What is worse, racism or rape?

[blastula]

No, it really doesn't. Religion can no more "produce" irrational thinking than a Selena Gomez album can produce terrible music. That is to say religion IS irrational thinking, not an irrational thinker.

Religion cannot actually THINK. That is the provenance of religious PEOPLE, whose thoughts are shaped by their emotions, experiences, biases, prejudices, beliefs and worldviews. We do not blame thoughts for behavior, though, we blame PEOPLE for their behavior.

Religion can produce emotional states and positive/negative reactions in the minds of religious people, which is why religion is not a helpful thing to introduce when dealing with someone who is already irrational or prone to violence.

Again, kind of like alcohol.

Some people create the system, others learn from the system.

The system doesn't have casual power like that. Even when religion was identical with the instruments of the state -- or maybe especially then -- it could only influence behavior through enforcement mechanisms like any other system. But in modern times, nobody blames the LEGALITY of guns for people wanting to own them, and there is no government law saying that everyone HAS to go to a fireworks show on the 4th of July. People do these things because they want to, not because the law says they should. Really, the only aspect of religion that has ever been compulsory regardless of anyone's disposition is the collection of tithes; this, again, is identical to political government, which compels the collection of taxes.

Religion isn't some magical series of incantations that can brainwash people into doing things they never would have done otherwise. It's a cultural artifact that distorts a person's already-existing impulses in various ways, but those impulses must already exist for any of that to happen. Religion doesn't cause gospel music or Christian Rock either; musicians do that, and they would probably still be musicians even if they never decided to make religious music (in fact this is usually exactly what happens once musicians figure out that churches are absolutely terrible at paying their bills on time).

You are trying to argue religion is an (or the only?) environmental factor that has no influence on behavior. My existing impulses tell me your post is complete garbage.

 

[Toni]

No, it really doesn't. Religion can no more "produce" irrational thinking than a Selena Gomez album can produce terrible music. That is to say religion IS irrational thinking, not an irrational thinker.

Religion cannot actually THINK. That is the provenance of religious PEOPLE, whose thoughts are shaped by their emotions, experiences, biases, prejudices, beliefs and worldviews. We do not blame thoughts for behavior, though, we blame PEOPLE for their behavior.

Religion can produce emotional states and positive/negative reactions in the minds of religious people, which is why religion is not a helpful thing to introduce when dealing with someone who is already irrational or prone to violence.

Again, kind of like alcohol.



The system doesn't have casual power like that. Even when religion was identical with the instruments of the state -- or maybe especially then -- it could only influence behavior through enforcement mechanisms like any other system. But in modern times, nobody blames the LEGALITY of guns for people wanting to own them, and there is no government law saying that everyone HAS to go to a fireworks show on the 4th of July. People do these things because they want to, not because the law says they should. Really, the only aspect of religion that has ever been compulsory regardless of anyone's disposition is the collection of tithes; this, again, is identical to political government, which compels the collection of taxes.

Religion isn't some magical series of incantations that can brainwash people into doing things they never would have done otherwise. It's a cultural artifact that distorts a person's already-existing impulses in various ways, but those impulses must already exist for any of that to happen. Religion doesn't cause gospel music or Christian Rock either; musicians do that, and they would probably still be musicians even if they never decided to make religious music (in fact this is usually exactly what happens once musicians figure out that churches are absolutely terrible at paying their bills on time).

You are trying to argue religion is an (or the only?) environmental factor that has no influence on behavior. My existing impulses tell me your post is complete garbage.

Not at all. Religion is one of many systems of belief developed by humans. Inherent in all human creations are flaws found in humans. Sexism and racism did not originate with religion. There are nations which are not at all religious but are rife with sexism and racism. Because racism and sexism do not arise from religion.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Because racism and sexism do not arise from religion.

You phrase that as an absolute statement, which is why it is wrong. You can have racism and sexism rise from non-religious sources. You can also have them rise from religious sources.

 

[Toni]

Because racism and sexism do not arise from religion.

You phrase that as an absolute statement, which is why it is wrong. You can have racism and sexism rise from non-religious sources. You can also have them rise from religious sources.

Can you explain HOW religion gives rise to racism
and sexism?

