think it is. I think that calling a "race" obtuse is a racist action.
On the other hand, I don't think a racist comment or two makes a person.

A comment about a culture is not the same as a comment about race. All teh negative comments about the Chinese Einstein made were about their cultural norms, and at no point has he, as far as I know, suggested that they had to do with their racial heritage. That would be racist. I think criticizing culture is and should be ok, even necessary.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Passing a "one child only" policy.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it to call people obtuse? I don't think it is. I think that calling a "race" obtuse is a racist action.
On the other hand, I don't think a racist comment or two makes a person.

A comment about a culture is not the same as a comment about race. All teh negative comments about the Chinese Einstein made were about their cultural norms, and at no point has he, as far as I know, suggested that they had to do with their racial heritage. That would be racist. I think criticizing culture is and should be ok, even necessary.

This is an assumption on your part. Chinese is a nationality, a set of cultures, a set of languages, and a "race" because race is a social construct, just like culture is. Another possibility is that he was agnostic on the question.

Here's some more food for thought:

In Colombo in Ceylon, Einstein writes of how the locals “live in great filth and considerable stench at ground level” adding that they “do little, and need little. The simple economic cycle of life.”

Einstein’s perceptions of the Japanese he meets are, in contrast, more positive: “Japanese unostentatious, decent, altogether very appealing,” he writes. “Pure souls as nowhere else among people. One has to love and admire this country.” But Rosenkranz points out that he also concludes that the “intellectual needs of this nation seem to be weaker than their artistic ones – natural disposition?”

“Einstein’s diary entries on the biological origin of the alleged intellectual inferiority of the Japanese, Chinese, and Indians are definitely not understated and can be viewed as racist – in these instances, other peoples are portrayed as being biologically inferior, a clear hallmark of racism. The disquieting comment that the Chinese may ‘supplant all other races’ is also most revealing in this regard,” writes Rosenkranz.

“Here, Einstein perceives a foreign ‘race’ as a threat, which … is one of the characteristics of a racist ideology. Yet the remark that must strike the modern reader as most offensive is his feigning not to understand how Chinese men can find their women sufficiently attractive to have offspring with them. In light of these instances, we must conclude that Einstein did make quite a few racist and dehumanising comments in the diary, some of which were extremely unpleasant.”

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/12/einsteins-travel-diaries-reveal-shocking-xenophobia

Emphasis added.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Hold on a sec. He didn't express displeasure at unsustainable population growth but instead that race Y was going to supplant race Z. Population growth is certainly involved but he specifically mentioned less of frequency of race Z as compared to race Y. Why does this ranking matter irrespective of population?

 

[Arctish]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

"I am displeased by unsustainable population growth".

The polite way is to put YMMV at the end.

 

[bilby]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

"I am displeased by unsustainable population growth".

The polite way is to put YMMV at the end.

It's no longer necessary to express such displeasure, politely or otherwise.

Today, one might say "I am too poorly informed on the subject of population growth to have an opinion, because I haven't updated my premises since the 1970s, when population growth was still projected to be unsustainable". To express displeasure at unsustainable population growth today cannot be done 'correctly', because if you think that it exists, you are factually incorrect.

Of course, in Einstein's time it was reasonable to be worried by population growth - he was a smart man, but could not have foreseen the advent of safe and effective contraception controlled by women. That one invention, coupled with improved child mortality, better education (especially for women) and increasing absolute wealth amongst the world's poorest people, has eliminated the problem. World population will stabilize this century, at levels well below our current ability to sustain.

Also of course, even in Einstein's time, worrying about population growth amongst 'them', but not amongst 'us', was racist. Racism was more common and more widely accepted back then, but that's not really an excuse.

 

[repoman]

Just a more intense version of this

Heaven:
The police are British
The cooks are French
The engineers are German
The administrators are Swiss
The lovers are Italian
Hell:
The police are German
The cooks are British
The engineers are Italian
The administrators are French
The lovers are Swiss

But this needs to be opened up to include Africa and Asia as well.

 

[barbos]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Hold on a sec. He didn't express displeasure at unsustainable population growth but instead that race Y was going to supplant race Z. Population growth is certainly involved but he specifically mentioned less of frequency of race Z as compared to race Y. Why does this ranking matter irrespective of population?

Good point. In Einstein defense this all happened long before Hitler discredited racism
I once watched photographs from China from that era, that was quite a shithole especially compared to Switzerland. I think Einstein might have changed his opinion after WW2.

