What is Anarcho-socialism?

[Loren Pechtel]

Wages are paid as an operating expense. They are sometimes paid out of equity. Owners are generally paid from profits. Most companies do not generate a profit. Or the profit is intermittent. (It's my hope that if I repeat the same post to you over and over is that at some point: it will stick!!)

None of this addresses my point.

Unless you are talking about magic money.

Because money is money and when a lot of deadwood, like so-called upper management is eliminated, along with a lot of middle management that is redundant, there is more for most.

Capitalists structures must ensure that money flows to the top. They waste a lot of energy and employ a lot of people to see that it does.

Basically all a capitalist business is is a scheme to take the fruits of labor and transfer them to ownership. The rest is immaterial.

We aren't talking about magic money, you are talking about a magic system.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They have to since the biggest part of a corporation are the structures to transfer the wealth created by workers upward. That is really their only reason for being.

Somebody has to manage this.

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

I've seen deadwood managers. Notably, the companies no longer exist.

Beyond that, though, there are deadwood managers around--you'll find plenty in government.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

If you believe in the conspiracy it does not seem so conspiratorial to you. When you go to the casino, you accept transfers of wealth that have no actual justification and no real exchange of value. It is an OPEN CONSPIRACY that society is taught to believe in...in fact there is a degree devoted to it....the MBA.

So you admit you're a conspiracy theorist.

May I recommend a tinfoil hat?

 

[untermensche]

They have to since the biggest part of a corporation are the structures to transfer the wealth created by workers upward. That is really their only reason for being.

Somebody has to manage this.

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

That's funny.

A corporation works to funnel money to the top. To stock holders and top executives.

That is what they do.

Call it a conspiracy, call it Swiss cheese. That is what they do and why they exist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not a conspiracy, it's just the most efficient way to organize a group of a significant size.

A number of years ago, I was the the Utilities Supervisor on a U.S.Marine Base. The base had a population of around 10,000. It had on base housing and a maintenance department to keep up the properties. I was there about two years when we received a new Facilities Maintenance Officer with a fresh new MBA. He ran around there and cut the civil service staff and started trying to buy piecemeal the same services in town for his facilities. Lucky for him he did not cut our department....water, sewage, and electrical distribution. He felt he had to decrease the personnel maintaining his equipment without regard for the fact that his expenses rose and the services provided by his patchwork contracts were inferior to those that had been in place when he arrived. MBAism is clearly a disease and based on the notion that brilliant graduates with these sacred certificates can work miracles by merely tampering with things that are not broken.

1) Note that you are not in the corporate world.

2) There might be another factor here: Perhaps he was directed to reduce the number of employees to make things look good to the voters.

 

[untermensche]

None of this addresses my point.

Unless you are talking about magic money.

Because money is money and when a lot of deadwood, like so-called upper management is eliminated, along with a lot of middle management that is redundant, there is more for most.

Capitalists structures must ensure that money flows to the top. They waste a lot of energy and employ a lot of people to see that it does.

Basically all a capitalist business is is a scheme to take the fruits of labor and transfer them to ownership. The rest is immaterial.

We aren't talking about magic money, you are talking about a magic system.

A magic system that worked just fine in Spain for millions.

 

[arkirk]

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

I've seen deadwood managers. Notably, the companies no longer exist.

Beyond that, though, there are deadwood managers around--you'll find plenty in government.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

If you believe in the conspiracy it does not seem so conspiratorial to you. When you go to the casino, you accept transfers of wealth that have no actual justification and no real exchange of value. It is an OPEN CONSPIRACY that society is taught to believe in...in fact there is a degree devoted to it....the MBA.

So you admit you're a conspiracy theorist.

May I recommend a tinfoil hat?

I am talking about an open conspiracy where everybody knows the rules and how it works but they are still too habituated to change their ways. It has another name...addiction. This is not something that happens in a back room with shadowy people smoking cuban cigars. This is really up front like the lottery. The problem is when EVERYTHING TURNS OUT TO BE A LOTTERY.

I feel it is you who are wearing the tin foil hat running from inhumane outcome to inhumane outcome and calling for more. You constantly advocate the misdirection of human efforts in favor of the military industrial complex.....oh, I forgot...that is a BRASS HAT...possibly with a tin foil liner. Remember to fasten your chin strap.

When a realtor tells you "There are lots of people who do not deserve homes and we need to face it...they are not going to have homes." That is the type of open conspiracy I am talking about. There are no backroom planners...hell no! They do their social planning out in the open. It does not make what they do any less heinous or any less dishonest. If Loren chooses to keep his tinfoil had, I can't do anything about that, but he should not recommend one for anybody else....least of all me.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Again, do you have evidence for you conspiracy? I've owned two companies, been a worker, mid-level manager, and high-level manager. I know many many managers. I have an MBA. I read a different business book every week. And I have never heard of the conspiracy that you describe. Please help me see the truth! I need evidence....

That's funny.

A corporation works to funnel money to the top. To stock holders and top executives.

That is what they do.

Call it a conspiracy, call it Swiss cheese. That is what they do and why they exist.

It's goal is to return money to the shareholders, but not funnel money to the top. That's not its goal. However without the stock holders, we wouldn't have large organizations, most would stay under 50 people and there wouldn't be much advancement.

 

[untermensche]

That's funny.

A corporation works to funnel money to the top. To stock holders and top executives.

That is what they do.

Call it a conspiracy, call it Swiss cheese. That is what they do and why they exist.