Can you the origins of religion? Any religion or religion in general?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Easily Toni. What religion would you like to address? Mormonism with how it taught young white people that black people are inferior? The misogyny of Islam? The child soldiers of Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistence Army? Catholics preaching the condoms are worse than AIDS? Genital mutilation? Suicide bombing? Mass suicide like Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones? Need I go on?

How about the fighting of education (evolution)? Fighting life saving treatment (JW blood transfusion ban, stem cell research bans)? Insanely unreasonable positions on abortion (morning after pill is murder??) Need I go on?

How about holding faith as a virtue? Instilling authoritarian obedience to power? Confusing obedience for morality, which is the central message of most of the bible stories? How about the terrorizing of young children with stories of hell?

Yes, some of these things are caused by multiple factors, of which religion is only one (though some of them are solely caused by religion). Yes religion is shaped by people and their flaws, but it in turn shapes new minds. There are many horrible events caused by religion that would NOT have occurred without it.

Just because religion was shaped by some minds doesn't mean it doesn't shape many others. And just because other bad things happen due to programming by other ideologies or social forces, does not excuse religion for the terrible things it causes.

Every time moral progress is being made, there is religion standing in the way.

As Hitch put it, religion poisons everything. It is time for the sane to stand up and call religion for what it is: A delusion and virus of the mind. That we still celebrate in the modern era is a major black mark on our species.

 

[Toni]

Easily Toni. What religion would you like to address? Mormonism with how it taught young white people that black people are inferior? The misogyny of Islam? The child soldiers of Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistence Army? Catholics preaching the condoms are worse than AIDS? Genital mutilation? Suicide bombing? Mass suicide like Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones? Need I go on?

How about the fighting of education (evolution)? Fighting life saving treatment (JW blood transfusion ban, stem cell research bans)? Insanely unreasonable positions on abortion (morning after pill is murder??) Need I go on?

How about holding faith as a virtue? Instilling authoritarian obedience to power? Confusing obedience for morality, which is the central message of most of the bible stories? How about the terrorizing of young children with stories of hell?

Yes, some of these things are caused by multiple factors, of which religion is only one (though some of them are solely caused by religion). Yes religion is shaped by people and their flaws, but it in turn shapes new minds. There are many horrible events caused by religion that would NOT have occurred without it.

Just because religion was shaped by some minds doesn't mean it doesn't shape many others. And just because other bad things happen due to programming by other ideologies or social forces, does not excuse religion for the terrible things it causes.

Every time moral progress is being made, there is religion standing in the way.

As Hitch put it, religion poisons everything. It is time for the sane to stand up and call religion for what it is: A delusion and virus of the mind. That we still celebrate in the modern era is a major black mark on our species.

If you don't have an explanation, just say so.

 

[iolo]

What went on in the deeply racist Bradford area was a direct consequence of the racist division, with the Labour bosses carefully not interfering with the Reserves, and the self-elected 'leaders' of those knowing nothing of the young men who inherited only a confused, drunken contempt for women. Get shot of racism you get shot of all this smelly filth.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It is both a product of and a producer of irrational thinking. It goes both ways. Some people create the system, others learn from the system.

Exactly. And were that not so, if Religion was the mere product of irrational thinking and wasn't a cause and contributor to creating irrational thinking, we would have far more people religious people becoming atheists, and far more atheists becoming religious.

That doesn't follow. Atheists are every bit as capable of irrational thinking as religious people are of rational thinking. For that matter, not all atheists (in fact, I doubt even MOST) reject religion for purely rational reasons.

Religious upbringing instills irrational ideals and ways of thinking.

Is religious upbringing a necessary condition for lifelong irrational thinking? If so, then ALL non-religious people should tend to be more rational in all aspects of life.

Is religious upbringing a sufficient condition for lifelong irrational thinking? If so, then ALL religious people should tend to be irrational in all aspects of life.

But neither of the above bear close scrutiny, so religious upbringing is not a necessary or sufficient condition for lifelong irrational thinking. To be abundantly clear:

Faith. Vicarious redemption. Encouragement of tribalism. Misogyny. Homophobia. And the list goes on.

Are ALL religious people homophobic and misogynistic?

Do ALL non-religious people reject faith and tribalism?

Unless we can collectively answer "yes" to both of the above, your observation is inconsistent with reality and common sense.
It's almost as if this claim of yours has no rational basis

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Which religion involves.

