What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

[abaddon]

If you stopped counting at some point for a cigarette break, you will still have counted an infinity of numbers.

 

[untermensche]

If you stopped counting at some point for a cigarette break, you will still have counted an infinity of numbers.

Then you are saying there is a last integer. If they have all been counted.

 

[beero1000]

Log, Stardate ∞ - Subject has not yet realized that cardinality does not determine order type, or likely even what 'order type' means. The usual mix of logical fallacies, unsupported assertions, and confident ignorance still remains, showing no sign of abatement. Outlook dim.

 

[abaddon]

If you stopped counting at some point for a cigarette break, you will still have counted an infinity of numbers.

Then you are saying there is a last integer. If they have all been counted.

Nope.

And what do you mean "all been counted"?

It's the "dot dot dot" in {..., -3, -2, -1} that you can't seem to wrap your mind around.

 

[untermensche]

Then you are saying there is a last integer. If they have all been counted.

Nope. That's what you're trying to insert, as if that undoes infinity though it doesn't.

I am saying it is as possible for infinite time to pass as it is to count to the last integer.

And what do you mean "all been counted"?

Recite. Say out loud.

- - - Updated - - -

Log, Stardate ∞ - Subject has not yet realized that cardinality does not determine order type, or likely even what 'order type' means. The usual mix of logical fallacies, unsupported assertions, and confident ignorance still remains, showing no sign of abatement. Outlook dim.

Such a shame you are unable to form a logical argument.

Too bad you have no way to engage.

Saying infinite time PASSED is like saying all the integers were COUNTED.

How is modeling infinite time in the past as 1 hour prior and then 2 hours prior and then 3 hours and so on.... a different order type than modeling infinite time in the future as 1 hour in the future then 2 hours in the future and so on...?

They are the exact same set (1,2,3,4...)

 

[abaddon]

I am saying it is as possible for infinite time to pass as it is to count to the last integer.

I'm saying infinite time has passed regardless of whatever is the last integer that was counted in this imagination of someone reciting numbers.

To use a "simple model", look at this set:

{..., -3, -2, -1}

Yeah, it ends at -1 in this example. But the ellipsis denoting "continues endlessly" is there. You're focusing on the 1 or -1, or on a "final moment". Focus instead on the ellipsis. From it to the -1 is an infinity of integers, right?

That's why phrases like "ALL the integers" and "all been counted" are puzzling to me. It could name a part of the set or the whole set, or it could be a strange imagination about someone walking along a line of time while reciting numbers out loud.

 

[George S]

Time moves in one direction.

Time doesn't move. It is a dimension. Change in that direction is down entropy.

At any moment in time all the time prior to that moment has passed. A moment need not be defined more than it is a finite amount of time. If a million years is defined as a moment, infinite time is still infinite moments.

If the dimension of time is continuous then there are an infinity of moments in any duration at all.
I'm not sure how energy and mass would make a quantum leap to the next moment.

Infinite time can be modeled with the idea of reciting the integers. The integers never end just as infinite time never ends.

Only if the passage of time is not continuous.

If the claim is that infinite time can end at some moment that is like saying the counting of the integers could have ended there.

Time is a dimension. As such it goes to infinity in both time directions.
Does reality jump from distinct moment to distinct moment? If "yes," how do you know.

It is a totally irrational claim. It is impossible to rationally claim it.

This last is a nice case of strawman fallacy.

 

[untermensche]

I am saying it is as possible for infinite time to pass as it is to count to the last integer.

I'm saying infinite time has passed

That is something that needs proving.

To assume it is irrational.

To use a "simple model", look at this set:

{..., -3, -2, -1}

Yeah, it ends at -1 in this example.

To say it ends it to say everything before it took place.

How is that possible?

 

[untermensche]

Time doesn't move. It is a dimension. Change in that direction is down entropy.

Time moving is actually about things moving in it. But it is how we talk and it is not some misunderstanding.

At any moment in time all the time prior to that moment has passed. A moment need not be defined more than it is a finite amount of time. If a million years is defined as a moment, infinite time is still infinite moments.

