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What is so improbable about a fine-tuned universe for life

Fine tuned implies optimizations. Fine tuned would mean life everywhere.

The sequence of events and chemical reactions, the elements in the Earth, the accumulation of water, position in the solor system. What are the odds of it being replicated? Extinction scale asteroid strikes.

Hardly an image of fine tuning..
 
lpetrich said:
In short, the Universe is somewhat fine-tuned for our existence to emerge, but not greatly fine-tuned. Some parameters can easily vary by an order of magnitude or more and still yield habitable universes. Furthermore, we may not even live in the best possible universe for habitability.
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To call it fine tuned is to say that it was done on purpose. It is to say that the universe was created with us as its goal.

Fine tuning generally assumes a living god that didn't need any tuning at all to live. So the argument is self defeating.
 
steve_bank said:
Fine tuned implies optimizations. Fine tuned would mean life everywhere.

The sequence of events and chemical reactions, the elements in the Earth, the accumulation of water, position in the solor system. What are the odds of it being replicated? Extinction scale asteroid strikes.

Hardly an image of fine tuning..
Click to expand...

Excellent point. By just focusing on the Earth, it would seem as if life is abundant. But if we shift to the entire universe, it would seem that life is not just scarce, it is practically non-existent from a "fine tuning" argument perspective. We should be seeing every planet teaming with life. And we should be seeing a radically different scale, at least in regard to the evolution of extraterrestrial intelligence (i.e., the level of intelligence required for successful interplanetary travel).

Even with concepts like the Breakthrough Starshot it would take us twenty years to reach the nearest star system. And if that's where we are after 4 billion years of evolution, then other even older civilizations on other planets should have perfected nearly instantaneous forms of intergalactic travel by now and our galaxy alone should be as crowded with intergalactic space travel as any Star Wars film, yet aside from a tiny percentage of UFO claims that may have technically remained unexplained, we see no such ubiquitous activity.

So that brings us back to--of course--a "goddidit and just on Earth because golly gee how neat is Earth" argument.

Which I am rapidly suspecting is ryan's intent from the start of this; to pretend to be clueless when in fact he's just an IDiot in oblivious clothing.
 
Koyaanisqatsi said:
steve_bank said:
Fine tuned implies optimizations. Fine tuned would mean life everywhere.

The sequence of events and chemical reactions, the elements in the Earth, the accumulation of water, position in the solor system. What are the odds of it being replicated? Extinction scale asteroid strikes.

Hardly an image of fine tuning..
Click to expand...

Excellent point. By just focusing on the Earth, it would seem as if life is abundant. But if we shift to the entire universe, it would seem that life is not just scarce, it is practically non-existent from a "fine tuning" argument perspective. We should be seeing every planet teaming with life. And we should be seeing a radically different scale, at least in regard to the evolution of extraterrestrial intelligence (i.e., the level of intelligence required for successful interplanetary travel).

Even with concepts like the Breakthrough Starshot it would take us twenty years to reach the nearest star system. And if that's where we are after 4 billion years of evolution, then other even older civilizations on other planets should have perfected nearly instantaneous forms of intergalactic travel by now and our galaxy alone should be as crowded with intergalactic space travel as any Star Wars film, yet aside from a tiny percentage of UFO claims that may have technically remained unexplained, we see no such ubiquitous activity.

So that brings us back to--of course--a "goddidit and just on Earth because golly gee how neat is Earth" argument.

Which I am rapidly suspecting is ryan's intent from the start of this; to pretend to be clueless when in fact he's just an IDiot in oblivious clothing.
Click to expand...

Going back years on the forum, Ryan appears to be on a quest for some kind of revelation. Life after death for one thing. He tries to find it using science.
 
steve_bank said:
Going back years on the forum, Ryan appears to be on a quest for some kind of revelation. Life after death for one thing. He tries to find it using science.
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Well, he seems to be leaning toward just accepting a "revelation" and rejecting the science. It's certainly not the first time I've seen the theist in agnostic clothing routine before, but I'll hold off judgment.

It would certainly help matters, ryan, if you would actually provide links to the "scientists" that you keep claiming are concluding anything at all about fine-tuning so that we can see whether the word "scientist" is just a masked appeal to authority, or if it is at all relevant to the question.

