What do you say to a conservative Muslim colleague when you find his culture ridiculous?

[Juma]

Something more than a wedding ritual..

Wedding rituals are an element of a culture. As are all customs.

Segregated wedding ceremonies, like the one described in the OP, are an element of Middle-Eastern Islamic culture. As is the insistence on hiding women's faces.

What is culture if not a collection of beliefs and practices?

Yes. What has that to do with my posts?

The OP is about a seriously shitty wedding ceremony. Why start arguing about cultures?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There's a reason that people shouldn't discuss religion at the office. It's a dumb tradition but not one that's worth making things awkward in the lunch room. Congratulate him on getting married and don't give a shit about the stupid details over the ceremony.

If he brings religion up, just let him know that you're gay and his prancing around the office in a business suit like some kind of whore is inflaming your desires, which is entirely his fault, so you'd appreciate it if he could wear a niqab to the office so as to stop tempting you.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Does he know you are gay?

I have not been invited to this wedding. It was planned before I even knew him, and nobody from our team is invited.

The conflict is not about my reluctance to go after being invited. It's the strange relationship I have where I find him an affable and intelligent young man, but I also think he is basically scary crazy.

I don't know whether he knows about my sexual orientation. I've never told him directly.

All things considered, I'd drop the gay-bomb on him now. Today's scary crazy may may pale in comparison to how he may react at a later date.

 

[bigfield]

Wedding rituals are an element of a culture. As are all customs.

Segregated wedding ceremonies, like the one described in the OP, are an element of Middle-Eastern Islamic culture. As is the insistence on hiding women's faces.

What is culture if not a collection of beliefs and practices?

Yes. What has that to do with my posts?

The OP is about a seriously shitty wedding ceremony. Why start arguing about cultures?

The practice of hiding women from men is a staple of the more conservative Mid-East Islamic cultures (eg. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan), and is not limited to their wedding ceremonies.

Therefore, criticising the practice is not merely a criticism of the wedding ceremony; it is a criticism of the conservative Islamic culture that produced it.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Does he know you are gay?

I have not been invited to this wedding. It was planned before I even knew him, and nobody from our team is invited.

The conflict is not about my reluctance to go after being invited. It's the strange relationship I have where I find him an affable and intelligent young man, but I also think he is basically scary crazy.

I don't know whether he knows about my sexual orientation. I've never told him directly.

So you don't get how you can like the guy when you hate his religion?

 

[Juma]

Yes. What has that to do with my posts?

The OP is about a seriously shitty wedding ceremony. Why start arguing about cultures?

The practice of hiding women from men is a staple of the more conservative Mid-East Islamic cultures (eg. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan), and is not limited to their wedding ceremonies.

Therefore, criticising the practice is not merely a criticism of the wedding ceremony; it is a criticism of the conservative Islamic culture that produced it.

No, it is not. I can certainly criticise that culture too, but the criticism of a specific custom is just that: a criticism of that custom.

 

[bigfield]

The practice of hiding women from men is a staple of the more conservative Mid-East Islamic cultures (eg. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan), and is not limited to their wedding ceremonies.

Therefore, criticising the practice is not merely a criticism of the wedding ceremony; it is a criticism of the conservative Islamic culture that produced it.

No, it is not. I can certainly criticise that culture too, but the criticism of a specific custom is just that: a criticism of that custom.

You're just splitting hairs.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I may attend such a wedding if invited. What's the problem? This is just a different culture, though at most Arab weddings there is indeed music.

Well the very first problem is that, as a gay man, I wouldn't go to Dubai for love nor money.

There are gays in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. They just don't tell too many people.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Yes. What has that to do with my posts?

The OP is about a seriously shitty wedding ceremony. Why start arguing about cultures?

The practice of hiding women from men is a staple of the more conservative Mid-East Islamic cultures (eg. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan), and is not limited to their wedding ceremonies.

Therefore, criticising the practice is not merely a criticism of the wedding ceremony; it is a criticism of the conservative Islamic culture that produced it.

I'm OK with that.

- - - Updated - - -

In answer to the OP though, in a work environment, and considering the circumstances, I would congratulate him on his wedding and leave it at that.

 

[funinspace]

In answer to the OP though, in a work environment, and considering the circumstances, I would congratulate him on his wedding and leave it at that.

Yep!

I worked with an old fashioned Mormon, (though he stopped at 4 rug rats) who pretty much thought women belonged at home doing womanly things. He ended up under a woman tech lead that was younger than him, and it was pretty much more than he could handle. He ended up saying some derogatory shit about her in front of some contractors. He ended up with a letter of reprimand in his record and was the first on the list during a layoff a year or two later. He was also a nice enough guy, he just wasn't someone I felt comfortable chatting with. We also had a couple co-workers who were jack-Mormons and neither of them got along with the idiot other than on a professional level.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I have not been invited to this wedding. It was planned before I even knew him, and nobody from our team is invited.

The conflict is not about my reluctance to go after being invited. It's the strange relationship I have where I find him an affable and intelligent young man, but I also think he is basically scary crazy.

I don't know whether he knows about my sexual orientation. I've never told him directly.

