We may not die

[ryan]

Not all of us are terrified of oblivion.

I totally disagree.

What? You're telling me you feel differently about oblivion or are you saying that all of us are as terrified of oblivion as you are?

The latter, maybe not as much as me, but everyone fears death to some degree. Everyone as in at least 99% - I feel like you are ready to pounce on anything.

Not everyone is obsessed with death.

Most people not only do not fear death; They don't even think for a second about it, unless prompted.

I can't speak for everyone else (and nor can you), but until reminded of it by this thread, I was not conscious of my inevitable death at all; And now that I have been reminded of it, and am consciously considering it again, I find myself completely lacking in anything that could be described as 'fear'. Death is inevitable, but it is likely a long way off, and exactly how far off it is is unknown. It's an abstract transitional event, that likely leads to oblivion - nothing to be frightened of in oblivion. Dying might hurt - and it might hurt for a long time. I fear degenerative disease, and I fear the ghoulish and obscene laws that render euthanasia illegal in my jurisdiction, and that could lead to the medical profession deliberately preventing me from ending my own suffering.

But death is simply not something of which I am the slightest bit afraid.

Your attitude reminds me of when I planned to emigrate to Australia. A friend said 'But they have huge spiders in Australia. That's terrifying!'. I responded that I was not afraid of spiders. He responded 'But they are huge, and some are venomous, and they will be everywhere'. I pointed out that I was not afraid of spiders. He said 'But you must be'. He couldn't grasp that his phobia might not be shared by everyone else.

You, Ryan, are phobic about death. That's OK; People are scared of lots of things, and as phobias go, yours is mostly harmless. But it is not shared by everyone; and the rest of humanity will not thank you for saving them from a fear they simply do not share. Anymore than I would have thanked my friend, had he stolen my passport to save me from being exposed to the terrifying Australian spiders.

It's not just the fear of death; it's the loss of everything, the unknown, defeat, end of all good things, etc. for me and everyone I care about.

Humans vs death, game on.

And what the hell else is there to do anyways? We all have to do something. I like studying chemistry, not as much as physics, but it's still interesting.

 

[ryan]

It does sound rather phobic, but ultimately the perception rests on one's understanding of what "death" is. A neighbor imagined herself buried while the coffin filled with water and no one heard her cries. So she was terrified at times.

To me death is just the end of a complex chemical process where all the parts get reincorporated into other things, same as before the complex chemical process. It's nothing to fear. Dying and death are very different things, and death is not the one I ever think about.

I use the angry and fearful energy I get from the thought of death to fight it. I fear that the masses channel their fear of death in a much different and unconscious way.

 

[DBT]

We die constantly and continually, we are not the same as we were as infants, as children, as teenagers, young adults and so on, the process of endings and beginnings in altered form being a matter memory and a sense of continuity. The continuity being provided by memory, which itself is neither perfect or constant, reformed and reworked it provides us with identity and purpose, but without it we do not exist.

We don't know enough about physics to put any weight on these assumptions.

And I like my memories and identity. I want to continue.

Assumptions? Do you believe that you are in fact the same physically and mentally as you were as an infant, as a child and so on? Do you think that your cells don't die and are being replaced? That memories don't fade or drop away and new memories being formed continuously?

 

[ryan]

We don't know enough about physics to put any weight on these assumptions.

And I like my memories and identity. I want to continue.

Assumptions? Do you believe that you are in fact the same physically and mentally as you were as an infant, as a child and so on? Do you think that your cells don't die and are being replaced? That memories don't fade or drop away and new memories being formed continuously?

There is more to it than that, and it is all only philosophical at this point.

 

[bilby]

It does sound rather phobic, but ultimately the perception rests on one's understanding of what "death" is. A neighbor imagined herself buried while the coffin filled with water and no one heard her cries. So she was terrified at times.

To me death is just the end of a complex chemical process where all the parts get reincorporated into other things, same as before the complex chemical process. It's nothing to fear. Dying and death are very different things, and death is not the one I ever think about.

I use the angry and fearful energy I get from the thought of death to fight it. I fear that the masses channel their fear of death in a much different and unconscious way.

But you don't stop to ask whether in fact the masses may not have a fear of death to channel. If people don't all think like you imagine that they should, then your appeals to get them to behave as you would wish them to are doomed to fail. If you want to change people's thinking, you need to start with an accurate understanding of their current thinking, or you will just annoy them by discussing irrelevancies as though they were important.