If the dimension of time is continuous then there are an infinity of moments in any duration at all.

A moment cannot be zero time. You cannot divide any real amount of time infinitely and get a real amount of time.

I'm not sure how energy and mass would make a quantum leap to the next moment.

They are not static. If there is a limit to how little they can change then that is their minimum possible leap.

But you are totally avoiding the logic of the argument and talking about things not related to it.

A moment to be real has to be greater than zero. A finite AMOUNT of time has to be more than zero time.

Infinite time can be modeled with the idea of reciting the integers. The integers never end just as infinite time never ends.

Only if the passage of time is not continuous.

Non-sequitur.

The amount of time involved in speaking an integer is finite.

If the claim is that infinite time can end at some moment that is like saying the counting of the integers could have ended there.

Time is a dimension. As such it goes to infinity in both time directions.

No. It does not go anywhere. Things move within it.

But infinite time is the same thing as infinite events. Events like counting the integers.

Can infinite events occur before some moment in time? Can all the integers be counted?

 

[abaddon]

I'm saying infinite time has passed

That is something that needs proving.

To assume it is irrational.

I don't assume it. I don't even argue it's true. I'm not asserting that infinite time has passed in reality. Keep the context of the discussion in mind. I'm saying that in your topic about logical possibilities, and using your model that's based on comparing an infinite set of integers against time, infinite time has passed.

I don't know or care if it actually has. I'm just playing with the images and conundrum presented by you.

To use a "simple model", look at this set:

{..., -3, -2, -1}

Yeah, it ends at -1 in this example.

To say it ends it to say everything before it took place.

How is that possible?

I already addressed this. I don't see that it's a necessary condition.

There was a question that you edited out:

"You're focusing on the 1 or -1, or on a "final moment". Focus instead on the ellipsis. From it to the -1 is an infinity of integers, right?"

I'd be interested in an attempt at an answer.

 

[untermensche]

That is something that needs proving.

To assume it is irrational.

I don't assume it.

I assume it is not true as with all claims that have no argument or evidence to support them.

So to play my game we assume it is not true and are done with it.

To use a "simple model", look at this set:

{..., -3, -2, -1}

Yeah, it ends at -1 in this example.

To say it ends it to say everything before it took place.

How is that possible?

I already addressed this. I don't see that it's a necessary condition.

But you are saying you somehow arrived at the end of the series.

How did you get to the end without first being at EVERY bit of time described before the end?

How did you magically traverse an infinity?

How did you recite all the integers?

 

[abaddon]

But you are saying you somehow arrived at the end of the series.

Nope. I'm not saying that.

How did you get to the end without first being at EVERY bit of time described before the end?

In your imagination of the integer-reciting time-walker, he'll be at whatever number he's at during his walk at any given moment. Regardless of which number he's at during his recitation-journey there's an infinite amount of time behind him during which he recited an infinite number of integers.

He doesn't have to get to "the end" to have recite-walked an infinite number/length/time. He just has to have never begun, as there's no starting place to infinity.

How did you magically traverse an infinity?

The integer-reciting time-walker is your imagination. Which is ok, as an imagination it's an exploration of the logical possibility.

How did you recite all the integers?

What "all the integers" do you mean?

We're just using images and similes, right? You know this imagination doesn't have to be practical in reality, right?

And now, to try to bring your attention back to a previously missed question again:

There was a question that you edited out:

"You're focusing on the 1 or -1, or on a "final moment". Focus instead on the ellipsis. From it to the -1 is an infinity of integers, right?"

I'd be interested in an attempt at an answer.

Tell me what you make of the ellipsis at the "start" of integer-reciting time-walker's walk.

 

[untermensche]

But you are saying you somehow arrived at the end of the series.

Nope. I'm not saying that.

Is -1 the first or last element in your series? Is it the start or the alleged finish?

How did you get to the end without first being at EVERY bit of time described before the end?

In your imagination of the integer-reciting time-walker, he'll be at whatever number he's at during his walk at any given moment. Regardless of which number he's at during his recitation-journey there's an infinite amount of time behind him during which he recited an infinite number of integers.

