What is the point of earth (to god)?

[Lion IRC]

...I've wondered why Christians never care to wonder why their god created an earth with suffering

Did you find that on the theodicy link?
Yep. You sure did.

Dude. The part you clipped out is the important bit. And no, you won’t find it on your link about theodicity.

Why was HEAVEN not the obvious answer to the problem of evil...

I'm sorry.
The problem of what

 

[bilby]

Dude. The part you clipped out is the important bit. And no, you won’t find it on your link about theodicity.

Why was HEAVEN not the obvious answer to the problem of evil...

I'm sorry.
The problem of what

You are not fooling anyone. Nor is your reluctance to engage in honest discussion helping your case.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Our experiences of perfection are temporary, but perfection itself is not. Perfection is considered to exist in a timeless state; so when we experience it, we are getting a glimpse of perfection or "participating" in it. That we sometimes make mistakes is irrelevant.

I don't want to get too sidetracked with this. It's Ancient Greek thought. I think it's very intuitive, but I'm not arguing for some material or objective reality.

The fact that we make mistakes isn't irrelevant, it's central. If perfection were a single absolute and we only get glimpses of it, there would be a consistency to those glimpses and they would collectively give us more information about what this absolute is instead of less information. This would especially be the case if we were living in a universe which was specifically designed to share this perfection with us.

If perfection was an external, objective thing we get glimpses of as opposed to an internal, subjective one which we make up ourselves, there would not be such a vast disagreement in how we use the term.

How do you know if you made a mistake? How do you know the degree of perfection? By having a sense of the absolute to measure against.

Because they're not actually "mistakes". They word would only actually apply if there were something objective to measure them against, but if one person thinks that the perfect sandwich is Montreal smoked meat from Benny's, another person is a vegan and thinks it's one with some kale and avocado mix and another thinks that it's bologna and cheese because it reminds him of what his mom used to make him as a kid, none of them are wrong or have made a mistake about their concept of perfection. None of those are a "better" example of a perfect sandwich because there isn't some kind of Ideal Sandwich to measure them against.

The same holds true for any other concept of perfection. A perfect day, a perfect woman, a perfect song, a perfect government or anything else. However each individual defines those for themselves, they're correct because there isn't an absolute standard to measure them against.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Because they're not actually "mistakes". They word would only actually apply if there were something objective to measure them against, but if one person thinks that the perfect sandwich is Montreal smoked meat from Benny's, another person is a vegan and thinks it's one with some kale and avocado mix and another thinks that it's bologna and cheese because it reminds him of what his mom used to make him as a kid, none of them are wrong or have made a mistake about their concept of perfection. None of those are a "better" example of a perfect sandwich because there isn't some kind of Ideal Sandwich to measure them against.

The same holds true for any other concept of perfection. A perfect day, a perfect woman, a perfect song, a perfect government or anything else. However each individual defines those for themselves, they're correct because there isn't an absolute standard to measure them against.

Gawd, back to the "actualies" again...no one knows anything. I'm done.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Because they're not actually "mistakes". They word would only actually apply if there were something objective to measure them against, but if one person thinks that the perfect sandwich is Montreal smoked meat from Benny's, another person is a vegan and thinks it's one with some kale and avocado mix and another thinks that it's bologna and cheese because it reminds him of what his mom used to make him as a kid, none of them are wrong or have made a mistake about their concept of perfection. None of those are a "better" example of a perfect sandwich because there isn't some kind of Ideal Sandwich to measure them against.

The same holds true for any other concept of perfection. A perfect day, a perfect woman, a perfect song, a perfect government or anything else. However each individual defines those for themselves, they're correct because there isn't an absolute standard to measure them against.

Gawd, back to the "actualies" again...no one knows anything. I'm done.

It's your point, dude. I didn't bring them up.

 

[Rhea]

Dude. The part you clipped out is the important bit. And no, you won’t find it on your link about theodicity.

Why was HEAVEN not the obvious answer to the problem of evil...

I'm sorry.
The problem of what

Lion. You are jhilarious.

Here is your link. Here is the FIRST SENTENCE OF your link.

Theodicy (/θiːˈɒdɪsi/), in its most common form, is an attempt to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.

