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What is democracy?

untermensche

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There are some Americans who somehow proudly say: "The US is not a democracy". As if that is a good thing.

All I can do is give my opinion and no person will ever be the final word on this topic.

My view is you can either have a bottom up system where the will of the people is supreme or a top down system where the will of some powerful minority at the top is supreme.

To me it is about where power and decision making actually resides.

If power resides in the general population then you have democracy.

If power resides in some minority then that is just a form of dictatorship.

The question is: What kind of mechanisms can we create to allow the will of the general public to be supreme?

Voting is part of this but voting in a bottom up system is the end result after many many things have occurred first. If all you have is voting then you do not have democracy.

So IMO democracy is an unending task to make the mechanisms for bottom up control better and better.

And in my definition of democracy elected representatives are servants not the masters they are in the present US system.
 
Democracy is related to power, but power isn't the only component of the kind of bottom-up structure you are envisioning.

The way I see it, power is about who makes the rules, who enforces them, and who resolves disputes about them. That power can reside in one group or another, in a majority or a minority, in dictators or representatives. But in practice, a majority having power is not the only component of democracy.

In addition to the rules and how they work, there is the entirely separate issue of what gets decided, what is the purview of the rules that are made, and that has everything to do with class rather than power.

For my part, I feel like a major failure of the representative system of democracy most countries have is that political officers are specialized roles who have no other social function. No matter how democratically the process of choosing representatives may be, the moment they are installed they occupy a different orbit than the people who elected them. The same is true of unelected social servants like police officers, which is why they are not your friends.

So, in addition to making more decisions comprehensively democratic from the bottom up when that's warranted (and the majority should be able to control how its being warranted is determined), it's equally important not to create class divisions based on social roles. All government jobs should be part-time, and the rest of the time those people should be working in the same places as everybody else, perhaps until they are recalled or rotated out for someone else who will do the same. Terms should be short enough to prevent entrenched interests from forming. That way, the person who we select to represent us would have the same class interests as us, the same incentives not to say one thing and do another, because he or she would also be on the receiving end of whatever policies are advanced.

I honestly think this is the only way representative democracy can function without becoming corrupted or diluted into direct democracy, which is untenable in practice beyond a certain scale.
 
The way I see it, power is about who makes the rules, who enforces them, and who resolves disputes about them. That power can reside in one group or another, in a majority or a minority, in dictators or representatives. But in practice, a majority having power is not the only component of democracy.

In a dictatorship the minority that has somehow assumed power make the rules without any concern for the people. They do what THEY want.

If elected representatives do the same you have not moved from dictatorship. You have merely created a different kind of dictatorship. One where the dictators are elected.

For there to be a democracy there has to be something that distinguishes it from a dictatorship. Electing dictators is not a distinction.

And really it is not about what the majority wants.

It is all about what humans living in the modern world need.

The government needs all kinds of things to exercise it's power. It needs the police and the courts and the prisons. It needs to tax.

When the government needs something it gets it.

But somehow when the people need health insurance they don't get it from government after government.

That is a broken system that should be scrapped.

In addition to the rules and how they work, there is the entirely separate issue of what gets decided, what is the purview of the rules that are made, and that has everything to do with class rather than power.

The first question is: What is needed by everyone?

Then: What could reasonably be provided to those lacking what they need?

And class exists in part because of dictatorial structures in the workplace. That is how a few make a lot and most not much.

To have a functioning democracy requires democracy in the workplace.

For my part, I feel like a major failure of the representative system of democracy most countries have is that political officers are specialized roles who have no other social function. No matter how democratically the process of choosing representatives may be, the moment they are installed they occupy a different orbit than the people who elected them. The same is true of unelected social servants like police officers, which is why they are not your friends.

If the representatives are agents trying to find ways to supply the things that everybody needs then they perform an essential function.

When they are elected dictators they are less essential to the democracy.

