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What if . . .

They were quite recently. I'm looking for a word that isn't "dishonesty" to describe this post.

That could have been a typo. If only there were some sort of explanation - I don't know, here - that reads something like:

"Bible Data is a comprehensive study guide for students of the Bible, whether they are atheist or theist in their approach. The objective here is to present accurate knowledge objectively so that the conclusion, no matter what the outcome, is based upon the data rather than the dogmatic, traditional, or religious paradigm. The data needn't lead to a belief system nor approval of a God concept. It is equally constructive for the reader to accept or reject, to believe or disbelieve, so long as they have accurate knowledge. The objective isn't ideological. Bible Data simply examines what is being said. In occidental culture, it is typical that such an examination, both theistic and atheistic, is founded upon traditional religious interpretation. This is problematic due to the syncretistic nature of religion achieving massive appeal. No religion has remained true, even to itself. Jewish thinking was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy after Alexander the Great's conquest in 332 BCE, a fact well-documented in historical texts. The same influence infiltrated Christianity after Constantine the Great in 325 CE. The motives of both efforts were political.

Examining the Biblical teachings and comparing those to theological or traditional teachings exposes obvious conflicts. When investigating the well-documented apostasy of Christianity, it isn't difficult to see the aforementioned pagan (outside) influence, which originated in Babylon and eventually infiltrated Greek religion and philosophy before being adopted by apostate Judaism and Christianity. Examples include the immortal soul from Socrates, the trinity from Plato, the cross from Tammuz and Constantine, hell from Milton and Dante, the rapture from Darby, Easter from Astarte (Ishtar), and Christmas from Saturnalia and Dickens.

As the apostle Paul said, people would prefer myth and fables (Greek mythos; Latin fabulas) over truth. Bible Data is devoted to getting back to the truth. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)"

But I digress and plug.


Oh, here's one. "Bible Believer".
Tom

Hmmm. I don't know. That might be stretching it. You could just say human and not blatantly demonstrate my careless accusations of ideological disfunction and fixation. I mean, make it more interesting and challenging for me. But then again, I have one foot outside the door already.
 
Looking on the net Pascal's Wager says there is nothing to loose if you believe in god and god does not exist.

If you o not believe in god and got exist you lose. So it is best to believe in god.

Unless I am missing something.

Would that be more accurate from the cultural perspective in the time he existed than today? Especially given that hell had been adopted by the apostate church from the pagans by then?

In other words, you have a choice, according to the Bible, whether to accept or reject God. Both are acceptable. What do you lose if you choose? If you choose to reject then you lose the possible everlasting life, if you choose to accept you lose everlasting destruction. There isn't a hell where the immortal soul is tormented forever as Pascal probably believed.

The unbeliever thinks when we die that's it. We're worm food. The Bible agrees but with the possible exception for a resurrection into life everlasting. Sin = death. The meek will inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

Pretending to believe to get a ticket to heaven is just silly.
Today we''d say Pascal 'gamed it out'. It is a general form of reasoning.

The Christian arguments and apologetics have not changed much. They come down to four or five basic arguments for existence of god and creationism .


I have heard Christians use Pascal's Wager without knowing what it is when trying to convert others, including myself. About 15 years ago I was invited to a private Evangelical meeting of about 20 people by an Evangelical I knew. Visions, reading and interpreting scripture, laying of hands for healing.

I had been doing countract technical work for him at his house for some months. We were talking about religion and he pointed out the window saying 'Just look it is obvious god created it!'. One of categorical Christian proofs of god, it is obvious.

The guys wife invited me to be a judge at a regional Christian home schooler debate tournament. Kids competed in debates for a chance to go to a national tournament to win scholarships.

For 4 days I listened to teens make arguments individually and in two person completion. Judges rated each competitor.

I heard all the Christian arguments. The home schooled kids were qiute good and well read, with theology weaved in all of it of course.

Yet again, atheist is a rejection of a belief it does not affirm any belief. There are many beliefs held by those who identify as atheist including forms of eternal existence past mortem.

