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What is proper resistance?

I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance. If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.

Also, "heroism" has nothing to do with whether an act of violence is legitimate resistance or not. In words of Mahatma Gandhi:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
 
Proper resistance is resistance that accomplishes the political goals. It's a waste of time to analyse the morality of any particular act, any more than discussing the morality of bombing civilian populations during a war.

What's the point? Are we supposed to say Palestinians are bad, because some Palestinians killed children? How many Palestinian children have died since the 1948 War? Who killed them? Can anyone defend that?

When violence is used as a tool in political disputes, people die. There is no point in arguing whether such a thing is evil. Words like evil and right, or legitimate, do not apply. They have no use in the discussion. If anyone has a problem with children dying for political goals, they should work on peaceful ways to settle disputes, instead of moaning about the inevitable results of violence.
 
I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance.
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP (splitters!) and parts of Fatah view all Israel as "occupied territory".
If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.
You think it is justified to target civilians, even children, if they are located in a territory that is disputed.
The 1949 armistice line is just that, an armistice line. There is nothing sacrosanct about that line and the final status of disputed territories should be determined by negotiations, not terrorism.
 
Proper resistance is resistance that accomplishes the political goals.
Palestinians have been engaging in terrorism for decades. They do not have much to show for it, except the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, which begat more terrorism resulting in three military campaigns (2008, 2012 and 2014, are we due for another one?) and an ongoing success. Time to rethink that strategy I think.

What's the point? Are we supposed to say Palestinians are bad, because some Palestinians killed children?
It's not just that some Palestinians killed children, it's that these Palestinian terrorists are being glorified by the supposedly moderate Palestinian Authority. Did you read the article?
Abbas says one thing to the West, and the opposite to the Palestinians. Arafat in his day did the same.
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How many Palestinian children have died since the 1948 War? Who killed them? Can anyone defend that?
There is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and children and inadvertent casualties. Also, you have to be careful when looking at the numbers. If you define a child as anybody under 18, you will include a lot of combatants in the count.

When violence is used as a tool in political disputes, people die. There is no point in arguing whether such a thing is evil. Words like evil and right, or legitimate, do not apply. They have no use in the discussion. If anyone has a problem with children dying for political goals, they should work on peaceful ways to settle disputes, instead of moaning about the inevitable results of violence.
The civilized world has come up with rules that govern conduct in armed conflicts. Why should Palestinians get a pass when they behave in uncivilized way?
In these discussions there are two standards - one for Palestinians, and a much stricter one for Israel. You can see from this rush to excuse both murdering (murder implies a deliberate act) of children and the subsequent glorification of that atrocity by those who pretend to be "partners for peace".
 
It's not just that some Palestinians killed children, it's that these Palestinian terrorists are being glorified by the supposedly moderate Palestinian Authority. Did you read the article?
Abbas says one thing to the West, and the opposite to the Palestinians. Arafat in his day did the same.
CwQkv1LWYAEr2Ol.jpg


How many Palestinian children have died since the 1948 War? Who killed them? Can anyone defend that?
There is a difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and children and inadvertent casualties. Also, you have to be careful when looking at the numbers. If you define a child as anybody under 18, you will include a lot of combatants in the count.

When violence is used as a tool in political disputes, people die. There is no point in arguing whether such a thing is evil. Words like evil and right, or legitimate, do not apply. They have no use in the discussion. If anyone has a problem with children dying for political goals, they should work on peaceful ways to settle disputes, instead of moaning about the inevitable results of violence.
The civilized world has come up with rules that govern conduct in armed conflicts. Why should Palestinians get a pass when they behave in uncivilized way?
In these discussions there are two standards - one for Palestinians, and a much stricter one for Israel. You can see from this rush to excuse both murdering (murder implies a deliberate act) of children and the subsequent glorification of that atrocity by those who pretend to be "partners for peace".

