What is the difference between present and past?

[ryan]

So when you look at a tree, do you say that the trunk changed to the leaves along the vertical y-axis? The trunk is still there, as well as the leaves. Remember, a block universe does not change, it has no old parts or new parts; it is a single object like a tree, if the tree were totally static.

When we talk about differences between things on the time axis, we use the word "change", but other than that, yes: the difference between different time-slices of an object is just like the difference between different space-slices of an object. We simply use different words to describe different dimensions, because our brains create the impression that we are constantly moving along the time axis. If we had the same illusion about space, and could only interact with things for an instant before they slid out of our grasp into the distance, we would probably use similar terminology to talk about the spatial dimensions.

Hhhhh, but we were talking about a block universe; 4 unchanging spatial dimensions are implied.

Anyways, my issue remains. Assuming a block universe, what is this nonphysical thing flowing through the "block" giving it notions of present, past and future? Clearly there is something really strange going on here and I don't see how we can avoid the idea of dualism.

 

[bilby]

Presumably time travel to the ''past'' from any 'present' standpoint of an observer would be possible in Block Universe, all points in 'time' being equally real withing the BU.

For a given value of 'possible'.

As far as we can tell, travel in time is constrained to the rate and direction allowed by relativity. You move forward at between 0 and 1 second per second, depending upon your acceleration; to move at a rate less than zero requires you to accelerate beyond c, which we currently do not believe to be achievable for entities with a rest-mass zero or greater.

 

[Copernicus]

When we talk about differences between things on the time axis, we use the word "change", but other than that, yes: the difference between different time-slices of an object is just like the difference between different space-slices of an object. We simply use different words to describe different dimensions, because our brains create the impression that we are constantly moving along the time axis. If we had the same illusion about space, and could only interact with things for an instant before they slid out of our grasp into the distance, we would probably use similar terminology to talk about the spatial dimensions.

Hhhhh, but we were talking about a block universe; 4 unchanging spatial dimensions are implied.

Anyways, my issue remains. Assuming a block universe, what is this nonphysical thing flowing through the "block" giving it notions of present, past and future? Clearly there is something really strange going on here and I don't see how we can avoid the idea of dualism.

Consciousness is a systemic property of brain activity. If you freeze the activity, then the system ceases to function. If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

 

[bilby]

Ten light minutes.

The past is separated from us by mere distance; The further away we look, the further into the past we see.

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Our consciousness can view any moment of time, past, present, or future. However, part of what it views is the current state of whatever brain is harboring it at each moment, including memories and accumulated experience, creating the illusion of time flowing from one moment to the next.

Why can't I be conscious in the past right now (in a block or growing block universe)?

I see no reason whatsoever why you cannot be.

Then why am I not still viewing in the past? I am viewing now.

In a block universe you are always viewing every point you ever view.

The appearance of motion in time is an illusion. Every point you ever experience is 'now'. You might think that you remember the past, but those memories themselves are in the present. They give you the illusion of progress, but the reality is that all of the nows look like now, and there's no need to care about their sequence if you are taking a higher dimensional perspective.

 

[bilby]

Presumably time travel to the ''past'' from any 'present' standpoint of an observer would be possible in Block Universe, all points in 'time' being equally real withing the BU.

But nothing changes in a block universe. What is there has always been that way and always will.

So what is going back in time, a nonphysical consciousness?

One scary implication of this seems to be that if you were to go back in time, you would forever keep in that loop, in a block universe. Unless of course we have free will.

The implication is that you always were/are/will be at every point in time, and that freedom of will is purely fictional.

Not only would you have to precisely repeat your actions if you went back in time; you are doing so right now' (where now' is the sum of all now at which you are conscious). In the higher dimensional view, there is only now'. And now' is all of now viewed in the lower dimensional perspective.

 

[Copernicus]

But nothing changes in a block universe. What is there has always been that way and always will.

So what is going back in time, a nonphysical consciousness?

One scary implication of this seems to be that if you were to go back in time, you would forever keep in that loop, in a block universe. Unless of course we have free will.

The implication is that you always were/are/will be at every point in time, and that freedom of will is purely fictional.