It's weird how we judge people knowing what they could not know.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What is the correct way to express displeasure at unsustainable population growth?

Hold on a sec. He didn't express displeasure at unsustainable population growth but instead that race Y was going to supplant race Z. Population growth is certainly involved but he specifically mentioned less of frequency of race Z as compared to race Y. Why does this ranking matter irrespective of population?

Good point. In Einstein defense this all happened long before Hitler discredited racism
I once watched photographs from China from that era, that was quite a shithole especially compared to Switzerland. I think Einstein might have changed his opinion after WW2.

It's weird how we judge people knowing what they could not know.

I am actually not judging him as a bad person. I find it more interesting than anything else. Since at some point in his life he called racism "a disease of white people," I think he would have judged himself or at least should have.

The other thing I think is worthy of understanding is how Einstein viewed Asians as less intelligent, perhaps due naturally to genetics (in his view). It's interesting because this has flipped in terms of post-modern racism, though, there is a lot of inconsistency about Indians. It reminds me of how stereotypes of people and cultural trends within groups change over time. So, we say things like why are there so many Jewish basketball players in the 1930's, is it genetic? Then, things change.

 

[Toni]

Good point. In Einstein defense this all happened long before Hitler discredited racism
I once watched photographs from China from that era, that was quite a shithole especially compared to Switzerland. I think Einstein might have changed his opinion after WW2.

It's weird how we judge people knowing what they could not know.

I am actually not judging him as a bad person. I find it more interesting than anything else. Since at some point in his life he called racism "a disease of white people," I think he would have judged himself or at least should have.

The other thing I think is worthy of understanding is how Einstein viewed Asians as less intelligent, perhaps due naturally to genetics (in his view). It's interesting because this has flipped in terms of post-modern racism, though, there is a lot of inconsistency about Indians. It reminds me of how stereotypes of people and cultural trends within groups change over time. So, we say things like why are there so many Jewish basketball players in the 1930's, is it genetic? Then, things change.

The newly released diaries were written when Einstein was a fairly young man who was just getting his first opportunities to travel widely. There was no television, no internet, little opportunity to see for oneself how other places and people looked, etc. It is not unusual to form a quick impression that is shallow or uninformed, especially when one is suddenly immersed in a new country, far from home, and confronted with people and customs vastly different than what is familiar. For the time, his viewpoints were fairly progressive. As his life progressed, so did Einstein's thinking and opinions. Surely he was influenced by what happened under Nazis and surely he was also influenced by life, by his travels and experiences meeting other peoples from other places who looked very different from what he knew, whose language, clothing and customs were different than his. His thinking evolved as he became more accustomed to different peoples and cultures. Isn't that normal? He became a strong advocate for civil rights in the U.S.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Good point. In Einstein defense this all happened long before Hitler discredited racism
I once watched photographs from China from that era, that was quite a shithole especially compared to Switzerland. I think Einstein might have changed his opinion after WW2.

It's weird how we judge people knowing what they could not know.

I am actually not judging him as a bad person. I find it more interesting than anything else. Since at some point in his life he called racism "a disease of white people," I think he would have judged himself or at least should have.

The other thing I think is worthy of understanding is how Einstein viewed Asians as less intelligent, perhaps due naturally to genetics (in his view). It's interesting because this has flipped in terms of post-modern racism, though, there is a lot of inconsistency about Indians. It reminds me of how stereotypes of people and cultural trends within groups change over time. So, we say things like why are there so many Jewish basketball players in the 1930's, is it genetic? Then, things change.

The newly released diaries were written when Einstein was a fairly young man who was just getting his first opportunities to travel widely. There was no television, no internet, little opportunity to see for oneself how other places and people looked, etc. It is not unusual to form a quick impression that is shallow or uninformed, especially when one is suddenly immersed in a new country, far from home, and confronted with people and customs vastly different than what is familiar. For the time, his viewpoints were fairly progressive. As his life progressed, so did Einstein's thinking and opinions. Surely he was influenced by what happened under Nazis and surely he was also influenced by life, by his travels and experiences meeting other peoples from other places who looked very different from what he knew, whose language, clothing and customs were different than his. His thinking evolved as he became more accustomed to different peoples and cultures. Isn't that normal? He became a strong advocate for civil rights in the U.S.

