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What in the hell is going on? An interesting hypothesis.

Axulus

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Right leaning skeptic
Note that this was written before Trump getting elected, but still just as relevant:

Donald Trump may get the nuclear suitcase, a cranky “park bench” socialist took Hillary Clinton to the wire, many countries are becoming less free, and the neo-Nazi party came very close to assuming power in Austria. I could list more such events.

Haven’t you, like I, wondered what is up? What the hell is going on?

I don’t know, but let me tell you my (highly uncertain) default hypothesis. I don’t see decisive evidence for it, but it is a kind of “first blast” attempt to fit the basic facts while remaining within the realm of reason.

The contemporary world is not very well built for a large chunk of males. The nature of current service jobs, coddled class time and homework-intensive schooling, a feminized culture allergic to most forms of violence, post-feminist gender relations, and egalitarian semi-cosmopolitanism just don’t sit well with many…what shall I call them? Brutes?

Quite simply, there are many people who don’t like it when the world becomes nicer. They do less well with nice. And they respond by in turn behaving less nicely, if only in their voting behavior and perhaps their internet harassment as well.

Female median wages have been rising pretty consistently, but the male median wage, at least as measured, was higher back in 1969 than it is today (admittedly the deflator probably is off, but even that such a measure is possible speaks volumes). A lot of men did better psychologically and maybe also economically in a world where America had a greater number of tough manufacturing jobs. They thrived under brutish conditions, including a military draft to crack some of their heads into line.

To borrow a phrasing from Peter Thiel, perhaps men did better in the age of “technological progress without globalization” rather than “globalization without technological progress,” as has been the case as of late.

Here’s a line from Martin Wolf:

Princeton professors Anne Case and Angus Deaton note, in addition, a sharp relative deterioration in mortality and morbidity among middle-aged white American men, due to suicide, and drug and alcohol abuse.

(Addendum: note this correction.)

For American men ages 18-34, more of them live with their parents than with romantic partners.

Trump’s support is overwhelming male, his modes are extremely male, no one talks about the “Bernie sisters,” and male voters also supported the Austrian neo-Nazi party by a clear majority. Aren’t (some) men the basic problem here? And if you think, as I do, that the incidence of rape is fairly high, perhaps this shouldn’t surprise you.

The sad news is that making the world nicer yet won’t necessarily solve this problem. It might even make it worse.

Again, we don’t know this is true. But it does help explain that men seem to be leading this “populist” charge, and that these bizarre reactions are occurring across a number of countries, not just one or two. It also avoids the weaknesses of purely economic explanations, because right now the labor market in America just isn’t that terrible. Nor did the bad economic times of the late 1970s occasion a similar counter-reaction.

One response would be to double down on feminizing the men, as arguably some of the Nordic countries have done. But America may be too big and diverse for that really to stick. Another option would be to bring back some of the older, more masculine world in a relatively harmless manner, the proverbial sop to Cerberus. But how to do that? That world went away for some good reasons.

If this is indeed the problem, our culture is remarkably ill-suited to talking about it. It is hard for us to admit that “all good things” can be bad for anyone, including brutes. It is hard to talk about what we might have to do to accommodate brutes, and that more niceness isn’t always a cure. And it is hard to admit that history might not be so progressive after all.

What percentage of men are brutes anyway? Let’s hope we don’t find out.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/what-in-the-hell-is-going-on.html

I would also add that the immigrant backlash arrising in part from Islamic terrorism has something to do with the rise and appeal off these kind of right wing parties.
 
There might be a teeny tiny grain of truth in that but it's mostly a free market ideologue bending over backwards so as not to see the big picture : globalisation and neoliberalism backfiring all over the place.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSS4GCA__As[/YOUTUBE]​
 
I think white males have been sidelined along with others, but because they were traditionally privileged, they've lost ground where others have gained.

The real is problem is as Carnard says: neoliberal chickens coming home to roost.
 