Not only would you have to precisely repeat your actions if you went back in time; you are doing so right now' (where now' is the sum of all now at which you are conscious). In the higher dimensional view, there is only now'. And now' is all of now viewed in the lower dimensional perspective.

I suppose the problem with this scenario is that it makes you an external observer, where "now" is the subjective experience of monitoring the universe. There is no "now" relative to such a universe, because "now" is a temporal concept. It has no meaning outside the concept of a timeline.

 

[ryan]

Hhhhh, but we were talking about a block universe; 4 unchanging spatial dimensions are implied.

Anyways, my issue remains. Assuming a block universe, what is this nonphysical thing flowing through the "block" giving it notions of present, past and future? Clearly there is something really strange going on here and I don't see how we can avoid the idea of dualism.

Consciousness is a systemic property of brain activity. If you freeze the activity, then the system ceases to function.

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

 

[ryan]

Then why am I not still viewing in the past? I am viewing now.

In a block universe you are always viewing every point you ever view.

Sure, but you are not conscious of them all at once. If the past, present and future exist all at the same time with no distinction or change, what is moving through this static structure to give these illusions? What is having an illusion. It's the consciousness flowing/travelling through the universe; some call it a "moving spotlight" in the A-theory of eternalism/block.U.

 

[DBT]

Conciousness is a process in time. If you watch a ”frozen” block universe you wont see conciousness.
Conciousness ”is” the unfolding of the brain activity.
No change - no conciousness.

Nothing moves or changes in a block universe. How can anything "unfold" or have "activity"?

Like looking at a hologram or optical illusion. perhaps its is a matter of perspective and perception;

 

[PyramidHead]

Consciousness is a systemic property of brain activity. If you freeze the activity, then the system ceases to function.

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

I think see the source of your confusion now. There is actually nothing "moving" through the frozen universe in any literal sense. At each moment, you are conscious and experiencing whatever is happening to you at that moment, in the context of whatever is already stored in your brain. The sequence of time-slices, arranged in a series against this backdrop of brain context, is probably what gives rise to the illusion of past, present, and future in a flowing continuum. I don't know exactly how.

EDIT: In the same sense that your consciousness "moves" from one time to another even though time does not flow, it can be said to "move" from one brain to another. To put it differently, the consciousness that experiences a moment of time in a given brain is not essentially different from the one that experiences a different moment in a different brain under this interpretation. It's simpler to talk about it as if there's just one consciousness, not in the Hindu sense of a Big Self, but from a higher dimensional perspective of this block-universe thing we've been talking about. I like this interpretation because it solves the otherwise intractable problem of why anybody was born at the exact time and place they were, as the person they were, rather than as someone else. In a block-universe scenario, you were born as someone else--everybody else, in fact. This notion is symmetrical with the answer to your question from before, about why you are not conscious in the past but are only conscious "now". In the same way that your past selves are conscious in their respective "nows" in a block universe, you are conscious in every brain's respective "me" at this very moment. I'm probably not conveying this very well, am I?

 

[ryan]

Nothing moves or changes in a block universe. How can anything "unfold" or have "activity"?

Like looking at a hologram or optical illusion. perhaps its is a matter of perspective and perception;

But what is perceiving the illusion. And why is its perception changing in a static structure?

 

[fromderinside]

Simple. Human perception is based on several things, among them sensing change. It makes sense because the primary distinction between now and previous is a difference in conditions.

 

[ryan]

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

I think see the source of your confusion now. There is actually nothing "moving" through the frozen universe in any literal sense. At each moment, you are conscious and experiencing whatever is happening to you at that moment, in the context of whatever is already stored in your brain. The sequence of time-slices, arranged in a series against this backdrop of brain context, is probably what gives rise to the illusion of past, present, and future in a flowing continuum. I don't know exactly how.

EDIT: In the same sense that your consciousness "moves" from one time to another even though time does not flow, it can be said to "move" from one brain to another. To put it differently, the consciousness that experiences a moment of time in a given brain is not essentially different from the one that experiences a different moment in a different brain under this interpretation. It's simpler to talk about it as if there's just one consciousness, not in the Hindu sense of a Big Self, but from a higher dimensional perspective of this block-universe thing we've been talking about. I like this interpretation because it solves the otherwise intractable problem of why anybody was born at the exact time and place they were, as the person they were, rather than as someone else. In a block-universe scenario, you were born as someone else--everybody else, in fact. This notion is symmetrical with the answer to your question from before, about why you are not conscious in the past but are only conscious "now". In the same way that your past selves are conscious in their respective "nows" in a block universe, you are conscious in every brain's respective "me" at this very moment. I'm probably not conveying this very well, am I?