So does Harry Potter fandom and Miley Cyrus concerts. You have no logical basis to connect irrational thinking with religious culture that doesn't apply just as aptly to ANY OTHER aspect of culture. The error is exactly the same: culture is shaped by the thoughts and choices of individuals, not the other way around. People do not acquire their attitudes and biases from religious books, sermons, movies, theories or poems. They acquire them from their parents, siblings, relatives and friends. Doesn't matter whether you're raised by an atheist or a fundamentalist Muslim: if your father, brother and uncles are misogynists, chances are pretty good that you will be one too. If later in life you fall into a peer group that rejects misogyny outright, chances are you will too.

And those people act on those thoughts...

Which is why people, and not thoughts, are to blame. Religious tradition is chock full of complete bullshit that nobody really believes or acts on. The stuff that people DO act on is a matter of habit and custom and that has to do with what kind of person you are in the first place.

And the kind of person you are has to do with your experiences, how you grew up, who you knew, what you went through in life. Unless you grew up in a religious commune where God/Jesus/Allah occupied every waking moment of your life and the lives of the people around you, the majority of your day to day experiences were not religious in nature and your formative memories probably have nothing to do with religious thought. Those experiences color everything you do in life going forward, INCLUDING how you interpret religious beliefs.

Those beliefs do not interpret themselves, nor are they as pervasive in every day life as you seem to be implying.

A person's genetics does contribute to their behaviour, yes, absolutely, but so does their programming. Religion is part of their programming.

Religion is a minuscule part of the average person's "programming" and is actually subject to overriding influences from OTHER aspects of that upbringing. Mainly this is because the capacity to understand religion in any coherent sense generally develops long after a person's baseline character traits have already begun to take shape. By the time you're old enough for religious beliefs to really color your behavior, it's too late for it to matter.

This is one of the reason why new converts often make the worst zealots. A convert is deliberately REJECTING some aspect of his own personality and upbringing he doesn't like, including but not limited to his conscience. With no religious upbringing at all, he will TRY to apply his newfound religion as literally and strictly as he possibly can, usually rejecting his "What the fuck am I doing?" instincts by blaming them on "the lies of Satan" or some such. In such cases, the kind of person who deliberately devotes himself to that sort of self-destructive fuckery is a person with deeper problems than religious belief.

Religion isn't some magical series of incantations that can brainwash people into doing things they never would have done otherwise.

Oh but it can get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do

No, it really can't. Religion doesn't work that way.

What religion CAN do is get people to do the things they ALWAYS WANTED to do if only they had a good excuse. The world is complex, and society doubly so; excuses have always been easy to come by, and religion has always been a popular one.

Do you think that absent any cultural tradition or religious influence people would look at a baby's penis and say "We need to chop that up a bit"?

That's just what I'm talking about: "cultural tradition" and "religious influence" are not the same thing. They're not even that closely related. If you ask most Christian parents, they don't really even know WHY they perform circumcision; they do it because that's just what everyone does, isn't it? Circumcision has exactly ZERO significance in Christianity, but it's a western tradition that is followed anyway because thinking for yourself over every little thing is time consuming and most people only do so when there's something in it for them.

As for religious traditions, religious people obey those traditions PRECISELY to the extent those traditions are convenient for them. The moment they are not, they are rejected or ignored. This is the whole reason why Abrahamic religions used to have all these draconian enforcement methods and physical punishment of sins, because deep down nobody REALLY believes that God is watching them nor does anyone REALLY believe they'll go to hell for their sons. But being publicly shamed by religious authorities, ostracized by your piers, or jailed/killed by morality police is a more tangible threat, and people will obey THOSE authorities to the extent they are unable to avoid them.

But I have had too many Muslims tell me "drinking alcohol is forbidden" over a glass (or bottle) of wine to take your claim seriously, and even the most devout Christians consistently engage in premarital sex.

I would go so far as to say that the overwhelming majority of religious believers only continue to follow their religion because of the need to conform with their chosen peer group. Of the 20 or 30 people i can think of who would describe themselves as Christian, I would be surprised if more than 5 of them ever actually read the Bible. Most of the others are only Christians because their parents and relatives are and it's easier to just say "Amen" at thanksgiving dinner than start a 20 minute debate about how Christianity makes no sense with people who don't really care and aren't going to agree with you anyway.