In the 1950s when I was about 6 years old, it dawned on me that if those "starving children in India" really existed, then the American Dream lifestyle to which I had become accustomed was doomed to disappear within my expected lifetime. By the time I was about 14 and had traveled some and became a little bit aware of how other people were living, I knew that although economic parity was not in the cards, the coming trend would be in that direction.
What I didn't "get" until much later, was that the former beneficiaries of economic inequality would rise up in protest as an American population segment. It took even longer to realize that because their numbers were growing, there would be a point when they could elect representatives who would promise to put a stop to it.
Unfortunately for that (relatively) disenfranchised segment, there is nothing that anyone - even Saint Cheeto-Face - can do about it. The frustration level is not going to stop rising; my only hope is that there doesn't emerge a specific demon that can be blamed and attacked for it.
Like it or not, most of the people on the planet are seeking something closer to economic equality, and Americans are held out as consuming more than "their share". In truth, even most poor Americans are living like Kings compared to the lot of those who first stole this continent from its former inhabitants, or compared to MOST people on the planet. We will either come to grips with that and acquiesce to greater economic parity, or be consigned to a state of perpetual war against those who would - as many of us see it - "take what is ours".
 
Note that this was written before Trump getting elected, but still just as relevant:

Donald Trump may get the nuclear suitcase, a cranky “park bench” socialist took Hillary Clinton to the wire, many countries are becoming less free, and the neo-Nazi party came very close to assuming power in Austria. I could list more such events.

Haven’t you, like I, wondered what is up? What the hell is going on?

I don’t know, but let me tell you my (highly uncertain) default hypothesis. I don’t see decisive evidence for it, but it is a kind of “first blast” attempt to fit the basic facts while remaining within the realm of reason.

The contemporary world is not very well built for a large chunk of males. The nature of current service jobs, coddled class time and homework-intensive schooling, a feminized culture allergic to most forms of violence, post-feminist gender relations, and egalitarian semi-cosmopolitanism just don’t sit well with many…what shall I call them? Brutes?

Quite simply, there are many people who don’t like it when the world becomes nicer. They do less well with nice. And they respond by in turn behaving less nicely, if only in their voting behavior and perhaps their internet harassment as well.

Female median wages have been rising pretty consistently, but the male median wage, at least as measured, was higher back in 1969 than it is today (admittedly the deflator probably is off, but even that such a measure is possible speaks volumes). A lot of men did better psychologically and maybe also economically in a world where America had a greater number of tough manufacturing jobs. They thrived under brutish conditions, including a military draft to crack some of their heads into line.

To borrow a phrasing from Peter Thiel, perhaps men did better in the age of “technological progress without globalization” rather than “globalization without technological progress,” as has been the case as of late.

Here’s a line from Martin Wolf:

Princeton professors Anne Case and Angus Deaton note, in addition, a sharp relative deterioration in mortality and morbidity among middle-aged white American men, due to suicide, and drug and alcohol abuse.

(Addendum: note this correction.)

For American men ages 18-34, more of them live with their parents than with romantic partners.

Trump’s support is overwhelming male, his modes are extremely male, no one talks about the “Bernie sisters,” and male voters also supported the Austrian neo-Nazi party by a clear majority. Aren’t (some) men the basic problem here? And if you think, as I do, that the incidence of rape is fairly high, perhaps this shouldn’t surprise you.

The sad news is that making the world nicer yet won’t necessarily solve this problem. It might even make it worse.

Again, we don’t know this is true. But it does help explain that men seem to be leading this “populist” charge, and that these bizarre reactions are occurring across a number of countries, not just one or two. It also avoids the weaknesses of purely economic explanations, because right now the labor market in America just isn’t that terrible. Nor did the bad economic times of the late 1970s occasion a similar counter-reaction.

One response would be to double down on feminizing the men, as arguably some of the Nordic countries have done. But America may be too big and diverse for that really to stick. Another option would be to bring back some of the older, more masculine world in a relatively harmless manner, the proverbial sop to Cerberus. But how to do that? That world went away for some good reasons.

