What a fair and honest debate on Israel/Palestinian conflict looks like

[Axulus]

Note that this is a conversation the author has with himself, someone who actually sees both sides of the issue quite clearly.

Here is a snippet, read the whole thing:

Judea and Samaria? You even change the names of our lands. It’s called the West Bank. Palestine’s issue is not with Jews, but with your occupation. If the illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank were prepared to accept the authority of our government, we could easily grant them Palestinian citizenship just as you have done with Israeli Arabs. The reason you cannot “trust us” with them is because they refuse to accept the legal writ of the Palestinian Authority. They are religiously driven fanatics who believe in Greater Israel. How would you feel if Israeli Arab Muslim fanatics refused to accept your writ deep inside Israel? Of course there would be tension. Instead, those Arabs have integrated relatively well there, though with room for improvement.

Yes, Israeli Arabs have integrated relatively well. Though I suspect that’s as much to do with us as it is them. Both sides deserve credit for that, don’t you think? I should return later to your statement that Palestinians don’t have a problem with Jews per se. But on the intransigence of these settlers you may have a point. They can be incredibly stubborn. But if you ask those settlers to accept your writ, why do you continue to not recognize Israel? It’s the same UN you refer to that grants you, and us, this same right to exist. You cannot have it both ways. Look, Egypt struck a deal with us and we returned the Sinai. We have been at peace ever since.

Occupiers get to make no demands, why don’t you just withdraw, and we’ll recognize you?

But we tried that in Gaza in 2005, and you kept firing rockets at our villages, deliberately trying to kill our civilians. Withdrawal from the West Bank is even more dangerous because in Jerusalem we live side by side.

Withdrawal from Gaza? You “withdrew” from Gaza yet failed to recognize our democratically elected government there. Then you imposed a blockade around our sea, and controlled what our population has access to via land. Gaza is nothing more than an incredibly dense prison camp. What choice do the people of Gaza have but to continue the resistance?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ael-palestine.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on this response from a bunch of people:

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

LOL I like that cartoon. That pretty much says all that needs to be said right there.

Honestly, if I were in charge of the world and had all the power, I would use the King Solomon solution. Give them a set amount of time to find a way to get along, or I destroy them BOTH.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

LOL I like that cartoon. That pretty much says all that needs to be said right there.

Honestly, if I were in charge of the world and had all the power, I would use the King Solomon solution. Give them a set amount of time to find a way to get along, or I destroy them BOTH.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/aCbfMkh940Q[/YOUTUBE]

 

[untermensche]

In the US you have this massive propaganda effort by the Israeli government with the support of many members of the media and the government. This effort defines both the Israeli and Palestinian positions.

And you get next to nothing from the real Palestinian position. You will not see any member of Hamas for instance expressing an opinion in the US media.

And from this, some people somehow think both sides are being represented equally.

 

[Nexus]

Honestly, if I were in charge of the world and had all the power, I would use the King Solomon solution. Give them a set amount of time to find a way to get along, or I destroy them BOTH.

I can dream bigger. If I had mutant superpowers I would slowly sink the entire landmass 200m under sea level. I would give them enough time to evacuate and afterwards laugh at the billions of religious people that thought the area was sacred land and part of a grand plan for the end times.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that this is a conversation the author has with himself, someone who actually sees both sides of the issue quite clearly.

Here is a snippet, read the whole thing:

Withdrawal from Gaza? You “withdrew” from Gaza yet failed to recognize our democratically elected government there. Then you imposed a blockade around our sea, and controlled what our population has access to via land. Gaza is nothing more than an incredibly dense prison camp. What choice do the people of Gaza have but to continue the resistance?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ael-palestine.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

And why should Israel recognize a government that refuses to recognize Israel?


Anyway, on a related topic, I ran into an old newspaper article:



Note the date. Long before the occupation. Long before the existence of Israel.

 

[untermensche]

And why should Israel recognize a government that refuses to recognize Israel?

How do they not recognize Israel?

It has it's boot on their throat and is fucking them in the ass.

Hard for them to miss that.

 

[bilby]

Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on this response from a bunch of people:

Well it took them until post numbers 6 & 7. I reckon that's pretty good going, given the history of the topic on these boards.

 

[Ford]

In the US you have this massive propaganda effort by the Israeli government with the support of many members of the media and the government. This effort defines both the Israeli and Palestinian positions.

Well to be fair there's no "Palestinian" position at all, as "Palestinian" isn't even a thing. Those people are just Arabs who never really lived in the land that God clearly granted to Israel.

Oh, sure, there may have been some squatters who'd spent a few hundred years in the region, but the land has belonged to Israel since...well...forever. Right?

 

[untermensche]

In the US you have this massive propaganda effort by the Israeli government with the support of many members of the media and the government. This effort defines both the Israeli and Palestinian positions.