I am not anti religion. There are both atheists and theiss who would like to destory each other. In our liberal western democracy a basic principle is self determination, we choose our paths. It is our American Christans who feel they have a gospel mandate to coerce ad perquisite others to their beliefs.

Like Unknown Soldier you appear ignorant of religion, atheism and non Christian beliefs, and science. Like him you appear to be unhappy and angry venting on how you imagine ahyeists'.
 
I’m beginning to wonder if he IS Unknown Soldier.
 
I’m beginning to wonder if he IS Unknown Soldier.

I've never posted with that moniker. Tried to do a search but that is difficult for any reasonable poster as they will quickly be banned. I have found a few of his posts and his style seems different than my wistful playful indifferent sort of jocular joviality.
 
DLH rails against his perceived religious and atheist ideologies, yet he is on a crusade here against atheists. Oh the irony.

He is against organized religion yet says Yahweh is his god.

I wonder if he is struggling to come to grips with a finite existence.
 
DLH, what do you mean by data as a belief? Is the bible data?

Fundamentalist militant atheist ideologues (FMAI's) hate to be wrong. Theists are humble so they can appreciate being wrong. It's a learning process. FMAI's have no humility so being wrong has no learning involved. That's why, I think, they are such ideologues and willfully ignorant. They want to learn whatever appeases their ideology. Their world view becomes what they are and they see learning as its destruction. Self destruction. That's also why they never answer questions. If you want to make sure that an atheist will shut his ignorant pie hole then ask him a simple question.

What do you think I mean by data? Where did I even use the word?


It's the nature of faith to assume that what you believe is right, despite any underlying doubts.

As a lack of conviction in the existence of God or gods is justified by the absence of evidence for their existence, that can change at the moment we have evidence for the existence of a God or gods.
 
It's the nature of faith to assume that what you believe is right, despite any underlying doubts.

You can no more dictate what faith is than you can love or hatred because they are subjective.

As a lack of conviction in the existence of God or gods is justified by the absence of evidence for their existence, that can change at the moment we have evidence for the existence of a God or gods.

That is evidently wrong because if you can demonstrate the existence or nonexistence of one god it doesn't negate the other.

So, what you are doing in each case is projecting your own ideological insistence, however uninformed or poorly constructed it may be.
 
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DLH rails against his perceived religious and atheist ideologies, yet he is on a crusade here against atheists. Oh the irony.

I rail against my own perceived religious and atheist ideologies? No. I rail against ideology in general, whether atheistic or theistic. And I don't consider what I do here a crusade against atheists. I have no problem with atheism, religion or ideology themselves.

He is against organized religion yet says Yahweh is his god.

That's sort of true. I am anti organized religion. I have never and will never be a part of any religious or political group. Not because I think religion and politics are bad in and of themselves, but because they are abused, neglected and corrupted after having been embraced by the masses for political, social or financial gain. The same with everything, really. Music, art, science, atheism, theism, fashion, etc.

The ancient Biblical written Hebrew had no vowels, only consonants. Since the language isn't spoken in the modern-day, the pronunciation of words and names like Jehovah and Jeremiah are unknown. The tetragrammaton, consisting of four letters YHWH may have been pronounced in a variety of ways with any of the vowels they spoke. Th nglsh vsn wld lk lk ths. They filled in the vowells when they read it.

Therefore, no one knows how words or names were pronounced. Jewish scholars prefer Yahweh, but they would also prefer Yirmeyah or Yirmeyahu over Jeremiah. Since I speak English, it is pronounced Jehovah or Jeremiah. In Italian it is Geova, in Romanian it's Iehova, in Turkish it's Yehova, etc.

People get hung up on the name much like they do the word God. It takes on a superstitious life of its own.

I wonder if he is struggling to come to grips with a finite existence.

I have no problem with a finite existence. In fact, I haven't really worked out if everlasting life is something I would want. That doesn't change my trust or faith in Jehovah. It more accurately reflects my lack of trust in myself and sinful nature. How could I know? What it (everlasting life in Jehovah's kingdom) would be or if I would want that?
 
DLH what is your connection with the bible and Yahweh?