If this is indeed the problem, our culture is remarkably ill-suited to talking about it. It is hard for us to admit that “all good things” can be bad for anyone, including brutes. It is hard to talk about what we might have to do to accommodate brutes, and that more niceness isn’t always a cure. And it is hard to admit that history might not be so progressive after all.

What percentage of men are brutes anyway? Let’s hope we don’t find out.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/what-in-the-hell-is-going-on.html

I would also add that the immigrant backlash arrising in part from Islamic terrorism has something to do with the rise and appeal off these kind of right wing parties.
I'd say the memory of WWII and its horrors have disappeared and a bunch of whiny ass pussy shits want to make the world white again.

Some whites seem to think that if everything isn't white male, it isn't fair. They think rivers being clean is a burden, handicap access is communism, gays being open is satanism, and health care access is a privilege. In other words, they are idiots.
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSS4GCA__As[/YOUTUBE]​

This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSS4GCA__As[/YOUTUBE]​

This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'

+2 Agree. This.

Even if Trump is a total disaster, his election will have been worthwhile. If only to give the democrats the spanking they so desperately needed right now.
 
Even if Trump is a total disaster, his election will have been worthwhile. If only to give the democrats the spanking they so desperately needed right now.

Yes. This is a slim opportunity for the USA to create an actual liberal party, as Clinton and the banksters are soundly defeated. Four years of Trump may be a small price to pay for the opportunity to fill the void they leave with something actually for the people. We can only hope.
 
Reminded me Red from "That's 70 Show" Between Hillary and Trump he would grudgingly vote Trump I think, certainly would not be a fan of Hillary.
This hypothesis is not new and after autopsy it's pretty clear that Hillary totally ignored these voters who eventually brought victory to Trump.
 
Reminded me Red from "That's 70 Show" Between Hillary and Trump he would grudgingly vote Trump I think, certainly would not be a fan of Hillary.
This hypothesis is not new and after autopsy it's pretty clear that Hillary totally ignored these voters who eventually brought victory to Trump.
No. Any reasonable look at the numbers showed that liberal support of Clinton hurt her most. While angry white voters who were let down by the America Government (who also think that the American Government shouldn't be in the place to create jobs) helped Trump, but the margins that Clinton lost by in PA, MI, and WI were hardest hit by a drop in liberal turnout.
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSS4GCA__As[/YOUTUBE]​

This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'

Did the established political parties in the UK abandon the people (Brexit)?
Did the established political parties in Austria abandon the people (rise of neo-Nazi party)?
Have the established political parties in France abandoned the people (rise of National Front party)?
Did the established political parties in Poland abandon the people (far right Law and Justice party in power)?
Did the established political parties in Hungary abandon the people (right-wing populist party Fidesz in power)?
Merkel and the Christian Democrats in Germany are in trouble with right wing populism, did Merkel and the established political parties in Germany abandon the people?

Why are men at the forefront of these movements and the biggest support base? Do you think that these parties abandoned men but not women?

I could go on...
 
Reminded me Red from "That's 70 Show" Between Hillary and Trump he would grudgingly vote Trump I think, certainly would not be a fan of Hillary.
This hypothesis is not new and after autopsy it's pretty clear that Hillary totally ignored these voters who eventually brought victory to Trump.
No. Any reasonable look at the numbers showed that liberal support of Clinton hurt her most. While angry white voters who were let down by the America Government (who also think that the American Government shouldn't be in the place to create jobs) helped Trump, but the margins that Clinton lost by in PA, MI, and WI were hardest hit by a drop in liberal turnout.
It did not hurt her in California it seems. I think her campaign was simply getting wrong signals.
In any case, you can't really expect Clinton getting Obama's numbers
 
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This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'

Did the established political parties in the UK abandon the people (Brexit)?
Did the established political parties in Austria abandon the people (rise of neo-Nazi party)?
Have the established political parties in France abandoned the people (rise of National Front party)?
Did the established political parties in Poland abandon the people (far right Law and Justice party in power)?
Did the established political parties in Hungary abandon the people (right-wing populist party Fidesz in power)?
Merkel and the Christian Democrats in Germany are in trouble with right wing populism, did Merkel and the established political parties in Germany abandon the people?