How about Bacon? You think so many would resist it if not programmed to think it is evil?

I take it you've never met a non-Muslim or non-Jew who refuses to eat pork?

You need to study up on psychology and on cults.

You need to get out of your post-racial hippy commune and study up on EVERYTHING.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Absolutely every single thing you've laid at the door of religion exists as a product of other social institutions.

That about sums it up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Absolutely every single thing you've laid at the door of religion exists as a product of other social institutions.

Yes, and not everyone gets to that point by those other social institutions. Some get there by religion.

Yes, and not everyone gets there by religion. Some get there by other social institutions.

Which means there isn't actually anything unique about religion among those other institutions. There is some OTHER combination of factors in common with all of the people who "get there."

It's really that simple. If religion isn't the ONLY cause, and if religion ALONE isn't a good enough cause, then blaming religion for the problem is irrational.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, it really doesn't. Religion can no more "produce" irrational thinking than a Selena Gomez album can produce terrible music. That is to say religion IS irrational thinking, not an irrational thinker.

Religion cannot actually THINK. That is the provenance of religious PEOPLE, whose thoughts are shaped by their emotions, experiences, biases, prejudices, beliefs and worldviews. We do not blame thoughts for behavior, though, we blame PEOPLE for their behavior.

Religion can produce emotional states and positive/negative reactions in the minds of religious people, which is why religion is not a helpful thing to introduce when dealing with someone who is already irrational or prone to violence.

Again, kind of like alcohol.



The system doesn't have casual power like that. Even when religion was identical with the instruments of the state -- or maybe especially then -- it could only influence behavior through enforcement mechanisms like any other system. But in modern times, nobody blames the LEGALITY of guns for people wanting to own them, and there is no government law saying that everyone HAS to go to a fireworks show on the 4th of July. People do these things because they want to, not because the law says they should. Really, the only aspect of religion that has ever been compulsory regardless of anyone's disposition is the collection of tithes; this, again, is identical to political government, which compels the collection of taxes.

Religion isn't some magical series of incantations that can brainwash people into doing things they never would have done otherwise. It's a cultural artifact that distorts a person's already-existing impulses in various ways, but those impulses must already exist for any of that to happen. Religion doesn't cause gospel music or Christian Rock either; musicians do that, and they would probably still be musicians even if they never decided to make religious music (in fact this is usually exactly what happens once musicians figure out that churches are absolutely terrible at paying their bills on time).

You are trying to argue religion is an (or the only?) environmental factor that has no influence on behavior.

Of course it has influence on behavior. Hell, flipping a light switch on and off in a dark room can influence your behavior.

But this is a thread where multiple people are trying to argue that religion alone is THE most important environmental factor for the development of negative, anti-social personality traits. This is a little like claiming that the Hawthorne Effect can turn people into serial killers (this which would actually be somewhat easier to argue for despite the fact that it's clearly wrong).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Easily Toni. What religion would you like to address? Mormonism with how it taught young white people that black people are inferior? The misogyny of Islam? The child soldiers of Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistence Army? Catholics preaching the condoms are worse than AIDS? Genital mutilation? Suicide bombing? Mass suicide like Heaven's Gate and Jim Jones? Need I go on?

How about the fighting of education (evolution)? Fighting life saving treatment (JW blood transfusion ban, stem cell research bans)? Insanely unreasonable positions on abortion (morning after pill is murder??) Need I go on?

How about holding faith as a virtue? Instilling authoritarian obedience to power? Confusing obedience for morality, which is the central message of most of the bible stories? How about the terrorizing of young children with stories of hell?

Yes, some of these things are caused by multiple factors, of which religion is only one (though some of them are solely caused by religion). Yes religion is shaped by people and their flaws, but it in turn shapes new minds. There are many horrible events caused by religion that would NOT have occurred without it.

Odd because a shitload of posts have been whining about one particular religion.

Every time moral progress is being made, there is religion standing in the way.

Funny. I see a bunch of atheists in the way too.

 

[repoman]

As far as that religion, Islam, one aspect is how it makes adherents align themselves globally though there is no other logical reason to do so.

Take the young african immigrant who ran (luckily very few) people over in Ohio. He was pissed off (rightfully) about the treatment of Muslims in Myanmar and takes out his rage in Ohio. No Islam and I don't see that particular action happening. His sense of belonging to the Ummah turned into a an antilke attack drone. Same could happen for other groups.