So, to sum up; I write a post:
R: "I wonder why Christians never discuss HEAVEN in this context of being a solution to the suffering that happens on earth...perhaps it's because earth is needed as a soul factory?"
and you reply
L: Hey, here's this link about the problem of evil that never mentions heaven! Let's talk about that instead!
R: Because your link fails to address the contemplation of heaven for the Problem of Evil, which is what the OP is about
L: What's the problem of evil?
R: Oh, crap, the Bot got broken. There goes the neighborhood. Contact your programmer, Lion. You need a logic upgrade.

 

[Rhea]

Our experiences of perfection are temporary, but perfection itself is not. Perfection is considered to exist in a timeless state; so when we experience it, we are getting a glimpse of perfection or "participating" in it. That we sometimes make mistakes is irrelevant.

I don't want to get too sidetracked with this. It's Ancient Greek thought. I think it's very intuitive, but I'm not arguing for some material or objective reality.

The fact that we make mistakes isn't irrelevant, it's central. If perfection were a single absolute and we only get glimpses of it, there would be a consistency to those glimpses and they would collectively give us more information about what this absolute is instead of less information. This would especially be the case if we were living in a universe which was specifically designed to share this perfection with us.

If perfection was an external, objective thing we get glimpses of as opposed to an internal, subjective one which we make up ourselves, there would not be such a vast disagreement in how we use the term.

How do you know if you made a mistake? How do you know the degree of perfection? By having a sense of the absolute to measure against.

Horatio - I'm still having trouble understanding what on earth (pun intended) this has to do with the topic. Can you please provide a summary for why mistakes and perfection have anything to do with why it was necessary (in the context of Christianity) for the god to build earth when s/he/it already had heaven which is the place of no-suffering where not a tear shall be shed, according to the christianity?

 

[Rhea]

The classic reason is God created the world to share his perfection. The reason for the universe to exist is desire for understanding.

Let me tell you then why the creator made this world of generation. He was good, and the good can never have any jealousy of anything. And being free from jealousy, he desired that all things should be as like himself as they could be. This is in the truest sense the origin of creation and of the world, as we shall do well in believing on the testimony of wise men: God desired that all things should be good and nothing bad, so far as this was attainable.

Going back here to try to follow your thoughts:
In the context of the OP, why was heaven not a better way to share his perfection, given that Heaven is defined in the bible as fabulous and without suffering.

Why create earth when Heaven already existed?
What's Earth (uniquely) for that Heaven doesn't accomplish better?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Horatio - I'm still having trouble understanding what on earth (pun intended) this has to do with the topic. Can you please provide a summary for why mistakes and perfection have anything to do with why it was necessary (in the context of Christianity) for the god to build earth when s/he/it already had heaven which is the place of no-suffering where not a tear shall be shed, according to the christianity?

It's a siderail, as opposed to a derail.

Some here don't believe that when a person experiences perfection, that 1) it "actually" isn't perfection and 2) everyone's perfection is different so there can be no universal perfection.

IOW they can't accept or understand Platonic forms. These forms, ideas like justice, wisdom etc were considered godlike powers. That's the relevance to the cosmology: god created minds that could comprehend these higher thoughts.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The classic reason is God created the world to share his perfection. The reason for the universe to exist is desire for understanding.

Let me tell you then why the creator made this world of generation. He was good, and the good can never have any jealousy of anything. And being free from jealousy, he desired that all things should be as like himself as they could be. This is in the truest sense the origin of creation and of the world, as we shall do well in believing on the testimony of wise men: God desired that all things should be good and nothing bad, so far as this was attainable.

Going back here to try to follow your thoughts:
In the context of the OP, why was heaven not a better way to share his perfection, given that Heaven is defined in the bible as fabulous and without suffering.

Why create earth when Heaven already existed?
What's Earth (uniquely) for that Heaven doesn't accomplish better?

These ideas were the products of humans attempting to find meaning in their existence, not fantasies of unknown angels in heaven.

You could also ask why we weren't made as fish or birds. Equally speculative and futile.

 

[Learner]

Going back here to try to follow your thoughts:
In the context of the OP, why was heaven not a better way to share his perfection, given that Heaven is defined in the bible as fabulous and without suffering.

What's Earth (uniquely) for that Heaven doesn't accomplish better?

That answer is often said in prayer: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" which should give the better context.

Why create earth when Heaven already existed?

There were no physical humans in heaven obviously (by the theology ) and the concept or to the OP "The Point of Earth" was rather about the "new" creation by God. Its all in the bible folks! Eden was a paradise ...until the interference of the "darkside" shall we say (using the star-wars terminology). Now its the on-route via the events to come in revelation. New Earth etc ...