So, in addition to making more decisions comprehensively democratic from the bottom up when that's warranted (and the majority should be able to control how its being warranted is determined), it's equally important not to create class divisions based on social roles. All government jobs should be part-time, and the rest of the time those people should be working in the same places as everybody else, perhaps until they are recalled or rotated out for someone else who will do the same. Terms should be short enough to prevent entrenched interests from forming. That way, the person who we select to represent us would have the same class interests as us, the same incentives not to say one thing and do another, because he or she would also be on the receiving end of whatever policies are advanced.

When talk is shifted from needs to mere decisions then things get murky.

Government's only function is to look after the needs of all.

That is all elected representatives need to be doing.
 
Unless the end result is known then democracy by itself is not much use.

For example the USSR had those marvellous elections where the winner got 99.2% of the vote. Democracy is action or just a pliable tool for control?

Where as in the west it is (more) likely that a free vote can be guaranteed and it will have some value. But again for what purpose or end?

Democracy is a good tool to get us to and end but it is not an end in itself. Having democracy does not ensure that the populace will be happy or looked after.
 
untermensche left out a few things in his definition of "democracy" to make it more palatable in this thread.

He believes dictatorship of the majority is impossible. There is no way in his world the majority would ever vote to harm the minority.

When pressed he usually falls back on their being a constitution (written by slave owners to protect slave owners by the way) to prevent the majority from voting on certain topics.

He has also stated that anything that interferes with the majority expressing its will is dictatorship. Saying "you aren't allowed to vote on that topic" is an impediment to the will of the majority.

He doesn't say you can't be religious, but insists that using your religious beliefs to guide your vote is a corruption of democracy so people need to be taught how to vote correctly.

One more thing, he insists that socialism and democracy must go hand in hand and you can't have one without the other, but strangely didn't put that in this thread.
 
Unless the end result is known then democracy by itself is not much use.

For example the USSR had those marvellous elections where the winner got 99.2% of the vote. Democracy is action or just a pliable tool for control?

Where as in the west it is (more) likely that a free vote can be guaranteed and it will have some value. But again for what purpose or end?

Democracy is a good tool to get us to and end but it is not an end in itself. Having democracy does not ensure that the populace will be happy or looked after.

I agree that it's not sufficient, but it is certainly necessary and certainly an end in itself (though not the only end worth pursuing). The important factor here is that democracy is more than a periodic vote. It's everything behind that vote, informing it through cultural norms and educational institutions, that contributes to the will of the people being a worthy guide for policy. In this way, the solution to a majority that has become 'tyrannical' is not to replace their authority with that of a minority, but to address whatever failure of culture/education created their tyrannical impulse. One way to do this is by elevating class consciousness in the people, which tends to transform bigotries focused around race, sex, and religion into recognition of the systems that oppress them all by pitting them against one another.
 
The founders did not want direct federal democracy, they new it would be chaos. POTUS was to be selected by electors who were landholders, those who had a stake in the state,.

Power structures, who makes decisions well no shit. Families have power structures and factions. Social peer groups. Unions. Religion. Hollywood. There is always politics.

Communism socialism, democracy, anarchism, libertarianism and all the other isms, power hierarchical structures will always form. The question is not that it will happen, the question is how to achieve a balance of power that minimizes abuse of power and chance for tyranny.

The American solution was three coequal branches of govt. POTUS veto power which can be over ridden by enough votes.

Regardless of yjr =ism the problem who makes decisions and how they are enforced. On the scale of the USA representative democracy is the practical solution. It would never work in China at the national level.

To restate yet gain, we are a democratic republic not a democracy where public majority vote rules on all issues.

Our economy is primarily run by supply and demand which generally sets wages and prices. There is no economic central planning and decisionmaking. We get what the majority of the people want to buy.


The critical requirement of a democracy is an educated citizenry and active participation in politics. We vote based on limited knowledge and go back to work and play complaining if we di not like something. For example climate change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "Rule by 'People'") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting. In a direct democracy, the citizens as a whole form a governing body and vote directly on each issue. In a representative democracy the citizens elect representatives from among themselves. These representatives meet to form a governing body, such as a legislature. In a constitutional democracy the powers of the majority are exercised within the framework of a representative democracy, but the constitution limits the majority and protects the minority, usually through the enjoyment by all of certain individual rights, e.g. freedom of speech, or freedom of association.[1][2] "Rule of the majority" is sometimes referred to as democracy.[3] Democracy is a system of processing conflicts in which outcomes depend on what participants do, but no single force controls what occurs and its outcomes.