Well to be fair there's no "Palestinian" position at all, as "Palestinian" isn't even a thing. Those people are just Arabs who never really lived in the land that God clearly granted to Israel.

Oh, sure, there may have been some squatters who'd spent a few hundred years in the region, but the land has belonged to Israel since...well...forever. Right?

And here we see the effects of all this Israeli and US propaganda.

You should check with the UN.

There are some Resolutions that differ from your nonsense.

 

[Ford]

You should check with the UN.

Well it isn't like the UN had anything to do with the creation of Israel.


I mean, was the UN present when God gave the land to the rightful owners?


I think not!


Sure, the UN might argue that the state of Israel was wrong for taking over the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and certain neighborhoods in Jerusalem, but who are you gonna believe...God, or the UN?


Did God give the land of Israel to the Arabs? No. End of argument. QED. Israel can annex whatever land God gave to them.



Right?

 

[untermensche]

You should check with the UN.

Well it isn't like the UN had anything to do with the creation of Israel.


I mean, was the UN present when God gave the land to the rightful owners?


I think not!


Sure, the UN might argue that the state of Israel was wrong for taking over the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and certain neighborhoods in Jerusalem, but who are you gonna believe...God, or the UN?


Did God give the land of Israel to the Arabs? No. End of argument. QED. Israel can annex whatever land God gave to them.



Right?

I suppose I read your sarcasm as serious but it allowed you to go even further so it was good in the end.

 

[Arctish]

Note that this is a conversation the author has with himself, someone who actually sees both sides of the issue quite clearly.

Here is a snippet, read the whole thing:



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ael-palestine.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

And why should Israel recognize a government that refuses to recognize Israel?

The Palestinian government recognized the government of Israel, that government's right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly Israel's right to exist as part of the Oslo Accords. Now it's time for Israel to reciprocate by recognizing the State of Palestine's government, right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly the State of Palestine's right to exist, too.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ael-palestine.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

Interesting link. Decent read.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You should check with the UN.

Well it isn't like the UN had anything to do with the creation of Israel.


I mean, was the UN present when God gave the land to the rightful owners?


I think not!


Sure, the UN might argue that the state of Israel was wrong for taking over the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and certain neighborhoods in Jerusalem, but who are you gonna believe...God, or the UN?


Did God give the land of Israel to the Arabs? No. End of argument. QED. Israel can annex whatever land God gave to them.



Right?

God said this belongs to the Jews alone but Allah has constantly disputed this. Meanwhile Babylonian god of Magic, Marduk still remains silent in this debate.

 

[skepticalbip]

And why should Israel recognize a government that refuses to recognize Israel?

The Palestinian government recognized the government of Israel, that government's right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly Israel's right to exist as part of the Oslo Accords. Now it's time for Israel to reciprocate by recognizing the State of Palestine's government, right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly the State of Palestine's right to exist, too.

Sorry but the Palestinian National Charter doesn't recognize Israel even though the pro-Palestinians claim that it now does. It specifically calls the Israelis the Zionist occupation. You can read the charter for yourself to see if you can find where they they don't claim the territory where Israel exists. It does recognize the Jews who were living in the area before the "Zionist invasion" (not those who immigrated there later) as Palestinian citizens however in Article 6. The Oslo Accords turned out to be little more than political posturing and an excuse for photo-ops.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

There is a lot wrong going on over there on both sides but denying reality isn't a resolution.

 

[untermensche]

Recognition is a phony issue used by Israel to maintain their unrelenting hostilities and theft.

Of course the END result of any negotiation is mutual recognition.

Lack of recognition is in no way a reason to not negotiate.

Israel knows what it is. It does not need anybody to recognize it.

It has many weapons for those who disagree too strongly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well to be fair there's no "Palestinian" position at all, as "Palestinian" isn't even a thing. Those people are just Arabs who never really lived in the land that God clearly granted to Israel.

Oh, sure, there may have been some squatters who'd spent a few hundred years in the region, but the land has belonged to Israel since...well...forever. Right?

And here we see the effects of all this Israeli and US propaganda.

You should check with the UN.

There are some Resolutions that differ from your nonsense.

The UN is rabidly anti-Israel, they're hardly a neutral source.

- - - Updated - - -

And why should Israel recognize a government that refuses to recognize Israel?

The Palestinian government recognized the government of Israel, that government's right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly Israel's right to exist as part of the Oslo Accords. Now it's time for Israel to reciprocate by recognizing the State of Palestine's government, right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly the State of Palestine's right to exist, too.

Fatah, yes. Hamas, no. And it's Hamas that Israel won't recognize.

 

[Arctish]

The Palestinian government recognized the government of Israel, that government's right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly Israel's right to exist as part of the Oslo Accords. Now it's time for Israel to reciprocate by recognizing the State of Palestine's government, right to negotiate borders, security, and related issues, and most importantly the State of Palestine's right to exist, too.