So you are claiming it is possible to recite all the integers.

How is that done?

You can't just say: "At every moment it IS done".

You have to prove how it could be possible at ONE moment first to say it is possible at infinite moments.

How is it possible at any moment to have recited ALL the integers.

I've heard your claim it is possible. How is it possible?

Saying it is possible because you say it is possible won't exactly cut it.

If you have infinite time in the future can you ever finish reciting all the integers?

What makes you think it would be possible with infinite time in the past?

 

[untermensche]

Using the reciting of integers to model time.

Reciting a finite number of integers = a finite amount of time

Reciting the integers = working through infinite time.

Reciting ALL the integers = Infinite time completing. As the past completes at every moment.

Is it possible to recite ALL the integers?

I really think my point can be reduced to that question.

 

[beero1000]

Log, Stardate ∞ - Subject has not yet realized that cardinality does not determine order type, or likely even what 'order type' means. The usual mix of logical fallacies, unsupported assertions, and confident ignorance still remains, showing no sign of abatement. Outlook dim.

Such a shame you are unable to form a logical argument.

Too bad you have no way to engage.

Saying infinite time PASSED is like saying all the integers were COUNTED.

How is modeling infinite time in the past as 1 hour prior and then 2 hours prior and then 3 hours and so on.... a different order type than modeling infinite time in the future as 1 hour in the future then 2 hours in the future and so on...?

They are the exact same set (1,2,3,4...)

I create and evaluate logical arguments for a living and, in my professional opinion, you are failing. Badly.

If you took the time to understand the difference between an isomorphism and an order isomorphism, you might actually learn something. Alas, I suspect it is not to be.

 

[George S]

Is it possible to recite all the integers? As long as it is not a recitation where each recitation of a number takes time. Because there will be a number so large that the universe will reach the ending stable state before it can be completely spoken. Free quarks in such isolation that there is nothing in its past nor future light cone. Before that number can be completely spoken nothing is going on. Except, perhaps a quantum jitter spawns a big bang. Lather, rinse, repeat. Forever.

 

[untermensche]

Such a shame you are unable to form a logical argument.

Too bad you have no way to engage.

Saying infinite time PASSED is like saying all the integers were COUNTED.

How is modeling infinite time in the past as 1 hour prior and then 2 hours prior and then 3 hours and so on.... a different order type than modeling infinite time in the future as 1 hour in the future then 2 hours in the future and so on...?

They are the exact same set (1,2,3,4...)

I create and evaluate logical arguments for a living and, in my professional opinion, you are failing. Badly.

If you took the time to understand the difference between an isomorphism and an order isomorphism, you might actually learn something. Alas, I suspect it is not to be.

Anybody taught anything by you is getting ripped off.

You have NO ability to think reasonably and no ability to form a rational argument.

You are thoroughly full of shit.

You think it is possible to recite ALL the integers in the past and are far too stupid to understand the absolute impossibility of doing it.

You talk about a difference of order type IN THE SAME EXACT SET.

 

[untermensche]

Is it possible to recite all the integers? As long as it is not a recitation where each recitation of a number takes time....

What universe is that?

The question should be understood that there is no amount of time where it is possible.

The reciting of the integers on it's face is impossible. The passage of infinite time on it's face is impossible.

Yes it's impossible because humans and the universe itself may be finite but it would be impossible for an immortal human in an immortal universe to recite all the integers.

It cannot be done.

You cannot complete the infinity. Ever.

Not at the present moment, not at any possible present moment.

Infinite time cannot have passed at the present moment, not at any possible present moment.

 

[untermensche]

To those deluded believers in real infinities the burden is completely on you.

What is the proof that infinite time in the past is possible?

What exactly makes it possible?

How is it possible that an infinite amount of time completes at every moment?

In the statement ...-3, -2, -1 is it possible to actually have every number before the -1 expressed and then end on the -1?

Is it possible that every hour of infinite time was expressed before some present moment?

 

[fast]

What's the distinction between "time is infinite" and "time is eternal"?