Unknown Soldier was an anti atheist on the forum similar to your posts. Then he seemed to align with atheism. Then someone saw his posting on Christian forums as a Christians.

So, do you reject supernatural religious beliefs and gods or not? Or are you some kind of agnostic?
 
It's the nature of faith to assume that what you believe is right, despite any underlying doubts.

You can no more dictate what faith is than you can love or hatred because they are subjective.

I dictate nothing. There are people who believe in things that are not supported by evidence, be it ideology, politics, religion or just winning the lottery this Saturday, it happens, and in this instance 'faith' is defined as a belief held without the support of evidence.


As a lack of conviction in the existence of God or gods is justified by the absence of evidence for their existence, that can change at the moment we have evidence for the existence of a God or gods.

That is evidently wrong because if you can demonstrate the existence or nonexistence of one god it doesn't negate the other.

So, what you are doing in each case is projecting your own ideological insistence, however uninformed or poorly constructed it may be.

If there is no evidence for the existence of something, there is no justification to believe that it does exist. If it's something possible but hidden and evidence comes to light, that is the point of justification for a conviction.

Some things are just so unlikely that that there is no point, the Greek gods atop Mt Olympus....how likely is Allah and the 72 virgin prize on offer?
 
I dictate nothing.​

I'm always on about ideology. To the point of being tired of it, but I see it as a tarnish of sorts of everything. A sort of tyranny produced by ego, mostly. The man who coined the term called it the science of ideas. That's good, but I prefer it as the study of ideas. Wikipedia gives the etymology as: The term ideology originates from French idéologie, itself coined from combining Greek: idéā (ἰδέα, 'notion, pattern'; close to the Lockean sense of idea) and -logíā (-λογῐ́ᾱ, 'the study of'). Scientia (Latin knowledge).

I see things concretely. In a practical sense. Definitive and conclusive doesn't imply, to me, stagnant, but rather evolving. Concrete is rigid temporally but disintegrating. Like everything, there is good and bad facets and aspects of it. Words have definitions, meanings and etymologies. The reasons behind words evolve. They have history. So does knowledge. Knowledge can become stagnant, dogmatic. Science explores or examines, investigates. I would explain ideology as an idea that has become stagnant and upheld as dogmatic. Tyrannical.

I always scratch my head at the fundamentalist science minded militant atheistic perspective on science and faith. It seems science is a crutch to them. Dogmatic. And faith is satanic (adversarial) to their world view. They are vulnerable, it seems, to the possibility of being wrong since their "knowledge" or ideas of the world around them are fragile or evolving.

It seems to me that you are saying this is what faith is meant to be so your faith makes you this and there's no other explanation regardless of how poorly constructed your understanding on the subject might or might not be. You dictate.
There are people who believe in things that are not supported by evidence, be it ideology, politics, religion or just winning the lottery this Saturday, it happens, and in this instance 'faith' is defined as a belief held without the support of evidence.​

I often use the Latin word credit, which means believer. From that word comes credible, credentials, credulity, incredible, credibility. I often find it necessary to define evidence as the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Most everything has evidence for and against it. Evidence is argument. Evidence and faith can be, but are not necessarily blind. One man's evidence of evolution can be another man's evidence of creation. Natura naturata.

To say that anything exists without the support of evidence seems to me odd. It's as if saying evidence dictates my reality rather than reality dictating my evidence. This, it must be agreed, is infallible truth because of the evidence I accept or conclude with, in agreement with these credible sources. It just seems - desperate?

If there is no evidence for the existence of something, there is no justification to believe that it does exist. If it's something possible but hidden and evidence comes to light, that is the point of justification for a conviction.​

You are taking faith into the realm of what is assumed to be true? They call it faith, credit, credential, for a reason. It's trust, confidence. Paul's definition you may be familiar with? "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Hebrews 11:1) When it comes to God everyone, whether atheist or theist is agnostic in the sense that they don't know.