Why are men at the forefront of these movements and the biggest support base? Do you think that these parties abandoned men but not women?

I could go on...

For Hungary and Poland I think that they are just trying to stop the problem of excessive immigration from happening in the first place. They are spooked by what happened in Western Europe recently.

Probably many other issues as well.

As far as it being men -- well women focus on home and hearth and men on the border. Genetics, my man. Thank our chimp ancestors.
 
This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'

Did the established political parties in the UK abandon the people (Brexit)?
Yes. While British workers face a race to the bottom, politicians of the supposed left spout neoliberal doctrine about how marvellous cheap foreign labour is, how much it adds to gdp (despite the average Brit barely seeing a penny since 1979) etc. The Tories OTOH have used the little-England vote to push market globalist policy since forever. Brexit couldn't have happened without millions of non-racist Labour voters and Tory voters who couldn't name a single EU regulation delivering a big fuck you to the hyprocritical, out of touch political class.

Ditto the US and Trump.

Did the established political parties in Austria abandon the people (rise of neo-Nazi party)?
Have the established political parties in France abandoned the people (rise of National Front party)?
Yes:
The Financial Times said:
To some observers of French politics, the FN’s economic policies, which include exiting the euro and throwing up trade barriers to protect industry, read like something copied from a 1930s political manifesto.

Christian Saint-Étienne, an economist, recently described the vision as “Peronist Marxism”.

Yet they chime with many voters working in traditional industries that have been hit by Europe’s economic stagnation — and by the French state’s increasing difficulty in safeguarding jobs.

It is no accident, for example, that the FN is expected to do well in Nord-Pas-de-Calais, located in the country’s northern rust belt. A win there would mark the first time the party won a regional election since its founding in 1972.

Mr Philippot is a close confidant of Marine Le Pen, the FN’s president and likely presidential candidate in 2017. He has been at the forefront of her campaign to “detoxify” a party long associated with racism and anti-Semitism and broaden its appeal with a simple message of so-called economic patriotism.

“The left — just like the right — has succumbed to the neoliberal policies of the European Union,” he says. “They have destroyed public services and have implemented austerity.”
Axulus said:
Did the established political parties in Poland abandon the people (far right Law and Justice party in power)?
Did the established political parties in Hungary abandon the people (right-wing populist party Fidesz in power)?
Merkel and the Christian Democrats in Germany are in trouble with right wing populism, did Merkel and the established political parties in Germany abandon the people?
That would appear to be the perception of the respective electorates, or you wouldn't even be asking. Most likely the centre parties don't have a coherent response to globalisation because they've bought into the neoliberal orthodoxy. Least likely it's all about male "brutes" for whom globalisation is too "nice"

Why are men at the forefront of these movements and the biggest support base? Do you think that these parties abandoned men but not women?
For the same reason men are at the forefront of the neoliberal parties the neo-nationalist parties are displacing. Perhaps women are more averse to the ugly xenophobia which comes with that. Tyler Cowen is trying to conflate that with the absurd idea that it's all about male "brute" aversion to some "nice" and "kind" and "feminized" world neoliberalism has delivered them. But then he would, wouldn't he, because he's one of neoliberalism's high pontiffs.
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSS4GCA__As[/YOUTUBE]​

This is bang on. The Democrats abandoned the people and actual liberals paying only lip service and depending on the rhetoric that they are all that stand between the people and disaster from the far right... well people finally called their bluff and now you got Trump. Let's hope this means a reformation on the left for a real political party looking out for interests other than the banksters'

I disagree. That does nothing to explain Trump's appeal or the global rise is fascistic ideology.
The Democrats issues only explain people not getting on board with Hillary. No union worker in Michigan voted for Trump merely because he fed them blatant lies about using protectionism to bring back their well paid low-skilled jobs that cannot be brought back.
If they let themselves believe such nonsense, it was only because his socially right-wing, racist, sexist rhetoric struck a chord with them, just as such rhetoric is gaining appeal throughout Europe with school children in Rome standing on their desks and saluting Hitler and Mein Kampf becoming among the top 10 most popular books read in Italy.