It may be possible to persuade large numbers of people to follow your proposals; But only if you start by appealing to things that they currently care about - and fear of death is just not a part of most people's daily thoughts.

 

[ryan]

I use the angry and fearful energy I get from the thought of death to fight it. I fear that the masses channel their fear of death in a much different and unconscious way.

But you don't stop to ask whether in fact the masses may not have a fear of death to channel.

I did.

 

[bilby]

But you don't stop to ask whether in fact the masses may not have a fear of death to channel.

I did.

Then your fear that they channel something they do not have is unfounded and irrational. It is good to recognize that; Understanding that your phobia is not rational is an important step towards overcoming it. But you still have a long way to go.

 

[ryan]

I did.

Then your fear that they channel something they do not have is unfounded and irrational. It is good to recognize that; Understanding that your phobia is not rational is an important step towards overcoming it. But you still have a long way to go.

You don't think that most people fear death?

 

[abaddon]

You don't think that most people fear death?

Probably most fear it at least a little bit. But, so what? Suppose you succeeded in mortifying them so that they sided with you and fought tooth and nail against death? Have you done them a favor, or have you stolen joy from their lives?

Try this: Make a list of 100 fears “most people” suffer. Do you want to “cure” the causes of their fears? What benefits happen if you they no longer feel fears? Then look at the flip side of the coin and consider what horrible things might occur if they didn’t have them.

My "so what?" question means: Is it really so awful to feel fearful of some things sometimes?

 

[bilby]

Then your fear that they channel something they do not have is unfounded and irrational. It is good to recognize that; Understanding that your phobia is not rational is an important step towards overcoming it. But you still have a long way to go.

You don't think that most people fear death?

No, I don't. I don't think most people really think about death. In the same way that most non-arachnophobes don't think about spiders, unless prompted to do so.

Most people fear dying, but that's a different thing altogether.

 

[ryan]

You don't think that most people fear death?

Probably most fear it at least a little bit. But, so what? Suppose you succeeded in mortifying them so that they sided with you and fought tooth and nail against death? Have you done them a favor, or have you stolen joy from their lives?

Sure, we all have a battle in life; why not make it this?

Try this: Make a list of 100 fears “most people” suffer. Do you want to “cure” the causes of their fears? What benefits happen if you they no longer feel fears? Then look at the flip side of the coin and consider what horrible things might occur if they didn’t have them.

My "so what?" question means: Is it really so awful to feel fearful of some things sometimes?

Death is the one fear that is different than all of the rest. There is no getting to the other side.

 

[bilby]

Probably most fear it at least a little bit. But, so what? Suppose you succeeded in mortifying them so that they sided with you and fought tooth and nail against death? Have you done them a favor, or have you stolen joy from their lives?

Sure, we all have a battle in life; why not make it this?

Why not make it getting orange Tic-tacs banned?

People battle for all kinds of weird things; You can't simply take your chosen obsession and persuade other people to adopt it by saying 'we all have a battle in life, why not make it this?'. That's a non-argument - It is how ALL obsessives think, regardless of their obsession, and nobody who has not already agreed with the idea will ever be swayed by it.

Football fans should all support Leeds United. Why? Because all football fans follow a team, so why shouldn't it be Leeds? Do you not see how that argument completely fails to be even slightly effective or compelling? Because that's your argument here.

You need to try to have at least some empathy with your audience here, Ryan. If you want to recruit people to your cause, then you need to try to understand what they actually think, rather than projecting your own ideas on them, and assuming that they agree with you to begin with. If that was true, you wouldn't need to persuade them at all. But you do. So appealing to ideas you WANT them to hold is not going to work; You have to appeal to people as they ARE, not as you WISH THEY WERE.

 

[ryan]

You don't think that most people fear death?

No, I don't. I don't think most people really think about death. In the same way that most non-arachnophobes don't think about spiders, unless prompted to do so.

Most people fear dying, but that's a different thing altogether.

Oh, you're going to drive this argument into the mud with semantics; aren't you? not interested

 

[ryan]

Sure, we all have a battle in life; why not make it this?

Why not make it getting orange Tic-tacs banned?