As I noted before, IDiots constantly falsely equate scientific disciplines, like pointing to archeology as "proof" of the Bible and the like.

So knowing exactly who these "scientists" are--i.e, what their particular discipline is--will give you the revelation you're supposedly seeking.
 
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Imagine a sterile operating room, completely free of any contaminants. Except in one corner under a table dwells a single bacteria.

From a larger perspective, one would hardly say that the operating room has been intentionally designed to be hospitable for organic life. But we would expect the bacteria to feel differently, to take its own odds-defying existence as validation that the operating room was designed for its benefit.
 
Competent designers don't include in their constructions any parts that are completely unnecessary.

The existence of stuff in the solar system that doesn't interact with life on Earth in any way - eg Neptune, Uranus, the asteroids, and most of the various moons, suggests that it's not the work of a competent designer whose plan was focused on the existence of humanity.

The existence of the rest of the universe, in particular distant galaxies, is even more compelling.

And dark matter is most compelling of all - it can't even be handwaved away as 'decorative'.

If there is an 'intelligence' that designed the universe for humanity, then this is clearly a case of Incompetent Design, or 'ID' as I prefer to call it.
 
When someone claims the universe is fine tuned for life they are just stating that the universe is fine tuned for ME. They're stating that they are the reason the universe exists, kinda like that bacterium in the operating room. If Earth is fine tuned for humans why have we been here for such a short time?

Oh, Yeah, that's right, we, Earth and the universe have only been here for six thousand years. Pardon me, I forgot.
 
lpetrich said:
In short, the Universe is somewhat fine-tuned for our existence to emerge, but not greatly fine-tuned. Some parameters can easily vary by an order of magnitude or more and still yield habitable universes. Furthermore, we may not even live in the best possible universe for habitability.
Click to expand...

I disagree with the use of the words "fine tuned" in this context. Fine tuning implies either conscious intent, or the workings of a non-sentient mechanistic process that drives a system towards certain outcomes over time, like natural selection, and there is no evidence that either case is true. It is simply a matter of chance that we exist, as far as we know.

The human genome has about 3 billion nucleotides, and the odds that I would end with the specific arrangement of nucleotides that I actually possess is overwhelmingly low. Yet here I am. No rational person would conclude that my specific genome sequence is the product of sentient design, even though, ironically enough, portions of my genome have actually been fine tuned by natural selection to optimize certain characteristics. A unique nucleotide sequence pattern is generated every time a male gamete fuses with a female egg, and to read intent into these resulting sequences, improbable as they are, makes no sense.
 
The OP...

What is so improbable about a fine-tuned universe for life
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The question of whether the universal constants could be different than they are is an interesting scientific question. To take the gigantic leap to questioning if their values are improbable is a step into speculative philosophy. To take the next gigantic leap to questioning if they were "fine tuned" for life is a step into religion.
 
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T.G.G. Moogly said:
When someone claims the universe is fine tuned for life they are just stating that the universe is fine tuned for ME. They're stating that they are the reason the universe exists, kinda like that bacterium in the operating room. If Earth is fine tuned for humans why have we been here for such a short time?

Oh, Yeah, that's right, we, Earth and the universe have only been here for six thousand years days. Pardon me, I forgot.
Click to expand...

FTFY.

/LastTuesdayist
 
It's just a brain in a Jar being fed a set of memories of a past that never happened, in World that doesn't exist, donchya know....
 
While on the subject of life in the Universe;


Hungarian Researchers Claim to See Biosignatures in Martian Meteorite.

''ALH-77005, a Martian rock found in Antarctica, contains numerous mineralized ‘biosignatures,’ including coccoidal, filamentous structures and organic material, according to a team of scientists from Hungary.''

Dr. Gyollai and co-authors analyzed a thin section of ALH-77005 by optical and FTIR-ATR microscopy.

They were able to detect the presence of coccoidal and filamentous structures (probably built by iron-oxidizing microbes); organic material; biogenic minerals, like ferrihydrite, goethite, and hematite.

“The other signatures for biogenicity of ALH-77005 are strong negative δ13C, enrichment of iron, manganese, phosphorus, zinc in shock melt support scenario,” the researchers said.

“Our study proposes presence of microbial mediation on Mars.”
 
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