But there are other ways for tribal things to happen, sports, politics, race, nation and so on.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As far as that religion, Islam, one aspect is how it makes adherents align themselves globally though there is no other logical reason to do so.

Take the young african immigrant who ran (luckily very few) people over in Ohio. He was pissed off (rightfully) about the treatment of Muslims in Myanmar and takes out his rage in Ohio. No Islam and I don't see that particular action happening. His sense of belonging to the Ummah turned into a an antilke attack drone. Same could happen for other groups.

That's an oversimplification, though. What is it about THIS one person that turns him into an "antlike attack drone" that DIDN'T affect the other 130,000 Muslims in Ohio? Hell, if even just 10% of Muslims were moved by their religion to commit violence there'd be 13,000 "attack drones" in Ohio all causing a shit ton of damage and untold carnage.

So comparing the factors between this case and all the Muslims who DIDN'T run over a bunch of people in Ohio, what DON'T they have in common and what is the relevant difference?

But there are other ways for tribal things to happen, sports, politics, race, nation and so on.

Sure, but nobody ever rioted just because Serena Williams won a tennis match. And while "Soccer riots" are a whole distinct and well studied category of social mayhem, "football riots" in America (that don't involve superbowl victories at least) are surprisingly rare.

Here, again, I'm thinking its cultural and has more to do with peer group expectations than anything else. Soccer fans EXPECT to riot and soccer riots are totally a thing that there's precedent for, and some fans go to soccer matches specifically hoping to get involved in the shenanigans that follows. Football fans in America drive halfway across town with their buddies for games and expect to go home and get shitfaced afterwards (or get shitfaced in the parking lot along with lots of barbecue), so if people start acting too wild the response is "The fuck's your problem?!" and a punch to the face.

Muslims who come from places/families/groups/communities where violence is broadly acceptable will be quicker to employ violence than Muslims who live in suburban middle class neighborhoods in well-patrolled cities. And sometimes, every once in a while, a Muslim from a middle class suburban neighborhood finds a group of people who really want to employ violence and they form a terrorist cell. 99% of the time, that terror cell is an FBI sting operation, but still...

 

[TSwizzle]

It's really that simple. If religion isn't the ONLY cause, and if religion ALONE isn't a good enough cause, then blaming religion for the problem is irrational.

Religion plays a significant part in how religious people behave. It's really that simple. I don't think I have seen anyone state that religion ALONE is the cause. You're full of shit.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Yes, and not everyone gets there by religion. Some get there by other social institutions.

Nobody has said otherwise.

Which means there isn't actually anything unique about religion among those other institutions.

If there was nothing unique about religion we wouldn't be able to recognize it as religion.

If religion isn't the ONLY cause, and if religion ALONE isn't a good enough cause, then blaming religion for the problem is irrational.

So what if it isn't the only cause of something? It would still be a major contributor and cause. It would still be poison. It would still be blameworthy. Your attempt to defend religion from what it is responsible for is disgusting.

 

[skepticalbip]

If there was nothing unique about religion we wouldn't be able to recognize it as religion.

That's silly. Groups of Sunni and groups of Shia have obviously tried to exterminate each other in the many conflicts they have had because of bigotry caused by genetic differences.

 

[laughing dog]

Nobody has said otherwise.

Which means there isn't actually anything unique about religion among those other institutions.

If there was nothing unique about religion we wouldn't be able to recognize it as religion.

It is obvious in the context, Crazy Eddie means nothing unique in those particular terms.

[

So what if it isn't the only cause of something? It would still be a major contributor and cause. It would still be poison. It would still be blameworthy. Your attempt to defend religion from what it is responsible for is disgusting.

No one is defending religion. Crazy Eddie is trying to get you to see that your argument is irrational.

The argument is that if religion did not exist, the same bigotry and irrationality would exist, just under a different aegis. In otherwords, the names might change, but the story (in terms of bigotry and irrational thinking) would stay the same. For example, your posts on this subject are evidence of the validity of that argument.

 

[blastula]

No, religion is not the only factor, but it is a very powerful one. Part of its power is its high social privilege which includes getting a free pass or protection from criticism, even so much so that friggin' atheists will go to far lengths to defend it.