So you don't get how you can like the guy when you hate his religion?

Why can't you like people while disliking one aspect of his personality? I've had several friends who were conservative Christians and I despised that aspect of their personality but liked other things about them. I kept things cordial when I explained that they were wasting their life over a fake character from a storybook and they kept things cordial when they explained that I was willfully blind to the obvious facts of the universe and my life was an empty and meaningless waste of time as a result. Then we got along while talking about other things.

 

[laughing dog]

So you don't get how you can like the guy when you hate his religion?

Ask any football "widow".

 

[KeepTalking]

A colleague in my team at work is a young man originally from Iraq, who is an observant and conservative Muslim.

Today, he was speaking about his wedding plans. His wife is from the Dubai, and that's where the wedding will be.

Apparently, it will be an 'orthodox' Muslim wedding. At what I guess you'd call the reception, the men will be in one room, with the groom (my colleague) front and centre. His wife will be in another room, with the female wedding guests. They need to be segregated because all the women will be veiled during the ceremony, but at the reception they obviously want to take the veils off. But they can only do that in an all-female crowd.

The reception will have no music and no dancing.

I was told I'd be able to see 'some' of the photos from the occasion (the ones showing men and veiled women only). Women would be allowed to see the photos of the unveiled women.

I stayed silent through most of this. He is a smart and friendly guy. But I could not help but be amazed at such a ridiculous, misogynistic wedding event. Now, I'm not a heterosexual man, but were I heterosexual, I'd imagine I'd want my wife at my side during my wedding celebration, not in another room enflaming the lusts of bisexual and lesbian women.

I was not invited, but I would never attend such a wedding. Would you?

I would never attend such a wedding. First, I have no desire to travel to Dubai, and second, I would avoid any wedding that does not serve alcohol (or at lest turn the other way when I smuggle in a flask), and does not allow music and/or dancing.

The question in the title of this thread is a different question, though: What do you say to a conservative Muslim colleague when you find his culture ridiculous?

In this case, I would say nothing. It's his wedding, he can celebrate it as he likes, and I could give a shit if it is the most dull and boring event of his lifetime.

 

[laughing dog]

If you feel you must say something, just wish him joy and happiness if you want your work relationship to stay cordial. On the otherhand, if you want to have a lousy work relationship, tell him how you really feel about such matters.

 

[TSwizzle]

A colleague in my team at work is a young man originally from Iraq, who is an observant and conservative Muslim.

Today, he was speaking about his wedding plans. His wife is from the Dubai, and that's where the wedding will be.

Apparently, it will be an 'orthodox' Muslim wedding. At what I guess you'd call the reception, the men will be in one room, with the groom (my colleague) front and centre. His wife will be in another room, with the female wedding guests. They need to be segregated because all the women will be veiled during the ceremony, but at the reception they obviously want to take the veils off. But they can only do that in an all-female crowd.

The reception will have no music and no dancing.

I was told I'd be able to see 'some' of the photos from the occasion (the ones showing men and veiled women only). Women would be allowed to see the photos of the unveiled women.

I stayed silent through most of this. He is a smart and friendly guy. But I could not help but be amazed at such a ridiculous, misogynistic wedding event. Now, I'm not a heterosexual man, but were I heterosexual, I'd imagine I'd want my wife at my side during my wedding celebration, not in another room enflaming the lusts of bisexual and lesbian women.

I was not invited, but I would never attend such a wedding. Would you?

Absolutely not, it sounds like a very dull event.

On a side note, I've seen similar arrangements for orthodox jewish weddings. Male and females segregated but music and dancing seemed to be ok with them, just not together of course. I don't know if alcohol was available though, probably not.

 

[Malintent]

The more of these people you let into the country, as well as those from other barbarous regions, then the more of this shit will go down in your nation.

I hereby nominate this post for most mentally retarded response of the year.

Ban-Jesus, Dubai is not in America.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The more of these people you let into the country, as well as those from other barbarous regions, then the more of this shit will go down in your nation.

I hereby nominate this post for most mentally retarded response of the year.

Ban-Jesus, Dubai is not in America.

Oh come on, we've had worse this year.

 

[ksen]

All marriage ceremonies are misogynistic.

eta: also marriage is rape

 

[Rhea]

I understand your conundrum. I, too, find it hard to keep a straight face while talking to someone about a topic that they find serious and I find either ridiculous or repulsive. Sometimes I'm able to just keep my opinion to myself and rant here.

Sometimes I talk about the differences, not in a condemning way, just an expository way. Such as, "oh how wonderful, congratulations on your wedding. I love wedding, it is such a wonderful opportunity to spend time with friends and family. I love getting a chance to chat with my husband's college mates, we don't see them enough and it's terrific to catch up. And you must be delighted to see your cousins and their spouses. I love that part of weddings." Big smile.

Because as much as I really am thinking how this segregation plays into all of the harm and inequalities that religion brings, I've accepted that they cannot start the conversation on that chapter and have a progressive or even friendly outcome.

So I stick to mentioning a thing we agree on, and describing it in a way that is true to my values - to try to share the parts I value most.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

All marriage ceremonies are misogynistic.

eta: also marriage is rapeprostitution

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