What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

[untermensche]

So everybody who says their god is real we just assume it is possible without evidence?

I don't see that as rational or parsimonious.

I assume you meant we should not assume unnecessary things.

Like infinite time in the past.

How is that unnecessary?

Is it necessary that time be infinite in the past for us to be here?

The question of gods is totally different. All gods commonly believed in are physically impossible. (Due to specifics in how they are defined)

As it is physically impossible for infinite time to be fully expressed, anywhere, including the past.

 

[abaddon]

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

Suppose, for the sake of exploring the logical possibility without being dismissive of it, that there was no beginning to time. And so now at the present moment all the events in the past have ended. How long was the past in this (and no other) scenario?

 

[Juma]

How is that unnecessary?

Is it necessary that time be infinite in the past for us to be here?

The question of gods is totally different. All gods commonly believed in are physically impossible. (Due to specifics in how they are defined)

As it is physically impossible for infinite time to be fully expressed, anywhere, including the past.

”Time has been forever” is one of two possibilities. Neither of which that can be ruled out by logic alone, so yes it is equally necessary as ”time began a finite timespan ago”.

First: define ”fully expressed” in a way that doesnt require actions by livining intelligent creatures (as counting does)
Then show how it is impossible.

 

[ryan]

This is where derivatives come into play. A position on a hill at the halfway will be increasing as you move up it, finite but increasing. The point at the top of the hill is not increasing.

This is not a curve.

Time is the dimension and you have events within it.

We know curves or angles exist because we compare how one structure in a dimension changes with respect to another structure in another dimension. Why should structures extending through time compare differently to spatial structures?

Infinite time means infinite events, events that never end.

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

An event requires time; how do you define when an event ends?

 

[Juma]

This is not a curve.

Time is the dimension and you have events within it.

We know curves or angles exist because we compare how one structure in a dimension changes with respect to another structure in another dimension. Why should structures extending through time compare differently to spatial structures?

Infinite time means infinite events, events that never end.

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

An event requires time; how do you define when an event ends?

An event occurs at a specific time. It doeasnt need to have a start and end time.
You constantly conflate time, events and timespans.
That may be the reason for your confusion: even if time has been for ever there are no infinite timespans: the time between to events are always a finite timespan.

 

[untermensche]

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

Suppose, for the sake of exploring the logical possibility without being dismissive of it, that there was no beginning to time. And so now at the present moment all the events in the past have ended. How long was the past in this (and no other) scenario?

All we can know for certain is it was finite.

 

[untermensche]

Is it necessary that time be infinite in the past for us to be here?

The question of gods is totally different. All gods commonly believed in are physically impossible. (Due to specifics in how they are defined)

As it is physically impossible for infinite time to be fully expressed, anywhere, including the past.

”Time has been forever” is one of two possibilities.

They are two hypothetical possibilities but when examined not two rational possibilities.

Neither of which that can be ruled out by logic alone

You can easily rule out infinite time in the past. It implies that at any moment in a time an infinity completed. It implies an infinite amount of time completed. This is just like saying the reciting of ALL the integers completed.

It is absurd on it's face.

First: define ”fully expressed” in a way that doesnt require actions by livining intelligent creatures...

If there is time that implies some action can possibly be taking place.

Infinite time is infinite events.

But infinite events are not an amount of events. They are events that never end. Like the counting of the integers.

Putting a human in just makes it understandable. We can clearly see what infinite events would be when we look at the counting of the integers. They are events that cannot possibly end.

 

[untermensche]

We know curves or angles exist because we compare how one structure in a dimension changes with respect to another structure in another dimension.

No straight lines exist in the real world and no smooth curves exist.

Infinite time is infinite events.

They cannot be mapped out. They cannot be expressed. They cannot ever finish.

An event requires time; how do you define when an event ends?

We know for certain, beyond doubt that at any present moment (some finite amount of time) ALL the events in the past have ended.

We do not need to know when any individual event has ended if we know when they all have ended.

 

[Kharakov]

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

Suppose, for the sake of exploring the logical possibility without being dismissive of it, that there was no beginning to time. And so now at the present moment all the events in the past have ended. How long was the past in this (and no other) scenario?

He always refuses to answer this one directly. You can formulate all sorts of questions similar to that one, and he always responds in some disingenuous way. It's like his brain balks at how wrong he is and can't handle the question.

 

[abaddon]

Suppose, for the sake of exploring the logical possibility without being dismissive of it, that there was no beginning to time. And so now at the present moment all the events in the past have ended. How long was the past in this (and no other) scenario?