The Dems not being authentically left-wing enough in their economic policy doesn't explain the increasing appeal of dangerously right-wing rhetoric in the US or anywhere else, especially countries with economic policies far to the left of the US but with a similar rise in right-wing extremism.

I think the author is onto something. There is a portion of people, mostly males, who regardless of cultural influence want a more aggressive world where they are free to be cruel and hateful than modern sensibilities will allow. They are inherently drawn towards non-egalitarian views and bigotry, and toward simplistic non-relativistic morality and mono-culturalism.

I think at least 4 factors that are on the rise contribute to their increasing willingness to openly embrace such rhetoric are:
1) Increasing immigration, particular of people of other "races" and cultures which inherently destabilizes the simple norms they prefer and threatens the believed rightful dominance of their group. It doesn't help when the immigrants themselves embrace a hateful bigoted close-minded worldview like Islam. Despite these rightists being racist and sexist themselves, the cultural racism and sexism of Islam adds to their ability to rationalize their hatred of the immigrants.
2) Legitimate progress in liberal egalitarian ethics that push these people more and more to the margins
3) Illegitimate, unreasoned, and unfair leftist rhetoric and policies that give them an excuse to reject liberalism as a whole.
4) The interwebs :) Despite the emoji, I am serious about that one. These people have been an increasing marginalized minority whose views have not been allowed as part of polite public discourse. This has kept them quiet and disorganized. Online communities mean they can have a "safe-space" in which to develop, entrench, and intensify their views without real critique and to hear all others anywhere in the world with similar views, giving them more and more confidence to begin voicing and voting these views in public. It speaks to the inherent dangers of such intellectual "safe-spaces" in that they breed irrationality because honest and fair critique is not allowed.

There is nothing that can or should be done about numbers 2 and 4. However, liberals can and should do something about numbers 1 and 3. #1 doesn't require stopping immigration, just stopping the irrational denial that the pre-Enlightenment culture so many of the immigrants are bringing with them pose no danger to the modern secular culture into which they are coming. Such denials and bullshit arguments that such observations are "racist" only serve to allow actual racists and rightists to be the only ones acknowledging those realities, which gives legitimacy to their actual racist and unreasonable views and policies on immigrants. If reasonable acknowledgment of the problems posed by these immigrants was part of liberal rhetoric that still embraced the humanitarian concerns of their plight, then rightist would not be able to own that issue and could only stand on their real racist and xenophobic anti-immigrant views.

Fighting #3 requires something similar but applies to all issues and not just immigration. It requires actual liberals taking pseudo-liberal leftists and marxists to task when their views, arguments, evidence, or policies are irrational or against principles of fairness and decency toward individual persons and myopically focused upon heavy handed forcing of group level equality of outcomes.
 
Note that this was written before Trump getting elected, but still just as relevant:

Donald Trump may get the nuclear suitcase, a cranky “park bench” socialist took Hillary Clinton to the wire, many countries are becoming less free, and the neo-Nazi party came very close to assuming power in Austria. I could list more such events.

Haven’t you, like I, wondered what is up? What the hell is going on?

I don’t know, but let me tell you my (highly uncertain) default hypothesis. I don’t see decisive evidence for it, but it is a kind of “first blast” attempt to fit the basic facts while remaining within the realm of reason.

The contemporary world is not very well built for a large chunk of males. The nature of current service jobs, coddled class time and homework-intensive schooling, a feminized culture allergic to most forms of violence, post-feminist gender relations, and egalitarian semi-cosmopolitanism just don’t sit well with many…what shall I call them? Brutes?

Quite simply, there are many people who don’t like it when the world becomes nicer. They do less well with nice. And they respond by in turn behaving less nicely, if only in their voting behavior and perhaps their internet harassment as well.

