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What Christian Islamophobes don't see

Perspicuo

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Empiricist, ergo agnostic
They hardly ever ask themselves,
What do you prefer, to be burned alive or be quickly beheaded?

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They never quit doing that, instead they had to be stopped by civil (secular) society.
 
Well the beheadings ISIS does aren't quick. They don't use a guillotine or a big ol' guy with a huge ax. Takes awhile to saw your way through a human neck.
 
Well the beheadings ISIS does aren't quick. They don't use a guillotine or a big ol' guy with a huge ax. Takes awhile to saw your way through a human neck.
Right, and it seems they don't "just" behead, but also stone people to death for adultery, throw men off rooftops for gay sex - and then stone them to death if they survive -, and so on.
For example: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/12/1...-gay-thrown-off-building-and-stoned-to-death/

Not to mention all of the women they enslave and rape for fun all the time. (e.g., http://ekurd.net/kurdish-yazidi-woman-burned-to-death-by-islamic-states-saudi-militant-2015-01-30 It seems she was burned to death too).


One can find plenty more sources supporting all sorts of atrocities by IE. Granted, not all sources on IS are reliable, but given their own propaganda, they seem no less evil than Christian witch hunters who burned people alive.
 
Well the beheadings ISIS does aren't quick. They don't use a guillotine or a big ol' guy with a huge ax. Takes awhile to saw your way through a human neck.

And when Christians burned people alive, they did it in a way that was much slower than the beheadings ISIS does.

The rack was far worse than the beheadings ISIS does.

Drawing and quartering was worse than the beheadings ISIS does.

Pointing out that the beheadings are slow changes none of these facts.
 
In addition to shooting or decapitating prisoners, stoning people to death for adultery, throwing men off rooftops for gay sex (and then stoning them to death if they survived), plus enslaving people for profit and raping women for fun, it seems - and it's their own propaganda video - that IS burned a Jordan pilot to death.

Granted, this particular atrocity (i.e., burning a person alive) is a new one as far as I know, but still, I don't think a debate about whether IS members who engage in such actions are less evil than Christian witch hunters or more or less equally so, or whether they cause less or more suffering or pretty much the same, helps the OP's case. The OP's case could be improved by just pointing out that Christian witch hunters committed all of those atrocities (and by the way there is plenty more Christian religious violence apart from witch burning), without making a comparison between the two groups between the amount of suffering they inflict.
 
without making a comparison between the two groups between the amount of suffering they inflict.
True. The fact of and extent of the various groups' crimes should be enough to get them to stfu.

So many of my Christain friends and coworkers think we should be impressed that Early Christains would rather be thrown to the lions than change their faith. I ask if we should be equally impressed with the pagans who the Christains threw to the lions when the Christains took over the Empire.

They're impressed by martyrs to the Christain faith, but uncomfortable talking about the martyrdom of the victims of the Christain faith....

I always figure sauce for the goose should be a sacrament to the gander.
 
In addition to shooting or decapitating prisoners, stoning people to death for adultery, throwing men off rooftops for gay sex (and then stoning them to death if they survived), plus enslaving people for profit and raping women for fun, it seems - and it's their own propaganda video - that IS burned a Jordan pilot to death.

Granted, this particular atrocity (i.e., burning a person alive) is a new one as far as I know...

New (for IS) and very unislamic. Burning people to death is forbidden by Mo' himself in a hadith:
Shahi Bukhari said:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Strange that a group claiming to represent the "real" islam would do something expressly forbidden by their "prophet".
 
Strange that a group claiming to represent the "real" islam would do something expressly forbidden by their "prophet".
Not strange at all.
Plenty of 'devout' christains have tattoos, or have been divorced, or continue to preach even after they'd been rejected twice, or spread lies.
There are also many tales of business travelers in Asia running into Islamics drinking, whoring and having a good time because "Allah cannot see us here."

Humans have always beeen quite willing to do whatever they wanted, then rationalize that it's what God or their profit would really have wanted if he'd thought it through....
 
The OP's argument is an example of the false equivalence fallacy.

on 15 July 1834, the Spanish Inquisition was definitively abolished by a Royal Decree signed by regent Maria Christina of the Two Sicilies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#End_of_the_Inquisition

By then the Spanish Inquisition had long since lost its virulence.

Those who claim moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity need to go back in time at least two centuries.