You are still using ideas of time and change. But nothing physical is changing in a block universe. But changes are occurring for a mind/consciousness.

It is exactly as if you were walking through an ancient tunnel and noticing all of the ancient art, tools etc. But when a different observer from a higher dimension looks at the tunnel when you are walking through it, all he will see is you grown through the tunnel like a weed. He would acknowledge the space you take up, but he would never see any sign of change even though changes were happening in you mind as you walked through it. And there would be no sign or reason to think that anything happened in a particular succession because for him, your beginning and your end is arbitrary not a singular direction.

Added: Even when you are only halfway through the tunnel, he will see your body at both ends of the tunnel. You will experience changes, but he won't detect any physical change. This seems to mean that your mind is nonphysical.

Minds may be like ghosts floating through the universe. Brains would be "portals" for them to the physical universe.

 

[ryan]

Simple. Human perception is based on several things, among them sensing change. It makes sense because the primary distinction between now and previous is a difference in conditions.

Why is it in one direction? Why is it in any direction? There needs to be more than physical properties to explain why and how I am experiencing change when there is no change actually happening.

 

[rousseau]

Simple. Human perception is based on several things, among them sensing change. It makes sense because the primary distinction between now and previous is a difference in conditions.

Why is it in one direction? Why is it in any direction? There needs to be more than physical properties to explain why and how I am experiencing change when there is no change actually happening.

There is no direction, there is only material change. Because living things have memory to store past events they can make mental calculations and representations of different states of the universe at different points of time in this change.

To the universe 'time' doesn't matter, time is just something living things use to measure the universe between different states.

 

[ryan]

Why is it in one direction? Why is it in any direction? There needs to be more than physical properties to explain why and how I am experiencing change when there is no change actually happening.

There is no direction, there is only material change. Because living things have memory to store past events they can make mental calculations and representations of different states of the universe at different points of time in this change.

To the universe 'time' doesn't matter, time is just something living things use to measure the universe between different states.

If we are going to assume time has no direction and changes actually occur that are not just "growing" timelines like with a growing block universe, then we are stuck with notions of presentism, and we would have to reconsider relativity.

I haven't fully explored presentism, but from what I have read it just goes against too much scientific evidence for me to take seriously.

But I am always interested in anything that tries to explain all of this.

 

[bilby]

The implication is that you always were/are/will be at every point in time, and that freedom of will is purely fictional.

Not only would you have to precisely repeat your actions if you went back in time; you are doing so right now' (where now' is the sum of all now at which you are conscious). In the higher dimensional view, there is only now'. And now' is all of now viewed in the lower dimensional perspective.

I suppose the problem with this scenario is that it makes you an external observer, where "now" is the subjective experience of monitoring the universe. There is no "now" relative to such a universe, because "now" is a temporal concept. It has no meaning outside the concept of a timeline.

It does that; But I fail to see how this difference in perspective represents a problem.

All the nows are happening to the higher dimensional observer. All of them feel special and unique to the lower dimensional observer, and from the lower dimensional perspective contain memories of the past, and a feeling of moving towards the future.

 

[bilby]

Consciousness is a systemic property of brain activity. If you freeze the activity, then the system ceases to function.

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

It's consciousness can't move either. The rules are no movement - there are no special rules for fictional 'consciousnesses' or 'souls'.

At all points in at which it is conscious, its consciousness exists and has the feeling of moving through time as one of its properties. But nothing is moving through anything.

- - - Updated - - -

In a block universe you are always viewing every point you ever view.

Sure, but you are not conscious of them all at once. If the past, present and future exist all at the same time with no distinction or change, what is moving through this static structure to give these illusions? What is having an illusion. It's the consciousness flowing/travelling through the universe; some call it a "moving spotlight" in the A-theory of eternalism/block.U.

Yes you are. You are conscious of them all at once, from the higher dimensional perspective. Nothing is moving at all.