Sorry but the Palestinian National Charter doesn't recognize Israel even though the pro-Palestinians claim that it now does. It specifically calls the Israelis the Zionist occupation. You can read the charter for yourself to see if you can find where they they don't claim the territory where Israel exists. It does recognize the Jews who were living in the area before the "Zionist invasion" (not those who immigrated there later) as Palestinian citizens however in Article 6. The Oslo Accords turned out to be little more than political posturing and an excuse for photo-ops.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

There is a lot wrong going on over there on both sides but denying reality isn't a resolution.

I've read the Charter. I've read the Oslo Accords. I've read first-hand accounts of the negotiations at Oslo, Camp David, Wye River, and most of the documents listed here. The fact is, the Palestinians publicly and officially recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. Israel has never offered a similar recognition of the Palestinian State's right to exist. Instead, Israeli leaders have shifted the goalposts time and again, first by quibbling over whether an amendment to the PLO Charter was properly adopted, and now that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state, otherwise it doesn't count.

How many times must the Palestinians recognize Israel?

Many commentators, including this author, have carefully picked apart the myriad problems involved with Israel's new demand that the Palestinians formally recognize it as a "Jewish state." But at least one of its most problematic aspects has been significantly under-examined and underappreciated. The new demand negates, both in effect and intention, the greatest of Palestinian concessions, their 1993 recognition of the State of Israel. There is an international consensus in favor of a two-state solution, and even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman now say they, too, support this goal after long careers opposing it. And in the quarter-century campaign to achieve a conflict-ending two-state agreement through direct talks, there remains a dangerous anomaly. One side, the Palestine Liberation Organization, recognized Israel up front. All other details aside, they have long since performed the sine qua non of a two-state agreement by recognizing Israel. The other side, Israel, has never recognized a Palestinian state or, in any formal, written, or legal sense, even the Palestinian right to a state.....

....What has yet to be fully recognized is that the single most significant impact of this "Jewish state" demand is that it effectively dismisses and reverses the 1993 Palestinian recognition of Israel. This concession made it ridiculous for anyone to argue that the core of the problem was Palestinians’ refusal to recognize Israel. But now, hey presto, it is once again possible to present Palestinian recognition of Israel as a major issue, because it wasn't recognition of Israel as a "Jewish state. "It doesn't matter that no one ever asked the Palestinians to do so until 2007, or that there are a great many complications, ambiguities, and grave difficulties associated with it. It has become a mantra of much of the pro-Israel constituency the world over that the 1993 recognition of Israel by the PLO is all but irrelevant, and that until Palestinians recognize Israel as a "Jewish state," their intention to end the conflict and live in peace remains very much open to question. So, this new demand solves the problem that one side is lived up to its core commitment under a two-state solution – recognizing the statehood of the other party – while the other side has not. It pushes the diplomatic, psychological, and political clock back before 1993, to an era where Palestinians are once again being asked to demonstrate their willingness to live in peace with Israel by uttering some magic mantra.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

It's time for Israel to pony up, and catch up to the Palestinians on this issue. If there's some rewriting of Charters that needs to be done, fine, they can all do that together after Israel reciprocates the Palestinian public declaration of Israel's right to exist by publicly declaring the Palestinian State also has a right to exist.

 

[skepticalbip]

Sorry but the Palestinian National Charter doesn't recognize Israel even though the pro-Palestinians claim that it now does. It specifically calls the Israelis the Zionist occupation. You can read the charter for yourself to see if you can find where they they don't claim the territory where Israel exists. It does recognize the Jews who were living in the area before the "Zionist invasion" (not those who immigrated there later) as Palestinian citizens however in Article 6. The Oslo Accords turned out to be little more than political posturing and an excuse for photo-ops.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

There is a lot wrong going on over there on both sides but denying reality isn't a resolution.

I've read the Charter. I've read the Oslo Accords. I've read first-hand accounts of the negotiations at Oslo, Camp David, Wye River, and most of the documents listed here. The fact is, the Palestinians publicly and officially recognized Israel's right to exist more than 20 years ago. Israel has never offered a similar recognition of the Palestinian State's right to exist. Instead, Israeli leaders have shifted the goalposts time and again, first by quibbling over whether an amendment to the PLO Charter was properly adopted, and now that Israel must be recognized as a Jewish state, otherwise it doesn't count.

How many times must the Palestinians recognize Israel?

No, the negotiators signed the paper. It wasn't ratified by the PA (they refused to ratify it) so means nothing. The same as if our President agreed to a treaty with another country means nothing until ratified by Congress. If you could link an amended Palestinian National Charter that reflects the Oslo Accords then you would have an argument.