 

[abaddon]

Now its the on-route via the events to come in revelation. New Earth etc ...

And that's the end result of the marriage of platonism with hebraism. The ideal spiritual reality is elsewhere than this damnable physical reality.

That's where reifying empty abstractions can get you.

 

[Learner]

Now its the on-route via the events to come in revelation. New Earth etc ...

And that's the end result of the marriage of platonism with hebraism. The ideal spiritual reality is elsewhere than this damnable physical reality.

That's where reifying empty abstractions can get you.

Not at all. It's high-lighting the "corruption" of the flesh. Originally Adam and Eve were said to be physically perfect.

We can't help but be born with the tainted genetics ever since and are "bound" to fall short (Hence Jesus's arrival on the scene). We are to be "born again" ..but yes sprirtually/ connecting ... not to mean born-again of the flesh in this current domain.

 

[abaddon]

We... are "bound" to fall short...

Of what? Fall short of that reified empty abstraction "perfection", or "glory of god"?

You only illustrated what I'm getting at. Liking ideals better than reality leads to people seeing anything as somehow "corrupted". Corrupted as compared to a fantastical absolute ideal. Then, after this human judgment, comes the need to "transcend" somehow. So some people (stricken with an inability to see the difference between imagination and reality) have to make a circuitous route into the perfection they long for... Heaven.

 

[Learner]

We... are "bound" to fall short...

Of what? Fall short of that reified empty abstraction "perfection", or "glory of god"?

You only illustrated what I'm getting at. Liking ideals better than reality leads to people seeing anything as somehow "corrupted". Corrupted as compared to a fantastical absolute ideal.

For one: to "fall short" of all the original commandments before Jesus arrived where HE tells us of two most important "new" commandments much easier to follow in comparison ... apart from those that do actually follow the previous laws of God.

The flesh tainted is by the "seed" of Satan ( there are better people to explain this than me regarding Cain which is new to me - the bible revealing itself as the theology goes) which relates to:

John 8:44-45 King
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

also example in Genesis 6:1

“When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually


Basically today we all have the genetics. What does one do with spoilt goods? We usually get rid of them completely. But not in this case (by the theology perspective)
God loves you!

 

[Lion IRC]

Dude. The part you clipped out is the important bit. And no, you won’t find it on your link about theodicity.

Why was HEAVEN not the obvious answer to the problem of evil...

I'm sorry.
The problem of what

Lion. You are jhilarious.

Here is your link. Here is the FIRST SENTENCE OF your link.

Theodicy (/θiːˈɒdɪsi/), in its most common form, is an attempt to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.

So, to sum up; I write a post:
R: "I wonder why Christians never discuss HEAVEN in this context of being a solution to the suffering that happens on earth...perhaps it's because earth is needed as a soul factory?"
and you reply
L: Hey, here's this link about the problem of evil that never mentions heaven! Let's talk about that instead!
R: Because your link fails to address the contemplation of heaven for the Problem of Evil, which is what the OP is about
L: What's the problem of evil?
R: Oh, crap, the Bot got broken. There goes the neighborhood. Contact your programmer, Lion. You need a logic upgrade.

I think you're getting frustrated because if there was no so-called 'problem' of evil then you wouldn't even have an Op. Just admit it. You're asking why does evil/suffering/hell exist.

Why can't there just be a finish line instead of the race?
Why can't everything all just taste the same instead of sweet/bitter?
Why can't we know the definition of good without knowing it's opposite?
Why can't God force everyone to be good?

*sigh*

 

[4321lynx]

Lion. You are jhilarious.

Here is your link. Here is the FIRST SENTENCE OF your link.

Theodicy (/θiːˈɒdɪsi/), in its most common form, is an attempt to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.

So, to sum up; I write a post:
R: "I wonder why Christians never discuss HEAVEN in this context of being a solution to the suffering that happens on earth...perhaps it's because earth is needed as a soul factory?"
and you reply
L: Hey, here's this link about the problem of evil that never mentions heaven! Let's talk about that instead!
R: Because your link fails to address the contemplation of heaven for the Problem of Evil, which is what the OP is about
L: What's the problem of evil?
R: Oh, crap, the Bot got broken. There goes the neighborhood. Contact your programmer, Lion. You need a logic upgrade.