People battle for all kinds of weird things; You can't simply take your chosen obsession and persuade other people to adopt it by saying 'we all have a battle in life, why not make it this?'. That's a non-argument - It is how ALL obsessives think, regardless of their obsession, and nobody who has not already agreed with the idea will ever be swayed by it.

Football fans should all support Leeds United. Why? Because all football fans follow a team, so why shouldn't it be Leeds? Do you not see how that argument completely fails to be even slightly effective or compelling? Because that's your argument here.

You need to try to have at least some empathy with your audience here, Ryan. If you want to recruit people to your cause, then you need to try to understand what they actually think, rather than projecting your own ideas on them, and assuming that they agree with you to begin with. If that was true, you wouldn't need to persuade them at all. But you do. So appealing to ideas you WANT them to hold is not going to work; You have to appeal to people as they ARE, not as you WISH THEY WERE.

I am essentially looking for better reasons not to do this. The longer I go without finding any, the stronger I feel about my commitment.

In the mean time, I do like to read objections and alternative ways to think about this. As for initiating an actual "campaign"; I must let my argument evolve. I take out what works and keep in what doesn't.

 

[bilby]

No, I don't. I don't think most people really think about death. In the same way that most non-arachnophobes don't think about spiders, unless prompted to do so.

Most people fear dying, but that's a different thing altogether.

Oh, you're going to drive this argument into the mud with semantics; aren't you? not interested

There is no argument. You have an obsession; Others don't share it; You think they should. That's not an argument - it's just a disagreement between you and reality about what people should think.

Your argument boils down to 'I believe this, so everyone else should too'. You are confused as to why they don't - but that's because you refuse to imagine that they disagree with you.

 

[bilby]

Why not make it getting orange Tic-tacs banned?

People battle for all kinds of weird things; You can't simply take your chosen obsession and persuade other people to adopt it by saying 'we all have a battle in life, why not make it this?'. That's a non-argument - It is how ALL obsessives think, regardless of their obsession, and nobody who has not already agreed with the idea will ever be swayed by it.

Football fans should all support Leeds United. Why? Because all football fans follow a team, so why shouldn't it be Leeds? Do you not see how that argument completely fails to be even slightly effective or compelling? Because that's your argument here.

You need to try to have at least some empathy with your audience here, Ryan. If you want to recruit people to your cause, then you need to try to understand what they actually think, rather than projecting your own ideas on them, and assuming that they agree with you to begin with. If that was true, you wouldn't need to persuade them at all. But you do. So appealing to ideas you WANT them to hold is not going to work; You have to appeal to people as they ARE, not as you WISH THEY WERE.

I am essentially looking for better reasons not to do this. The longer I go without finding any, the stronger I feel about my commitment.

In the mean time, I do like to read objections and alternative ways to think about this. As for initiating an actual "campaign"; I must let my argument evolve. I take out what works and keep in what doesn't.

You have it arse-backwards. NOBODY is going to start to support a position where the argument for doing so is 'why not'.

No matter how difficult you find it to come up with any reason NOT to do this, if you are going to recruit others you MUST come up with positive and compelling reasons TO do it.

Otherwise you are just another lone voice amongst the millions of people who have an idea that they think others should share. But they don't.

 

[DBT]

Assumptions? Do you believe that you are in fact the same physically and mentally as you were as an infant, as a child and so on? Do you think that your cells don't die and are being replaced? That memories don't fade or drop away and new memories being formed continuously?

There is more to it than that, and it is all only philosophical at this point.

Of course there's more to it than that, but what I outlined is gist of it. As far as mind/personality/self identity/self awareness goes, the only continuity we have is provided by the collection of memories that define who we are and at what point we happen to be in.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Death is the one fear that is different than all of the rest. There is no getting to the other side.

My greatest fear is to be unable to care for myself, to enjoy life. I prefer death.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Isn't what drives you to achieve based in part on your assumed lifespan? If life were greatly extended or immortality were achieved, wouldn't this drive be diminished? I think about what Keith&Co. wrote about TV and the internet and cringe at the thought of how much more slothful humans might be if they had all the time in the world.
Oh well. Be it to our demise or benefit, like AI, we're going to pursue it nonetheless.

 

[DBT]

Death is the one fear that is different than all of the rest. There is no getting to the other side.

My greatest fear is to be unable to care for myself, to enjoy life. I prefer death.

What if physical and mental degeneration was eliminated? If you could retain the state and appearance of a healthy, vigorous 25yo indefinitely?