A big difference? What's the difference between a shell fired from a tank, a missile from a jet, or a suicide bomber on a bus. I'll make it easy for you, after the first three kill a civilian, somebody says "Oops" and goes on to the next target.

There are no rules in war. Rules in armed conflicts are a fantasy, concocted to soothe the consciences of people.

Here's a serious question for you. What would you do if your hometown were invaded and occupied by a foreign power that revoked legal rights and property rights for the civilian population. What this means in plain English is, they could kick you out of your house and you have no legal recourse. If you make too much trouble, they'll shoot you and anyone near you. Your move.
 
There is only effective and ineffective resistance.

But in the face of the decades of oppression and massive violence committed against them, the Palestinians do have a right to resist.

Violent resistance is exactly what oppressors like Israel want however. Israel squashes and disrupts non-violent protest and makes it is extremely difficult. By not allowing a peaceful alternatives for effective protest Israel in effect forces what it wants most, a violent response to its oppression so it can both justify the oppression and increase it.

The Palestinians are in a tough situation. Getting crushed by an evil force much more powerful with absolutely no way to end the oppression. Israel wants these people gone. It doesn't want them happy in any way.
 
There is only effective and ineffective resistance.

But in the face of the decades of oppression and massive violence committed against them, the Palestinians do have a right to resist.

Violent resistance is exactly what oppressors like Israel want however. Israel squashes and disrupts non-violent protest and makes it is extremely difficult. By not allowing a peaceful alternatives for effective protest Israel in effect forces what it wants most, a violent response to its oppression so it can both justify the oppression and increase it.

The Palestinians are in a tough situation. Getting crushed by an evil force much more powerful with absolutely no way to end the oppression. Israel wants these people gone. It doesn't want them happy in any way.

This basically the story. The only time it gets complicated is when feelgoodniks get a glimmer of what's really happening and blame all the trouble on the people who lost the war, because they can't deal with the idea that we aren't the good guys.
 
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP (splitters!) and parts of Fatah view all Israel as "occupied territory".
I'm not member of any of those groups and I see no reason to subscribe to their delusions.

If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.
You think it is justified to target civilians, even children, if they are located in a territory that is disputed.
The 1949 armistice line is just that, an armistice line. There is nothing sacrosanct about that line and the final status of disputed territories should be determined by negotiations, not terrorism.
Children who are brought there by their parents as part of an illegal land theft, against Geneva Convention, are being used as human shields. The real target is their parents, and ultimately the occupier in general, but if the only way to get to them is to threaten or harm their children, that can't be helped. Besides, you feel the same way about Palestinian human shields killed by Israeli air strikes in Gaza, so get off your high horse.

Terrorism is just a means to an end. Much like the illegal settlements are a means to an end to Israel. If you allow the latter, you open the door to the former. That's what defines what is "proper" resistance: there has to be some force to resist. Otherwise it's simply aggression.
 
Proper resistance is resistance that accomplishes the political goals. It's a waste of time to analyse the morality of any particular act, any more than discussing the morality of bombing civilian populations during a war.

What's the point? Are we supposed to say Palestinians are bad, because some Palestinians killed children? How many Palestinian children have died since the 1948 War? Who killed them? Can anyone defend that?

When violence is used as a tool in political disputes, people die. There is no point in arguing whether such a thing is evil. Words like evil and right, or legitimate, do not apply. They have no use in the discussion. If anyone has a problem with children dying for political goals, they should work on peaceful ways to settle disputes, instead of moaning about the inevitable results of violence.
Where I draw my morality on this matter is Kant's categorical imperative. And the "dicks, pussies and assholes" speech from Team America. Sometimes you have to solve situations with violence, but the rules when that is permissible should be such that it minimizes the overall violence and unfairness, most of the time. Some forms of violent resistance are legitimate, because if people aren't allowed to resist oppression, it rewards the oppressors and in general makes the world a shittier place for everybody.
 