The uncertainty of outcomes is inherent in democracy, which makes all forces struggle repeatedly for the realization of their interests, being the devolution of power from a group of people to a set of rules.[4] Western democracy, as distinct from that which existed in pre-modern societies, is generally considered to have originated in city-states such as Classical Athens and the Roman Republic, where various schemes and degrees of enfranchisement of the free male population were observed before the form disappeared in the West at the beginning of late antiquity. The English word dates back to the 16th century, from the older Middle French and Middle Latin equivalents.

According to American political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: a political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; protection of the human rights of all citizens; a rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.[5] Todd Landman, nevertheless, draws our attention to the fact that democracy and human rights are two different concepts and that "there must be greater specificity in the conceptualisation and operationalization of democracy and human rights".[6]

The term appeared in the 5th century BC to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens, to mean "rule of the people", in contrast to aristocracy (ἀριστοκρατία, aristokratía), meaning "rule of an elite". While theoretically these definitions are in opposition, in practice the distinction has been blurred historically.[7] The political system of Classical Athens, for example, granted democratic citizenship to free men and excluded slaves and women from political participation. In virtually all democratic governments throughout ancient and modern history, democratic citizenship consisted of an elite class, until full enfranchisement was won for all adult citizens in most modern democracies through the suffrage movements of the 19th and 20th centuries.

Democracy contrasts with forms of government where power is either held by an individual, as in an absolute monarchy, or where power is held by a small number of individuals, as in an oligarchy. Nevertheless, these oppositions, inherited from Greek philosophy,[8] are now ambiguous because contemporary governments have mixed democratic, oligarchic and monarchic elements. Karl Popper defined democracy in contrast to dictatorship or tyranny, thus focusing on opportunities for the people to control their leaders and to oust them without the need for a revolution.[9]
 
For added clarity, the US is a democracy. It is also a republic . It is both. Being one doesn’t negate also being the other.

The US is also a Democratic Republic. So, all three questions: 1) is the US a democracy?, 2) is the US a republic?, and 3) is the US a Democratic Republic? yield the same “yes” answer. Further discussion here will not alter those foundational facts regarding the form of the US government.

For instance, do US citizens vote on all issue? No. That doesn’t mean the US isn’t a true democracy. It means the US isn’t a direct democracy. Again, being a republic doesn’t in any way suggest that it is false that the US is a democracy.

Steve Bank said:
To restate yet again, we are a democratic republic not a democracy where public majority vote rules on all issues.
The words “not a democracy” is there, but he’s not saying (or at least I hope he’s not saying) the US is not a democracy. He is qualifying his statement. For instance, if I say my vehicle is not a truck that flies in the air, I’m not denying that my vehicle is a truck; I’m just denying that it’s one that flies in the air.

Unfortunately, there is room for question. If I have a car and say it’s not a truck that flies in the air, I’m still right, but I don’t think he’s just refraining from denying we’re a democracy of any kind; after all, he provides a link that speaks of representative democracy. And that too, we are.
 
For added clarity, the US is a democracy. It is also a republic . It is both. Being one doesn’t negate also being the other.

The US is also a Democratic Republic. So, all three questions: 1) is the US a democracy?, 2) is the US a republic?, and 3) is the US a Democratic Republic? yield the same “yes” answer. Further discussion here will not alter those foundational facts regarding the form of the US government.

For instance, do US citizens vote on all issue? No. That doesn’t mean the US isn’t a true democracy. It means the US isn’t a direct democracy. Again, being a republic doesn’t in any way suggest that it is false that the US is a democracy.

Steve Bank said:
To restate yet again, we are a democratic republic not a democracy where public majority vote rules on all issues.
The words “not a democracy” is there, but he’s not saying (or at least I hope he’s not saying) the US is not a democracy. He is qualifying his statement. For instance, if I say my vehicle is not a truck that flies in the air, I’m not denying that my vehicle is a truck; I’m just denying that it’s one that flies in the air.

