What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion?

[Sarpedon]

Aha, so it is a protoreligion if it necessarily leads to a religion. One might say that self replicating amino acids led to life, but not all self replicating amino acids did.

So what else is in your primordial religion soup that I am omitting?

 

[KeepTalking]

Aha, so it is a protoreligion if it necessarily leads to a religion. One might say that self replicating amino acids led to life, but not all self replicating amino acids did.

So what else is in your primordial religion soup that I am omitting?

Why the dig? You asked a question, and I answered it.

Do you not agree that I have sufficiently answered your question? If not, what part of the question do you feel was not answered?

Perhaps it will help if I remind you that the question you asked was the following:

What is the difference between 'ritual' and 'proto-religion?'

 

[Sarpedon]

It isn't a dig. It's a logical follow up question. You obviously think that ritual alone doesn't qualify. So what else is needed? I think my hypothesis is elegant. That doesn't make it true. All I want to know is what you would add to the equation to make it complete. I thought comparing it to biology was fun and playful.

 

[KeepTalking]

It isn't a dig. It's a logical follow up question.

In that case, allow me to apologize for taking it the wrong way.

You obviously think that ritual alone doesn't qualify. So what else is needed?

I think that a religious rationalization needs to be attached to the ritual, either before or after the first occurrence of the ritual, but I think I have already said that. In addition, there needs to be a sufficiently powerful and/or persuasive person to convince others that the ritual is a necessary component of that religious tradition. There are likely other factors at play, but I honestly have not put much thought into it, until you asked the question.

I think my hypothesis is elegant. That doesn't make it true. All I want to know is what you would add to the equation to make it complete. I thought comparing it to biology was fun and playful.

I don't necessarily disagree with your hypothesis, as long as you are leaving the word 'might' in there. My point is that there are numerous rituals that do not give rise to religion, so we can't say that just because a ritual is taking place that it is a 'proto-religion', though we could say that it MIGHT be a 'proto-religious' ritual. We simply don't know until well after the fact, when the religion is formed, and that ritual is a part of it. Also, to further separate the concepts of 'ritual' and 'proto-religion', things other than rituals can give rise to religion. An event, or an idea could be 'proto-religious' in nature, with no ritual involved until well after the formation of the religion.

So, to say that the ritualistic behavior of the chimps in this case IS 'proto-religious' would be unsupported, however, it would be just fine to say that the ritual MIGHT be 'proto-religious'. Until the chimps evolve to a state where they are able to communicate religious thought with us, tell us that they are worshiping the trees, and that the ritual of throwing stones at the trees is part of that religion, all we can do is offer speculation based on observations of how human religion may have formed from ritual.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But what is religious and what is not when it comes to defining religious behavior. The Constitution could just has well have stated that government shall make no law establishing a practice of 'religious behavior.'

What if I'm in a conversation with someone and they tell me I should go to church? So I tell them they should pay more attention to my invisible dragon that is at this moment wrapped around their feet. "Tread softly" I tell them.

Is my behavior religious?

 

[Underseer]

Religion without God???
Even apes aren't that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

WAIT - they haven't made atheism a religion yet have they?

So now people from animistic religions are stupid?

I thought it was just atheists you feel superior to.

 

[Underseer]

Religion without God???
Even apes aren't that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

WAIT - they haven't made atheism a religion yet have they?

Atheism is a single answer to a single question. By definition, you need more than one belief to have anything that constitutes a belief system.

Although it is cute that you would try to discredit atheism by comparing it to a religion. This shows that deep down, you know that something is wrong with the whole concept of religion. If you truly had the courage of your own convictions, you would try to discredit atheism by saying that it is not like a religion.