The civilized world has come up with rules that govern conduct in armed conflicts. Why should Palestinians get a pass when they behave in uncivilized way?
Why does Israel? The civilized code of conduct regarding occupied territory is to do only what is necessary to keep the peace, and in particular not unilaterlly annex parts of the territory without valid military reason or a peace treaty. Another rule is that the occupier can't fuck up the demographics of the occupied territory by mass transfer of civilians. Any actions that might force Israel to comply with these rules and act like the rest of the civilized world are ok in my book

In these discussions there are two standards - one for Palestinians, and a much stricter one for Israel. You can see from this rush to excuse both murdering (murder implies a deliberate act) of children and the subsequent glorification of that atrocity by those who pretend to be "partners for peace".
What rush? I condemned the Ma'lot massacre immediately. And there is no double standard, on the contrary my position comes from applying the same rules to both sides and following the same reasoning that allows Israel to defend itself to its logical conclusion.
 
Proper resistance is resistance that accomplishes the political goals. It's a waste of time to analyse the morality of any particular act, any more than discussing the morality of bombing civilian populations during a war.

What's the point? Are we supposed to say Palestinians are bad, because some Palestinians killed children? How many Palestinian children have died since the 1948 War? Who killed them? Can anyone defend that?

When violence is used as a tool in political disputes, people die. There is no point in arguing whether such a thing is evil. Words like evil and right, or legitimate, do not apply. They have no use in the discussion. If anyone has a problem with children dying for political goals, they should work on peaceful ways to settle disputes, instead of moaning about the inevitable results of violence.
Where I draw my morality on this matter is Kant's categorical imperative. And the "dicks, pussies and assholes" speech from Team America. Sometimes you have to solve situations with violence, but the rules when that is permissible should be such that it minimizes the overall violence and unfairness, most of the time. Some forms of violent resistance are legitimate, because if people aren't allowed to resist oppression, it rewards the oppressors and in general makes the world a shittier place for everybody.

Words like "morality" and "legitimate" are very vague in this context. Even the word "permissible" asks us to imagine there is some entity which grants or denies permission for these sorts of things.

People are never allowed to resist oppression. That's what oppression is. If an oppressive government were to issue a decree stating, "Any citizens with grievances should bring them to our attention and there case will be given due consideration and all possible remedies will be applied," has just stopped being oppressive.

Maybe we could take it all to the International Court in the Hague, where one person can argue that their violent action was a perfectly justified response to someone else's perfectly justified violent action.
 
I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance. If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.

Also, "heroism" has nothing to do with whether an act of violence is legitimate resistance or not. In words of Mahatma Gandhi:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?
 
I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance. If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.

Also, "heroism" has nothing to do with whether an act of violence is legitimate resistance or not. In words of Mahatma Gandhi:

So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?
It's no more evil than condoning Israeli air strikes against targets who are hiding behind human shields. Of course it is not a good thing when innocents end up being killed, but the main responsibility lies with whoever is using those children as shields, not the person pulling the trigger.

EDIT: Also, a distinction should be made with whether I think something is good, and whether it's justified. I am not saying Palestinians should be murdering children, just that in some cases I can see how it can be justified as resistance against oppression.
 
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Where I draw my morality on this matter is Kant's categorical imperative. And the "dicks, pussies and assholes" speech from Team America. Sometimes you have to solve situations with violence, but the rules when that is permissible should be such that it minimizes the overall violence and unfairness, most of the time. Some forms of violent resistance are legitimate, because if people aren't allowed to resist oppression, it rewards the oppressors and in general makes the world a shittier place for everybody.

Words like "morality" and "legitimate" are very vague in this context. Even the word "permissible" asks us to imagine there is some entity which grants or denies permission for these sorts of things.

People are never allowed to resist oppression. That's what oppression is. If an oppressive government were to issue a decree stating, "Any citizens with grievances should bring them to our attention and there case will be given due consideration and all possible remedies will be applied," has just stopped being oppressive.