It's goal is to return money to the shareholders, but not funnel money to the top. That's not its goal. However without the stock holders, we wouldn't have large organizations, most would stay under 50 people and there wouldn't be much advancement.

The goal is to maximize shareholder return.

And minus the rhetoric it amounts to funneling money to the top.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It's goal is to return money to the shareholders, but not funnel money to the top. That's not its goal. However without the stock holders, we wouldn't have large organizations, most would stay under 50 people and there wouldn't be much advancement.

The goal is to maximize shareholder return.

And minus the rhetoric it amounts to funneling money to the top.

You mean if somebody gives you money they actually want their money back plus a payment for allowing them to have that money in the first place, what a novel concept.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It's goal is to return money to the shareholders, but not funnel money to the top. That's not its goal. However without the stock holders, we wouldn't have large organizations, most would stay under 50 people and there wouldn't be much advancement.

The goal is to maximize shareholder return.

And minus the rhetoric it amounts to funneling money to the top.

Okay. And when you start an worker-controlled company, you'll want to maximize the return to the owners (who are the workers)!

 

[Harry Bosch]

I consider somebody who actually wants to be a tool of another as a damaged individual. Damaged by the system they were born in.

The problem is you want the benefits of ownership without the risks.

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The problem is you want the benefits of ownership without the risks.

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

I wonder how many start out with that belief and then change their mind when they put all their money and time on the line and they can't find people with the same belief in the company?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

I wonder how many start out with that belief and then change their mind when they put all their money and time on the line and they can't find people with the same belief in the company?

Mike: I think that there are a lot of people out there who believe that it's pretty easy to run a business. Anyone can do it. All businesses live forever. And all owners are conspiring to pay workers as little as possible!

 

[Kharakov]

The problem is you want the benefits of ownership without the risks.

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

It's easy to start a company if you're connected to the social power structure. Certain people are connected and their efforts succeed, while other people's equal efforts do not, even when they do comparable work.

You're not "putting it on the line" if you're connected to the social power structure.

Not everyone knows about what goes on behind the scenes- a poor person could be raised up (succeed at starting a business on "your own") because they are being used to demoralize workers into keeping their low paying jobs.

The thing is, those on top only need a few plants among the workers to stay on top of any possible insurrection or action against them. Can't plan on killing every rich fucker without them finding out... there is always a poor fool who talks. Or is there?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

It's easy to start a company if you're connected to the social power structure. Certain people are connected and their efforts succeed, while other people's equal efforts do not, even when they do comparable work.

You're not "putting it on the line" if you're connected to the social power structure.

Not everyone knows about what goes on behind the scenes- a poor person could be raised up (succeed at starting a business on "your own") because they are being used to demoralize workers into keeping their low paying jobs.

The thing is, those on top only need a few plants among the workers to stay on top of any possible insurrection or action against them. Can't plan on killing every rich fucker without them finding out... there is always a poor fool who talks. Or is there?

Ah shit! You caught me! Yes, I'm part of the social power structure. I was born on a reservation that had 90% unemployment. The damn "rich fuckers" always seek people like me out! First they gave us small pox blankets, then fire water, then seats on boards. Those basterds!!

 

[untermensche]

The problem is you want the benefits of ownership without the risks.

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

It is difficult to start a top-down company that is trying to steal the fruits of labor from most workers.

Yes, it is difficult to scheme like this and carry it out.

But it doesn't take much courage. Mostly it takes a lot of greed and a disregard for workers.

 

[Terrell]

For the average person, what are their rights & responsibilities under such a system?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yep, this is the primary issue! I've never met an anarchist who has ever had the courage to start their own company. It's extremely difficult to start and control a company. You have to be willing to work long hours and put everything on the line.

It is difficult to start a top-down company that is trying to steal the fruits of labor from most workers.

Yes, it is difficult to scheme like this and carry it out.

But it doesn't take much courage. Mostly it takes a lot of greed and a disregard for workers.

Soooo, why note start an owner controlled company? I know a couple attorney's who could help you. They help a couple startups a week.

 

[Kharakov]

Ah shit! You caught me! Yes, I'm part of the social power structure. I was born on a reservation that had 90% unemployment. The damn "rich fuckers" always seek people like me out! First they gave us small pox blankets, then fire water, then seats on boards. Those basterds!!

Yup. Success stories, even when you're artificially propped up through various means (even if you're not aware that that government grant that increased expenditures was done to create a success story), serve to demoralize the poor who did not succeed at similar endeavors.

Demoralization keeps the poor in line. Usage of ownership of capital to gain wealth from the poor is similar in character to strong arm robbery, but it is not met with the same anger. Why? Because the situation is defused.

It's a tactic- raise up someone in a group in order to oppress and demoralize the rest. It's more long term, aimed at keeping lower hierarchy group members demoralized so they don't purposefully harm upper echelon members.

 

[skepticalbip]

It is difficult to start a top-down company that is trying to steal the fruits of labor from most workers.

Yes, it is difficult to scheme like this and carry it out.

But it doesn't take much courage. Mostly it takes a lot of greed and a disregard for workers.

Soooo, why note start an owner controlled company? I know a couple attorney's who could help you. They help a couple startups a week.

untermensche doesn't think anyone should need to start a company to benefit from all the 80 hour weeks for five or ten years plus life savings invested by the founder to get the business on its feet. His idea is to wait for the business to be making a nice profit then join the company as a full partner without contributing anything more than showing up.