Science is built on systematic observation, experimentation, and evidence-based reasoning. But faith - not as blind belief, but as a kind of trust. Scientists have to trust that the universe is orderly and consistent, that patterns they observe today will hold tomorrow. That’s not something you can prove with a single experiment; it’s an assumption, a working faith in what’s called the uniformity of nature. Without it, the whole scientific method would collapse - you’d never be confident that gravity won’t just switch off next Tuesday.

Then there’s faith in the process itself. Scientists trust that rigorous testing, peer review, and replication will eventually sift truth from noise, even if it’s messy along the way. Think about how many times a hypothesis gets tweaked or tossed out - yet they keep going, trusting the system will refine our understanding over time. That’s not knowledge in the moment; it’s faith in a method.

And on a personal level, scientists often lean on a kind of intuitive faith - call it a hunch - when picking what to study. There’s no guarantee a theory will pan out, but they trust their instincts and dive in anyway. Einstein’s pursuit of relativity started with a gut feeling about how space and time should fit together, long before the math and evidence caught up.

So, faith in science isn’t about abandoning evidence for dogma. It’s trust acting as a scaffold - holding things steady where knowledge hasn’t yet solidified. The trick is, that scaffold gets replaced with data as soon as possible. Faith keeps the engine running; science fuels it.

Some things are just so unlikely that that there is no point, the Greek gods atop Mt Olympus....how likely is Allah and the 72 virgin prize on offer?​

Sure. But you also have to look at what things are actually meant to be. I always use Shinto gods and goddesses as an example. Luck is another example.
 
DLH what is your connection with the bible and Yahweh?

My connection?

Unknown Soldier was an anti atheist on the forum similar to your posts.

Don't worry about who I am, concern yourself with the words I assemble. Don't project all of theism or anti-atheism ideology upon me. Don't worry about people like me and Unknown Soldier out to threaten your world view. Don't worry about someone fucking around your cart.

I recommend you read this.

Then he seemed to align with atheism. Then someone saw his posting on Christian forums as a Christians.

I avoid posting on Christian forums. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, Christian or not. I wouldn't recommend an adherence to any ideology, theistic, atheistic, agnostic - especially as a group which you then have to support and conform to.

So, do you reject supernatural religious beliefs and gods or not?

I reject organized religion and ideology. Politics, religion, etc. I think of the supernatural as simply beyond science. The world, the universe isn't simply science. I think of spirituality as the subtle often invisible aspects of reality. From the Greek pneuma (pneumonia, pneumatic) which is translated in the Bible, along with the Hebrew ruach, as spirit, wind, breath, compelled mental inclination and highly intelligent extraterrestrial beings outside of the physical realm. God is a spirit, angels, cherubs, seraph, demons, germs, breath, wind - the spirit of the horse was broken.

Some gods exist, some don't. They don't have to exist to be gods. Gods can be supernatural, mortal, inanimate objects, conceptual, fictional, literal - God means venerated. The most high God is the God most venerated by an individual. There are countless gods.

It's an English word which means to pour or libate because the pagans sacrificed liquids to the gods they venerated. Later the Christian missionaries adopted the term for obvious reasons. It's the same thing. The Hebrew word El and its variations, mean mighty/strong one.

Or are you some kind of agnostic?

No one knows whether or not Jehovah God exists. They have faith. Faith is important because God wants his followers to want what he wants. It goes back to the tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad. But I'm not agnostic in the sense you might be suggesting. I reject Agnosticism. The being that created us in his image isn't unknowable. Divinity is a very simple concept only complicated by semantics and religious and irreligious dogma.
 
DLH what is your connection with the bible and Yahweh?

Don't worry about people like me and Unknown Soldier out to threaten your world view. Don't worry about someone fucking around your cart.

You flatter yourself that you threaten anyone’s world view.
I recommend you read this.
You promote it with a link in all your posts.
Then he seemed to align with atheism. Then someone saw his posting on Christian forums as a Christians.

I avoid posting on Christian forums. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, Christian or not. I wouldn't recommend an adherence to any ideology, theistic, atheistic, agnostic - especially as a group which you then have to support and conform to.

Atheism isn’t an ideology, it’s a lack of belief.
 
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