Maybe we could take it all to the International Court in the Hague, where one person can argue that their violent action was a perfectly justified response to someone else's perfectly justified violent action.
Laws and morality are two separate matters. Most international law is more of a suggestion and is unenforceable. That doesn't mean that we can't ponder what would be hypothetically a good way to handle various moral dilemmas. A guy charges at you with a knife, are you allowed to shoot him? Laws and courts in one country or state might say no, in another they might say yes, but we can always ask ourselves the hypothetical what should be allowed.
 
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I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance. If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.

Also, "heroism" has nothing to do with whether an act of violence is legitimate resistance or not. In words of Mahatma Gandhi:

So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?

With the exception of a few true pacifists, everybody considers murdering children who happen to get caught in the crossfire, a good thing. That is to say, they have no objections to it. Occasionally, they are unhappy with which particular children it happens to be, but nothing is every done to prevent it from happening again.

Are you claiming these particular Israeli children have some special sanctity and they deserve to be treated differently than all the other children who died in a political conflict?

We(Americans) lost 22 children in a school, because a mentally ill person had access to an assault rifle. This was a clearly criminal act, with no political issues at all. Even then, we did not change anything as a result of their deaths. Nothing.

I think you are asking a lot from people, if you expect them to do something different, just because you told them about your dead school children.
 
I am not defending it. Ma'lot is a town in northern Israel. It's not occupied territory, hence it's not legitimate resistance. If the same happened now in East Jerusalem or any of the Israeli settlements in West Bank, then it would be justified.

Also, "heroism" has nothing to do with whether an act of violence is legitimate resistance or not. In words of Mahatma Gandhi:

So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?

It helps when you realize "Good" and "Evil" are concepts invented and held by idiots.

Does it not occur to you that more goes into people's judgement beyond "The children?" Or are "The children" in this case nothing more than a convenient moral justification for your argument of the day, where were the roles reversed you wouldn't even bat an eye and whats more, you expect the rest of us to buy your insincere moralizing of a complicated political situation?

'Cuz I'm guessing it's the latter.
 
So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?
It's no more evil than condoning Israeli air strikes against targets who are hiding behind human shields. Of course it is not a good thing when innocents end up being killed, but the main responsibility lies with whoever is using those children as shields, not the person pulling the trigger.

EDIT: Also, a distinction should be made with whether I think something is good, and whether it's justified. I am not saying Palestinians should be murdering children, just that in some cases I can see how it can be justified as resistance against oppression.

Except in the case I was citing there was no human shielding going on. The children were targeted.
 
So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?

With the exception of a few true pacifists, everybody considers murdering children who happen to get caught in the crossfire, a good thing. That is to say, they have no objections to it. Occasionally, they are unhappy with which particular children it happens to be, but nothing is every done to prevent it from happening again.

Are you claiming these particular Israeli children have some special sanctity and they deserve to be treated differently than all the other children who died in a political conflict?

We(Americans) lost 22 children in a school, because a mentally ill person had access to an assault rifle. This was a clearly criminal act, with no political issues at all. Even then, we did not change anything as a result of their deaths. Nothing.

I think you are asking a lot from people, if you expect them to do something different, just because you told them about your dead school children.

Children getting caught in the crossfire is an unfortunate part of war. Children being targeted is pure evil.

- - - Updated - - -

So you consider murdering children to be a good thing if they're in the wrong place?

How can you people live with the evil in your hearts?

It helps when you realize "Good" and "Evil" are concepts invented and held by idiots.

Does it not occur to you that more goes into people's judgement beyond "The children?" Or are "The children" in this case nothing more than a convenient moral justification for your argument of the day, where were the roles reversed you wouldn't even bat an eye and whats more, you expect the rest of us to buy your insincere moralizing of a complicated political situation?

'Cuz I'm guessing it's the latter.

Once again, an attempt to pretend evil isn't evil.
 
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