Female median wages have been rising pretty consistently, but the male median wage, at least as measured, was higher back in 1969 than it is today (admittedly the deflator probably is off, but even that such a measure is possible speaks volumes). A lot of men did better psychologically and maybe also economically in a world where America had a greater number of tough manufacturing jobs. They thrived under brutish conditions, including a military draft to crack some of their heads into line.

To borrow a phrasing from Peter Thiel, perhaps men did better in the age of “technological progress without globalization” rather than “globalization without technological progress,” as has been the case as of late.

Here’s a line from Martin Wolf:

Princeton professors Anne Case and Angus Deaton note, in addition, a sharp relative deterioration in mortality and morbidity among middle-aged white American men, due to suicide, and drug and alcohol abuse.

(Addendum: note this correction.)

For American men ages 18-34, more of them live with their parents than with romantic partners.

Trump’s support is overwhelming male, his modes are extremely male, no one talks about the “Bernie sisters,” and male voters also supported the Austrian neo-Nazi party by a clear majority. Aren’t (some) men the basic problem here? And if you think, as I do, that the incidence of rape is fairly high, perhaps this shouldn’t surprise you.

The sad news is that making the world nicer yet won’t necessarily solve this problem. It might even make it worse.

Again, we don’t know this is true. But it does help explain that men seem to be leading this “populist” charge, and that these bizarre reactions are occurring across a number of countries, not just one or two. It also avoids the weaknesses of purely economic explanations, because right now the labor market in America just isn’t that terrible. Nor did the bad economic times of the late 1970s occasion a similar counter-reaction.

One response would be to double down on feminizing the men, as arguably some of the Nordic countries have done. But America may be too big and diverse for that really to stick. Another option would be to bring back some of the older, more masculine world in a relatively harmless manner, the proverbial sop to Cerberus. But how to do that? That world went away for some good reasons.

If this is indeed the problem, our culture is remarkably ill-suited to talking about it. It is hard for us to admit that “all good things” can be bad for anyone, including brutes. It is hard to talk about what we might have to do to accommodate brutes, and that more niceness isn’t always a cure. And it is hard to admit that history might not be so progressive after all.

What percentage of men are brutes anyway? Let’s hope we don’t find out.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/05/what-in-the-hell-is-going-on.html

I would also add that the immigrant backlash arrising in part from Islamic terrorism has something to do with the rise and appeal off these kind of right wing parties.

Thank you Axulus for spilling your guts to us and telling us of your deepest and most anxious fears. I now know you have some sort of castration complex combined with perhaps cortesol addiction. It's a bad combo, Axulus. It gets you creepy orange haired presidents who grope women and want nuclear weapons races and equally creepy Senate and House leaders who are determined to identify the U.S. with masculinity, even if it kills a portion of our poorer citizens.;)
 
So,

I think that this point:

1) Increasing immigration, particular of people of other "races" and cultures which inherently destabilizes the simple norms they prefer and threatens the believed rightful dominance of their group. It doesn't help when the immigrants themselves embrace a hateful bigoted close-minded worldview like Islam. Despite these rightists being racist and sexist themselves, the cultural racism and sexism of Islam adds to their ability to rationalize their hatred of the immigrants.

This is a quandary, but you are ignoring that in addition to people walking over to Europe some of them are literally shipped over as well. Also, there is a welfare state now that never existed before.

There is a drawing I saw a while ago that is somewhat of an exaggeration, but no more so than lefty understatements of the same issue.

443680_118.jpg

On the other hand...

white-genocide-is-real-the-white-aryan-race-is-clearly-3320566.png
 
I think it would be funny if there was an exodus of vastly white southern bible bangers of a particular sect (like a virulent branch of Pentecostalism) to Portland, Oregon on the order of 20k people. They could be very traditional in their gender roles. It would piss off the Portlanders, I think.

Looking at it from impartial point of view, it would not be much different from muslims except the language barrier.
 
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