Moreover, nothing in the New Testament recommends force as a way of achieving or maintaining conversions. Nothing suggests that force is morally acceptable.

The Koran has verses like Surah IX: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find th em, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
 
The OP's argument is an example of the false equivalence fallacy.



Moreover, nothing in the New Testament recommends force as a way of achieving or maintaining conversions. Nothing suggests that force is morally acceptable.

From the very first book of the NT, The Gospel of Matthew:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
 
The OP's argument is an example of the false equivalence fallacy.

on 15 July 1834, the Spanish Inquisition was definitively abolished by a Royal Decree signed by regent Maria Christina of the Two Sicilies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#End_of_the_Inquisition

By then the Spanish Inquisition had long since lost its virulence.

Those who claim moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity need to go back in time at least two centuries.

Moreover, nothing in the New Testament recommends force as a way of achieving or maintaining conversions. Nothing suggests that force is morally acceptable.

The Koran has verses like Surah IX: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find th em, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

False equivalence?

We have to go back in time to find similar atrocities?

Really?

You mean like those African evangelicals who are setting children on fire for "witchcraft"?
 
New (for IS) and very unislamic. Burning people to death is forbidden by Mo' himself in a hadith:
Shahi Bukhari said:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Strange that a group claiming to represent the "real" islam would do something expressly forbidden by their "prophet".


There is also plenty of support for the contrary (especially given the 'jihad against the unbelievers and hypocrites' context in which these radicals think they are): http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/02/i...an-pilot-burned-alive-titled-with-quran-quote

Besides Ali, who definitely practiced immolation, is one of the four rightly guided caliphs (held in high esteem by muslims in virtue of being 'rightly guided') whose government the radicals of today strive to imitate in detail. In a larger context what the 'Islamic state' does has definitely much more in common with islam than what some think: http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/the-islamic-state-and-islam/ .

Finally the analogy made by some with the Christians of Middle Ages (Obama included) is dishonest and fails to take in account the intrinsic capacities of Christianity and islam to reform in non trivial ways. They are nowhere equal. Everything reduces to the basics of these religions and how much Rationality can be retained in the attempt to make them highly compatible with Modernity (not even the cardinals of Pope Urban used 'I have not come to bring peace...' to justify the crusades, the context is quite clear and easily explained today by the 'Jesus apocalyptic prophet' paradigm). I'm afraid islam fares way worse here.

Given the existing evidence I would imagine that a rational person I n the West would rather choose the way of intellectual honesty by admitting openly that a liberalism taken to the extreme has inside the germs of its own demise and that the Islamic Weltanshauung leads at the practical level to something quite different than what we see in the free societies. In reality 'islamophobia' is a fraudulent term, no need to invent it in order to protect muslims; its main purpose, at least its undesired effect, is to block all criticism of islam, no matter how rational...

For, even if it seems inconceivable for some, there is indeed a fully legitimate criticism of islam entirely along secular lines.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxkq5bHe_fA
 
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Finally the analogy made by some with the Christians of Middle Ages (Obama included) is dishonest and fails to take in account the intrinsic capacities of Christianity and islam to reform in non trivial ways.

Wait. How do those analogies "fail to take this into account" as opposed to "base the entire premise of their argument on that very point"?

There's nobody who practices religion who doesn't cherry-pick the shit out of it in order to have it conform to whatever paradigms they decide they like. Middle-class Muslim bankers in Toronto have zero differences with middle-class Christian bankers in Toronto because they both have the ability to ignore whatever aspects of their religion they find inconvenient and reinterpret other parts into ways that end up having their religion become the basis of whatever ethical guidelines they decided were nice beforehand.

Christians don't have to quit their job if a woman gets hired as their manager, despite the clear conflict with very straightforward Biblical passages not allowing this because God meant that "in context". Muslims can have cake at an office birthday party during Ramadan because "Allah allows exemptions for special occasions" (seriously, that was the actual rationale). There are zero rules for religions that can't be relaxed or ignored if the people practicing the religion decide they don't like them. There is nothing special about Islam which makes it any different than any other religion in that regard.

It is, of course, the worst religion by a large margin that's around today. That's because of the current interpretations of the religion, though, not because of anything inherent in the religion.
 
There's nobody who practices religion who doesn't cherry-pick the shit out of it in order to have it conform to whatever paradigms they decide they like. Middle-class Muslim bankers in Toronto have zero differences with middle-class Christian bankers in Toronto because they both have the ability to ignore whatever aspects of their religion they find inconvenient and reinterpret other parts into ways that end up having their religion become the basis of whatever ethical guidelines they decided were nice beforehand.