Unfortunately, there is room for question. If I have a car and say it’s not a truck that flies in the air, I’m still right, but I don’t think he’s just refraining from denying we’re a democracy of any kind; after all, he provides a link that speaks of representative democracy. And that too, we are.

Direct democracy as in ancient Greece and a democratic republic are different things. Both have positives and negatives.

We at the national level are actually more a soft plutocracy than democracy. I belive the same can be said of ancient Athens. Not everyone voted and power went to the wealthy.

The state level systems tend to work well as a democracy form stw to local govt.

In many states including here in Washington there is an effective referendum system to get issues people want on the ballot. Ballot measures go by majority vote. That is direct democracy.
 
untermensche left out a few things in his definition of "democracy" to make it more palatable in this thread.

He believes dictatorship of the majority is impossible. There is no way in his world the majority would ever vote to harm the minority.

When pressed he usually falls back on their being a constitution (written by slave owners to protect slave owners by the way) to prevent the majority from voting on certain topics.

He has also stated that anything that interferes with the majority expressing its will is dictatorship. Saying "you aren't allowed to vote on that topic" is an impediment to the will of the majority.

He doesn't say you can't be religious, but insists that using your religious beliefs to guide your vote is a corruption of democracy so people need to be taught how to vote correctly.

One more thing, he insists that socialism and democracy must go hand in hand and you can't have one without the other, but strangely didn't put that in this thread.

The one other thing missing is his faith that people will vote the way he wants.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...public-or-a-democracy/?utm_term=.7cf882cd6b30

You have once again opened up the door of doubt by qualifying your statement with terminology about the national level. I’m outright saying that the label “democracy” applies to the form of government of some countries and that the United States of America is one among them. You skirt that sentiment.

A plutocracy? Are you kidding me?
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...public-or-a-democracy/?utm_term=.7cf882cd6b30

You have once again opened up the door of doubt by qualifying your statement with terminology about the national level. I’m outright saying that the label “democracy” applies to the form of government of some countries and that the United States of America is one among them. You skirt that sentiment.

A plutocracy? Are you kidding me?

We have always beeb a form iof plutactacy.

Msjor decisions on where to put ca;otal and what direction the economy goes is made by major business. The most influential force on the economy over the last 40 years has been Microsoft.

Wile the government may be onerous in some areas, the economy is run by major business. They have political influence.

When you includebsecondary and tertiary marjets big auto is a major part of the economy. Under Obama if big auto collapsed it would have ripplerd thrpugh the ecomomy/

Democracy has different sub definitions. We used democracy in general to distinguish between us and autoterian and dictatorship systms. Cuba, NK, China, Russia, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia. Any system that has free elections we call democracy.

When you talk specifics we are a democratic republic not a direct democracy where everybody votes on everything.

The founders intended POTUS to be selected by business and land owners to avoid national chaos like we see today. Up until Jackson there was little in the way of POTUS public campaigns. It was all back room negotiations among the plutocracy.


American plutocracy
Military Industrial Complex
Though not often quoted in his speech Eisenhower also mention the science govt complex.
Oil
Big auto
Finance

At this point anyone who thinks we have 'democracy' is not paying attention. Who gets elected POTUS matters in a broad sense as with Trump, but people have little national influence. We gave a democratic process that over time changes govt policies.

Simply saying democracy has no meaning without understanding how the system functions.

The conservatives have a good point in one example. Regardless of left or right in the White house policies enacted by unelected appointees in govt agencies make polices, rules, and regulations without any public review or congressional oversight. Education, agriculture, energy, and environment.



At the state level people do have influence.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

In modern times, the term is sometimes used pejoratively to refer to societies rooted in state-corporate capitalism or which prioritize the accumulation of wealth over other interests.[27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][excessive citations] According to Kevin Phillips, author and political strategist to Richard Nixon, the United States is a plutocracy in which there is a "fusion of money and government."[36]
 
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