He always refuses to answer this one directly. You can formulate all sorts of questions similar to that one, and he always responds in some disingenuous way. It's like his brain balks at how wrong he is and can't handle the question.

Yes. I was being repetitive just to test (another "one time too many" really) his own repetitiveness. It's annoying but also something about how a brain does that is fascinating.

 

[untermensche]

How is saying the exact time cannot be known but the fact that it had to be a finite amount not answering the question? Not knowing the amount does not make it by magic infinite.

Nothing is infinite. It is a concept that was invented not discovered.

 

[ryan]

We know curves or angles exist because we compare how one structure in a dimension changes with respect to another structure in another dimension. Why should structures extending through time compare differently to spatial structures?

Infinite time means infinite events, events that never end.

But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.

An event requires time; how do you define when an event ends?

An event occurs at a specific time. It doeasnt need to have a start and end time.

Look at the context, "But at any moment ALL the events in the past have ended.".

You constantly conflate time, events and timespans.
That may be the reason for your confusion: even if time has been for ever there are no infinite timespans: the time between to events are always a finite timespan.

Confusion? I was talking about UM's definition for infinite, not mine, "A real infinity is not an amount. It is two ideas. The idea of amount and the idea of an increasing amount without end.".

 

[ryan]

No straight lines exist in the real world and no smooth curves exist.

That's not the point. The point is that rates of change, whether they are curves, plots, lines, etc, is when you compare objects in spatial dimensions or spatial to temporal dimensions.

A distance to time graph shows the rate by which stuff in the dimension of time is changing to some spatial dimension. Time for an object increases (or it appears to increase) but that just means that the
it has size in the temporal dimension.

Infinite time is infinite events.

They cannot be mapped out. They cannot be expressed. They cannot ever finish.

An event requires time; how do you define when an event ends?

We know for certain, beyond doubt that at any present moment (some finite amount of time) ALL the events in the past have ended.

We do not need to know when any individual event has ended if we know when they all have ended.

Don't you agree that beginnings and endings are the same thing, or at least arbitrary?

 

[untermensche]

This is looking at the situation from a moment in time. Not looking at the situation in action.

At a given moment, all the time in the past has been expressed.

If we freeze the clock at some moment in time ALL the time that came before that moment has passed.

If it was infinite time it could not have ALL passed.

Again, this is all about the impossibility of a real infinity ever completing.

That is all that is necessary to understand.

 

[ryan]

This is looking at the situation from a moment in time. Not looking at the situation in action.

At a given moment, all the time in the past has been expressed.

If we freeze the clock at some moment in time ALL the time that came before that moment has passed.

If it was infinite time it could not have ALL passed.

Again, this is all about the impossibility of a real infinity ever completing.

But like you have said before completion/end is the same as a beginning. So using your argument, we can think of today as the beginning and the past as never ending.

Ends of objects and beginnings of objects like objects extending through time are arbitrary.

 

[untermensche]

Completing a real infinity is like reciting all the integers.

Impossible.

 

[George S]

How is saying the exact time cannot be known but the fact that it had to be a finite amount not answering the question? Not knowing the amount does not make it by magic infinite.

Nothing is infinite. It is a concept that was invented not discovered.

It matters what the definition of "is" is here.

The idea of an infinite 3-space with a 4th dimension, time (x,y,z,t) is indeed merely an idea. These 4 dimensions define an event. A where and when.

The time dimension, this imagined ideal, is infinite. It has an arrow which points down-entropy.

The question is whether or not there is a point on that imagined continuum representing time before which nothing was happening.

Each moment of time had an at least imagined prior moment. Even if there is one (time 0) that represents something from nothing.

 

[George S]

Completing a real infinity is like reciting all the integers.

Impossible.

Completing a real infinity is really, really easy.
Again, here is a traditional one.
When I shoot an arrow at a target it has to get half way there. It has to get halfway there again. And again. Always going half way.
In fact an infinity of these half-way points exists. To get to the target we must sum (1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16,...) an infinite sum which adds up to 1 the whole distance.

 

[Kharakov]

Completing a real infinity is like reciting all the integers.

Impossible.

Spin around once. You just faced an infinite amount of directions in smooth spacetime. Congratulations. You've completed multiple infinities- because any finite pivot covers an infinite amount of directions in smooth spacetime.

I mean, that's simple. You aren't even aware of the infinite amount of infinities you cross over and encounter daily (none of us are), but... infinity happens.

 

[George S]

Just for a break, The Nature of Nothing
[YOUTUBE]X5rAGfjPSWE[/YOUTUBE]