Clearly, you aren't familiar with the hate sites and pseudoscholarly literature that metacristi apparently spends all of his free time reading. If you did, you'd know that those bankers are all practicing taqiyya and waging stealth jihad.

Ever get a roll of quarters and notice one of them was missing? Know where that quarter is going? Hamas.
 
Finally the analogy made by some with the Christians of Middle Ages (Obama included) is dishonest and fails to take in account the intrinsic capacities of Christianity and islam to reform in non trivial ways.

Wait. How do those analogies "fail to take this into account" as opposed to "base the entire premise of their argument on that very point"?

There's nobody who practices religion who doesn't cherry-pick the shit out of it in order to have it conform to whatever paradigms they decide they like. Middle-class Muslim bankers in Toronto have zero differences with middle-class Christian bankers in Toronto because they both have the ability to ignore whatever aspects of their religion they find inconvenient and reinterpret other parts into ways that end up having their religion become the basis of whatever ethical guidelines they decided were nice beforehand.

Christians don't have to quit their job if a woman gets hired as their manager, despite the clear conflict with very straightforward Biblical passages not allowing this because God meant that "in context". Muslims can have cake at an office birthday party during Ramadan because "Allah allows exemptions for special occasions" (seriously, that was the actual rationale). There are zero rules for religions that can't be relaxed or ignored if the people practicing the religion decide they don't like them. There is nothing special about Islam which makes it any different than any other religion in that regard.

It is, of course, the worst religion by a large margin that's around today. That's because of the current interpretations of the religion, though, not because of anything inherent in the religion.


islam is 'peace' of course. There are some liberal, to some extent, muslims little doubt but how entitled are they rationally to claim that this is the islam of Muhammad, as presented in the quran and the hadith? You try to sell here the idea that liberal Christianity has the same amount of justification for its stance as these relatively liberal muslims (a minority, even in the West) which is patently false. I'm afraid the postmodernist / cultural relativist interpretation of texts cannot help you here, being not tenable, the basics of religions are not the bazar from where one choose whatever one wants while claiming full compatibility with Rationality, especially when extensive change is involved. There can exist however different degree of compatibility with Rationality and at this level all those honest intellectually would agree that a liberal Christian has much more justification for his stance than the muslims you talk about.

I've dealt too many times with this kind of 'arguments' from the part of the so called 'progressive liberals' (curiously I always thought i'm a liberal leaning toward the Left and not the fascist neo-con from the minds of these people) to not become amazed of how strong has this cultural relativist myth penetrated the masses. If you think that there is not a legitimate argument against islam you are completely wrong, there is one and anyone capable to understand will easily understand. Finally I'm afraid Pat Condell is absolutely right about these so called 'western progressives'...

Laughing at the new Inquisition
 
islam is 'peace' of course. There are some liberal, to some extent, muslims little doubt but how entitled are they rationally to claim that this is the islam of Muhammad, as presented in the quran and the hadith? You try to sell here the idea that liberal Christianity has the same amount of justification for its stance as these relatively liberal muslims (a minority, even in the West) which is patently false. I'm afraid the postmodernist / cultural relativist interpretation of texts cannot help you here, being not tenable, the basics of religions are not the bazar from where one choose whatever one wants while claiming full compatibility with Rationality, especially when extensive change is involved. There can exist however different degree of compatibility with Rationality and at this level all those honest intellectually would agree that a liberal Christian has much more justification for his stance than the muslims you talk about.

Oh? And why should anyone accept these claims at face value? Because you read them on JihadWatch? Or maybe it was Fjordman or one of the countless other crap sources you love to toss around?

Tom's point, which is that average people of any faith can and do, in huge numbers, pick and choose which elements of the religion they adhere to, was simple and easy to comprehend for anyone viewing the issue rationally. Anybody who actually has some form of meaningful interaction with theists, including Muslims, in the real world, understands this.

That you, Robert Spencer, Pat Condell and other Islamophobes can't grasp this says more about you all than anything else. Maybe if the lot of you stepped out of your echo chamber and actually tried getting to know some of the people you constantly otherize and paint in an absurdly broad and invariably negative light, you'd actually be worth listening to. But I doubt that's ever going to happen.
 
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