 

[bilby]

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

I think see the source of your confusion now. There is actually nothing "moving" through the frozen universe in any literal sense. At each moment, you are conscious and experiencing whatever is happening to you at that moment, in the context of whatever is already stored in your brain. The sequence of time-slices, arranged in a series against this backdrop of brain context, is probably what gives rise to the illusion of past, present, and future in a flowing continuum. I don't know exactly how.

EDIT: In the same sense that your consciousness "moves" from one time to another even though time does not flow, it can be said to "move" from one brain to another. To put it differently, the consciousness that experiences a moment of time in a given brain is not essentially different from the one that experiences a different moment in a different brain under this interpretation. It's simpler to talk about it as if there's just one consciousness, not in the Hindu sense of a Big Self, but from a higher dimensional perspective of this block-universe thing we've been talking about. I like this interpretation because it solves the otherwise intractable problem of why anybody was born at the exact time and place they were, as the person they were, rather than as someone else. In a block-universe scenario, you were born as someone else--everybody else, in fact. This notion is symmetrical with the answer to your question from before, about why you are not conscious in the past but are only conscious "now". In the same way that your past selves are conscious in their respective "nows" in a block universe, you are conscious in every brain's respective "me" at this very moment. I'm probably not conveying this very well, am I?

You are still using ideas of time and change. But nothing physical is changing in a block universe. But changes are occurring for a mind/consciousness.

It is exactly as if you were walking through an ancient tunnel and noticing all of the ancient art, tools etc. But when a different observer from a higher dimension looks at the tunnel when you are walking through it, all he will see is you grown through the tunnel like a weed. He would acknowledge the space you take up, but he would never see any sign of change even though changes were happening in you mind as you walked through it. And there would be no sign or reason to think that anything happened in a particular succession because for him, your beginning and your end is arbitrary not a singular direction.

Added: Even when you are only halfway through the tunnel, he will see your body at both ends of the tunnel. You will experience changes, but he won't detect any physical change. This seems to mean that your mind is nonphysical.

Minds may be like ghosts floating through the universe. Brains would be "portals" for them to the physical universe.

Nope.

In a block universe, nothing changes at the higher dimensional perspective. You cannot break the laws of physics, Jim; Not even if you invent a 'soul' or a 'ghost' to do your dirty work for you.

You are imagining a new set of rules, and then applying the old rules to parts of the structure that the new rules define. That's a foul. You have to apply the new (higher dimensional) perspective to EVERYTHING, or to NOTHING.

 

[ryan]

The activity is frozen in a block universe. Activity is the illusion. Activity does not change anymore than a static structure when in a block universe.

If you are speaking of Cartesian dualism (not the only kind), then mental activity takes place in conjunction with brain activity. It could theoretically continue after brain activity ceases, but there is no reason to believe in Cartesian dualism to begin with. Nothing about the block universe makes it difficult to avoid dualism.

If you looked at a 4d ant on a 4d basketball, where all 4 dimensions are static like in a block universe, from your perspective the ant does not move. But the ant may experience all kinds of changes; the ant would think things move and change. But it may just be its consciousness that is actually moving through its "frozen" universe.

It's consciousness can't move either. The rules are no movement - there are no special rules for fictional 'consciousnesses' or 'souls'.

At all points in at which it is conscious, its consciousness exists and has the feeling of moving through time as one of its properties. But nothing is moving through anything.

- - - Updated - - -

In a block universe you are always viewing every point you ever view.

Sure, but you are not conscious of them all at once. If the past, present and future exist all at the same time with no distinction or change, what is moving through this static structure to give these illusions? What is having an illusion. It's the consciousness flowing/travelling through the universe; some call it a "moving spotlight" in the A-theory of eternalism/block.U.

Yes you are. You are conscious of them all at once, from the higher dimensional perspective. Nothing is moving at all.

Things are changing for my consciousness. From the higher dimension they aren't, as you say. There is an easy way out of this contradiction, but it involves something that cannot be sensed physically. Nothing magical, it's just a different kind of stuff.

Nope.

In a block universe, nothing changes at the higher dimensional perspective. You cannot break the laws of physics, Jim; Not even if you invent a 'soul' or a 'ghost' to do your dirty work for you.

What did I say (in post #79) that disagrees with this?