I think being a little racist is normal. In terms of a progression over time and of life, I think very young tend to adopt their parents' and culture's views, then as they grow and think rationally there is a tendency to grow out of it which might mean becoming less racist, but there are probably just as many who are a little racist and a few very racist people in the same age group. But then later in life there is another tendency to try to protect what one has accomplished and gathered throughout life which makes one a little more conservative and xenophobic, but again there are so many non-xenophobic, non-conservatives in older age, too, that really both types are "normal." Like I wrote before, I think Einstein's middle-aged self would probably have been judgmental against his younger self, too. But what about when he was very old, could he have become more of a tribalist? It doesn't look like it. It looks like he permanently changed for the better based on his actions, but on the other hand what one believes in one's head can be different than how one acts. I am not judging Einstein but if I were, I'd rather judge him on actions than a few comments in a diary he never intended anyone to read.

 

[dismal]

In his youth Einstein was a brilliant physicist.

Even in the field of physics, he was somewhat of a dinosaur in his later years.

There is no particular reason to consider him an authority on anything else.

 

[Toni]

The newly released diaries were written when Einstein was a fairly young man who was just getting his first opportunities to travel widely. There was no television, no internet, little opportunity to see for oneself how other places and people looked, etc. It is not unusual to form a quick impression that is shallow or uninformed, especially when one is suddenly immersed in a new country, far from home, and confronted with people and customs vastly different than what is familiar. For the time, his viewpoints were fairly progressive. As his life progressed, so did Einstein's thinking and opinions. Surely he was influenced by what happened under Nazis and surely he was also influenced by life, by his travels and experiences meeting other peoples from other places who looked very different from what he knew, whose language, clothing and customs were different than his. His thinking evolved as he became more accustomed to different peoples and cultures. Isn't that normal? He became a strong advocate for civil rights in the U.S.

I think being a little racist is normal. In terms of a progression over time and of life, I think very young tend to adopt their parents' and culture's views, then as they grow and think rationally there is a tendency to grow out of it which might mean becoming less racist, but there are probably just as many who are a little racist and a few very racist people in the same age group. But then later in life there is another tendency to try to protect what one has accomplished and gathered throughout life which makes one a little more conservative and xenophobic, but again there are so many non-xenophobic, non-conservatives in older age, too, that really both types are "normal." Like I wrote before, I think Einstein's middle-aged self would probably have been judgmental against his younger self, too. But what about when he was very old, could he have become more of a tribalist? It doesn't look like it. It looks like he permanently changed for the better based on his actions, but on the other hand what one believes in one's head can be different than how one acts. I am not judging Einstein but if I were, I'd rather judge him on actions than a few comments in a diary he never intended anyone to read.

I don't necessarily think that it is a matter of adopting ones' parents' attitudes. My observations are that some people embrace change and what is new and different whole heartedly and with a sense of curiosity and wonder. Other people react with more caution, and even fear. There is a tendency to believe that as we get older, we fear change more but I don't think this is necessarily true. My father was engaged in the world and interested in learning more and more throughout his life. In fact, one could argue that after he retired, he was more interested in things beyond his own experiences because he had more time and leisure to be so engaged. I've watched children similar in age and from the same family react very differently the first time they see someone of a different race than they are accustomed to seeing--one might be more interested and engaged right away, another might be curious and a little detached, noting differences and another might react with shyness or fear initially. Of course upbringing makes a difference but that's not the whole influence. I would wager that most of us have somewhat different attitudes towards people of different races, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender than our parents did and do. I don't think that is because we are smarter or better people. I think we have different experiences.


Think of 200, 100, 50 years ago and how we looked at people from different parts of the world, who may have looked much different than we do. In large part, we are helped by the fact that we see people, hear languages, hear and read ideas that are different than the ones we are most familiar with very easily. I grew up in an area where almost everybody looked a whole lot like me. We spoke the same languages, attended (or didn't) churches that were almost the same, despite what the name on the outside said. I didn't meet someone from another country until I went to college. My kids have known people from around the world all their lives--and we don't live in a large urban area. My town is not very large--just over 25K. Even nearby towns much smaller than mine have residents from various parts of the world, including South and Central America and Africa and the Middle East. That wasn't the case 30 years ago.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Does it even matter? What impact does it have if he was?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Does it even matter? What impact does it have if he was?

Well, if energy only equals mass times the speed of light squared for white people, the Chinese have an unfair competitive advantage in the race to colonize other planets due to their ships being able to use FTL travel.