I think you're getting frustrated because if there was no so-called 'problem' of evil then you wouldn't even have an Op. Just admit it. You're asking why does evil/suffering/hell exist.

Why can't there just be a finish line instead of the race?
Why can't everything all just taste the same instead of sweet/bitter?
Why can't we know the definition of good without knowing it's opposite?
Why can't God force everyone to be good?

*sigh*

The real problem is Why can't God force himself to be good?

 

[Rhea]

Not at all. It's high-lighting the "corruption" of the flesh. Originally Adam and Eve were said to be physically perfect.

We can't help but be born with the tainted genetics ever since and are "bound" to fall short (Hence Jesus's arrival on the scene). We are to be "born again" ..but yes sprirtually/ connecting ... not to mean born-again of the flesh in this current domain.

Is this because your god was incapable of deleting corrupted version 1.0 and starting again with 2.0 with the bugs fixed?

Seems like that would have been a shitload easier, more straightforward and more successful that letting the flawed version propagate.

 

[Rhea]

I think you're getting frustrated

Oh, I am not frustrated at all. I don't know why you think I am. It is interesting watching you do these mental gymnastics to avoid answering a direct question.

because if there was no so-called 'problem' of evil then you wouldn't even have an Op.

There is no problem of evil in heaven. ... Is there?

Just admit it. You're asking why does evil/suffering/hell exist.

I have nothing to "admit". I am wondering why the Christian story needs an earth.

Why can't there just be a finish line instead of the race?

Heaven is not a finish line, is it? Aren't there beings born into it? Or is that not possible (and if not, were the angels born on earth?)
That's one of my questions. Is earth needed because more souls are needed in your heaven and somehow your god is no longer capable of making them there and for some reason needs more of them?

Why can't everything all just taste the same instead of sweet/bitter?

Oh? Is everything the same in Heaven? It all tastes the same for eternity? How ... unheavenly.

Why can't we know the definition of good without knowing it's opposite?

Non sequitur.

Also we can know good without knowing the opposite. Dark cherry ice cream is really really good. One of my favorites. Interestingly, I can taste all kinds of ice creams and while none of them are bad, and certainly none are the opposite of dark cherry, the diversity is delightful and does serve to refresh the sensation that I like dark cherry best. But I don't need opposite-dark-cherry-opposite-of-favorite to know that.

Do you eat cat shit so that you can know your favorite ice cream flavor?

Why can't God force everyone to be good?

How does he do it in Heaven?

*sigh*

get some rest if you're tired.


You say all this with such melancholy; as if you know that you are going to be so incredibly disappointed with Heaven. No journey, just a destination. No flavors. A god forcing you to be good. And not even knowing what good _is_ since you no longer have access to its opposite.

I am so sorry for your hopeless future. What a terrible burden you bear, knowing this is your future (if you're allowed to go).

 

[Jobar]

I think you're getting frustrated because if there was no so-called 'problem' of evil then you wouldn't even have an Op. Just admit it. You're asking why does evil/suffering/hell exist.

Why can't there just be a finish line instead of the race?
Why can't everything all just taste the same instead of sweet/bitter?
Why can't we know the definition of good without knowing it's opposite?
Why can't God force everyone to be good?

*sigh*

Lion, if God planned for the bitter as well as the sweet, for evil as well as for good, you really can't call him benevolent.

It seems to me that the only way such a god would not be at least amoral, and perhaps malevolent, is to say that He Himself is creating/experiencing the shadow face of reality right along with us; that He is omnipresent, sinning with the sinners, as well as experiencing the ecstasies of the saints.

If the red slayer thinks he slays
Or the slain think he is slain
They know not well the subtle ways
I keep, and pass, and turn again.

Far or forgot to me is near;
Shadow and sunlight are the same;
The vanish'd gods to me appear;
And one to me are shame and fame.

They reckon ill who leave me out;
When me they fly, I am the wings;
I am the doubter and the doubt,
And I the hymn the Brahmin sings.

The strong gods pine for my abode,
And pine in vain the sacred Seven;
But thou, meek lover of the good!
Find me, and turn thy back on heaven.


The trouble for Christians- that pantheistic view means God knowingly and intentionally makes evil as well as good. See Isaiah 45:7. That means He is responsible for the evil men do, and all that stuff about the Fall and Original Sin and Free Will and Salvation falls away. Christ had no purpose- or at least not the purpose most Christians presume.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU0PYcCsL6o[/YOUTUBE]